Conquer Club

vtmarik wrote:Oh no, don't you dodge this question Jay. You're the one who said that the angels were created with no free will, then Lucifer decides to rebel and 33% of the angels in heaven decide to go with him.

You can't have it both ways Jay, did they have free will or didn't they?

YES! While we are at it, here are a few other fairy tale questions you MUST answer:

• Did Santa CHOOSE to live at the North Pole or was it thrust upon him by Satan?
• Do leprechauns really live under the threat of having their pot-o-gold stolen?
• Sasquatch..."Son of Adam or Misunderstood Monkey"?
• Loch Ness Monster - Decendent of the evil "Eden Serpent" or Pet of Satan?

Enquiring Minds Want To Know!!!

~ Most likely satin. Shittiest job in the world
~ Leprachauns(sp) are gready little bastards who couldn't give a shit
~misunderstood monkey, aka, dugcarr
~Just an old prehistoric fish

Backglass wrote:YES! While we are at it, here are a few other fairy tale questions you MUST answer:

• Did Santa CHOOSE to live at the North Pole or was it thrust upon him by Satan?
• Do leprechauns really live under the threat of having their pot-o-gold stolen?
• Sasquatch..."Son of Adam or Misunderstood Monkey"?
• Loch Ness Monster - Decendent of the evil "Eden Serpent"?

Enquiring Minds Want To Know!!!

Don't give him a way out of the question Backglass, he'll respond only to you and skip my question.

That being said, you do make interesting points.

vtmarik wrote:Don't give him a way out of the question Backglass, he'll respond only to you and skip my question.

Ahhh you are right. He is easily distracted from the tough questions.

My apologies.

I found this debate slightly un-fair as it seems that there is one person on one side and at least 4 or 5 on the other.
Does anyone really care if those angels had free will, were retarded (no offense) or were adams crack whores? From the religious point of view, those details, wich I know are many, are just like a metal gear on Solid snakes way(they are nothing). Those inconsistencies only prove that the bible and any other holy book for that matter were written by human minds. Are they a valid argument against those who follow the bible word by word? most surely, but anyone with enough free will to know that he shouldnt live his life word by word from anithing or anyone, wether its the american president, the queen of england, the pope or britney spears should know to pass on these details.
These inconsistencies only prove that the bible was written by humans and because of that it shouldnt be taken literally. Besides, times changes. That slavery thing for example must have been okey for that time, but now its kinda bad.

Foede wrote:I found this debate slightly un-fair as it seems that there is one person on one side and at least 4 or 5 on the other.
Does anyone really care if those angels had free will, were retarded (no offense) or were adams crack whores? From the religious point of view, those details, wich I know are many, are just like a metal gear on Solid snakes way(they are nothing). Those inconsistencies only prove that the bible and any other holy book for that matter were written by human minds. Are they a valid argument against those who follow the bible word by word? most surely, but anyone with enough free will to know that he shouldnt live his life word by word from anithing or anyone, wether its the american president, the queen of england, the pope or britney spears should know to pass on these details.
These inconsistencies only prove that the bible was written by humans and because of that it shouldnt be taken literally. Besides, times changes. That slavery thing for example must have been okey for that time, but now its kinda bad.

Only thing making this debate unfair is that there are a few articulate, rational, open minded people (myself not necessarily included) trying to have an intellectual two way discussion with an emotional, irrational, dogmatic and slightly erratic person who wants to preach fire and brimstone followed by little smiley pictures...and considers that rational debate....so there (just kidding)

jay, there are instances where god regrets things in the bible, for example he regretted having Saul made king if I remember correctly.

vtmarik wrote:

vtmarik wrote:

jay_a2j wrote:All the angels had free will at that time to choose to go with Lucifer or stay with God. The 1/3 are the ones who went with Lucifer.

But you said God created the Angels with no free will.

Which is it Jay?

Oh no, don't you dodge this question Jay. You're the one who said that the angels were created with no free will, then Lucifer decides to rebel and 33% of the angels in heaven decide to go with him.

You can't have it both ways Jay, did they have free will or didn't they?

Actually the Bible doesn't say wether angels were created with or without free will (It was an assumption on my part that they were created without free will and later given free will). They had to choose between Lucifer and God so at this point they obviously had free will. It is possible that they were created with free will but that there was no sin yet so they would not disobey God. Angels, like humans were created to worship God. How are we doing with that?

MeDeFe wrote:jay, there are instances where god regrets things in the bible, for example he regretted having Saul made king if I remember correctly.

