Conquer Club

saxitoxin wrote:

GabonX wrote: You believe Israeli Jews, Zionists, and Jews in other countries who support Israel, are the worst people in the world. You believe these people should have their property confiscated based on "support to Zionist organizations." You believe the primary cause of problems in the Middle East and perhaps the world, is Zionism. You believe Zionism is an extreme religious movement and dismiss any connection to a secular culture or consideration of refuge populations. You believe Israelis and Zionists consider the rest of humanity their slaves and treat them as such.

You believe Palestinians share no fault for the conflict between them and Israel. In addition to confiscation of "Zionist property" (please advise if you object to the term), Israel and other responsible countries must compensate the Palestinians who will then be satisfied and will not