Chaper and verse please.

you haven't answered my question jay, and i would be... interested to know... (twirls moustache evilly)

We're not doing with that at all, because it's pure speculation.

Anyway, here's the logic according to you:
angels were created with or without free will [so far so good]
If they didn't have it they got it at some point
There might have been no sin and then there was sin at some point
The sin was choosing Lucifer instead of god
angels and humans were created to worship god [now what does that have to do with the rest?]


You base this on nothing but your imagination. I can't remember the bible mentioning angels being created either. They just turn up at some points and save the day or deliver a message. If you want to discuss the bible with us, at least USE the bible then.

i like google

Chapter 15, verse 10:

Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel saying, "I regret that
I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following
Me, and has not carried out My commands."
And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the
LORD all night.
And Samuel rose early in the morning to meet Saul;
and it was told Samuel, saying, "Saul came to
Carmel, [not Mt.
Carmel up by Galilee.
This was down 7-1/2 miles south of Hebron], and behold, he set up a monument for himself, [here's good old
Saul again] then turned and proceeded on down to Gilgal."

http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/roe-david-2.html

SirSebstar wrote:Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel saying, "I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following
Me

Waaaait a minute. Didnt he already know that this would happen before? Isnt he/she/it the all knowing, all seeing, future telling god?

After all:

jay_a2j wrote:God is perfect.......To say Gods word is flawed, is to say God isn't that bright, that He would give his word to man who would turn around and mess it up.

How can this be jay? Did he make a mistake? Or is he just lieing? If he is 100% perfect and the bible is 100% true then how can you regret anything? After all, he knew what he was doing...didnt he?

jay_a2j wrote:Actually the Bible doesn't say wether angels were created with or without free will (It was an assumption on my part that they were created without free will and later given free will). They had to choose between Lucifer and God so at this point they obviously had free will. It is possible that they were created with free will but that there was no sin yet so they would not disobey God. Angels, like humans were created to worship God. How are we doing with that?

Deflection, rationalization, and the hidden response? There is no verse or chapter in the Bible that says explicitly if the Angels were given free will or not.

If the angels had free will, why create humans? Obviously he's already got a group that can choose to love him or walk away from him with their own minds. Thus the rationalization for creating Man goes away.

If the angels didn't have free will, then Lucifer could never have rebelled. Lucifer was devoid of free will when he "decided" to try and take over Heaven.

I submit to you that based on these conclusions, and the fact that there are no verses in the Bible that explain this one way or another that the Book is not the perfect Word of God but was, in fact, written by man without any guidance from the divine. Glaring oversights in plot lines like this one are clearly the work of an imperfect being.

vtmarik wrote:

jay_a2j wrote:Actually the Bible doesn't say wether angels were created with or without free will (It was an assumption on my part that they were created without free will and later given free will). They had to choose between Lucifer and God so at this point they obviously had free will. It is possible that they were created with free will but that there was no sin yet so they would not disobey God. Angels, like humans were created to worship God. How are we doing with that?

Deflection, rationalization, and the hidden response? There is no verse or chapter in the Bible that says explicitly if the Angels were given free will or not.

If the angels had free will, why create humans? Obviously he's already got a group that can choose to love him or walk away from him with their own minds. Thus the rationalization for creating Man goes away.

If the angels didn't have free will, then Lucifer could never have rebelled. Lucifer was devoid of free will when he "decided" to try and take over Heaven.

I submit to you that based on these conclusions, and the fact that there are no verses in the Bible that explain this one way or another that the Book is not the perfect Word of God but was, in fact, written by man without any guidance from the divine. Glaring oversights in plot lines like this one are clearly the work of an imperfect being.

Ya, ok. The defense objects to such speculative evidence. The prosecution is submitting opinion rather than fact.


Judge : Ojection Sustained.

jay_a2j wrote:

vtmarik wrote:

jay_a2j wrote:Actually the Bible doesn't say wether angels were created with or without free will (It was an assumption on my part that they were created without free will and later given free will). They had to choose between Lucifer and God so at this point they obviously had free will. It is possible that they were created with free will but that there was no sin yet so they would not disobey God. Angels, like humans were created to worship God. How are we doing with that?

Deflection, rationalization, and the hidden response? There is no verse or chapter in the Bible that says explicitly if the Angels were given free will or not.

If the angels had free will, why create humans? Obviously he's already got a group that can choose to love him or walk away from him with their own minds. Thus the rationalization for creating Man goes away.

If the angels didn't have free will, then Lucifer could never have rebelled. Lucifer was devoid of free will when he "decided" to try and take over Heaven.

I submit to you that based on these conclusions, and the fact that there are no verses in the Bible that explain this one way or another that the Book is not the perfect Word of God but was, in fact, written by man without any guidance from the divine. Glaring oversights in plot lines like this one are clearly the work of an imperfect being.

Ya, ok. The defense objects to such speculative evidence. The prosecution is submitting opinion rather than fact.


Judge : Ojection Sustained.

lol....speculative evidence?......a bit like your blinkered interpretation of the Bible, right?

Backglass wrote:

SirSebstar wrote:Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel saying, "I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following
Me

Waaaait a minute. Didnt he already know that this would happen before? Isnt he/she/it the all knowing, all seeing, future telling god?

After all:

jay_a2j wrote:God is perfect.......To say Gods word is flawed, is to say God isn't that bright, that He would give his word to man who would turn around and mess it up.

How can this be jay? Did he make a mistake? Or is he just lieing? If he is 100% perfect and the bible is 100% true then how can you regret anything? After all, he knew what he was doing...didnt he?

No dodging this one thumpers.

Answers please.

Backglass wrote:

Backglass wrote:

SirSebstar wrote:Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel saying, "I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following
Me

Waaaait a minute. Didnt he already know that this would happen before? Isnt he/she/it the all knowing, all seeing, future telling god?

After all:

jay_a2j wrote:God is perfect.......To say Gods word is flawed, is to say God isn't that bright, that He would give his word to man who would turn around and mess it up.

How can this be jay? Did he make a mistake? Or is he just lieing? If he is 100% perfect and the bible is 100% true then how can you regret anything? After all, he knew what he was doing...didnt he?

No dodging this one thumpers.

Answers please.

Yes he knew! But stop taking scripture out of context! When God does something there is a reason for it! It may not be evident to man.... but there is a purpose! Merry Christmas backglass!

jay_a2j wrote:It may not be evident to man.... but there is a purpose!

And that my friend is what called "Bullshit". Please back into your corner!

And Merry Christmas to you too Jay.

This is surely easy to reconcile. I'm surprised jay hasn't.
If man's actions are knowable, they are pre-ordained and we have no free-will. Jay's imaginary god gave us free-will and therefore can regret his decision to make Saul king, because he didn't know what Saul would do.

mightyal wrote:This is surely easy to reconcile. I'm surprised jay hasn't.
If man's actions are knowable, they are pre-ordained and we have no free-will. Jay's imaginary god gave us free-will and therefore can regret his decision to make Saul king, because he didn't know what Saul would do.

God knows what will happen in the future (He is all knowing). But He dosen't control what WE do. He can see the results of our actions before they happen. He knows what we will do before we do it. He does not control what we do.

JAY hellu first and foremost think on it, we have free will, to be able to see what will happen for us, he would have to sit there and see every single way it could ever possibly happen, meaning many many many different things to see, one life time and all its options would take forever, and he would have no reason to regret as he knew it would happen, and let it happen, didint mess with other things in life, like make a earthquake to mess with things so maybe the world will change enough so that it wont happen...


if you can see whats going to happen, you have no reason to be regretful... had the chance to mess with other things then free will to change the ideas or possiblities back into your odds of other things.. sooo ya.... God would be stupid to be regretful if god could know what would already happen...

jay_a2j wrote:

mightyal wrote:This is surely easy to reconcile. I'm surprised jay hasn't.
If man's actions are knowable, they are pre-ordained and we have no free-will. Jay's imaginary god gave us free-will and therefore can regret his decision to make Saul king, because he didn't know what Saul would do.

God knows what will happen in the future (He is all knowing). But He dosen't control what WE do. He can see the results of our actions before they happen. He knows what we will do before we do it. He does not control what we do.

So according to this your God can see all the crimes, injustices, evil and cruelty that are going to be inflicted and doesn't raise a finger.....gotta love that God!

Mirak wrote:

jay_a2j wrote:

mightyal wrote:This is surely easy to reconcile. I'm surprised jay hasn't.
If man's actions are knowable, they are pre-ordained and we have no free-will. Jay's imaginary god gave us free-will and therefore can regret his decision to make Saul king, because he didn't know what Saul would do.

God knows what will happen in the future (He is all knowing). But He dosen't control what WE do. He can see the results of our actions before they happen. He knows what we will do before we do it. He does not control what we do.

So according to this your God can see all the crimes, injustices, evil and cruelty that are going to be inflicted and doesn't raise a finger.....gotta love that God!

Its called free will.

morph wrote: he would have to sit there and see every single way it could ever possibly happen,

No, He already knows how it will happen. He knows what you will type in your next post..... and he knew if before you were born!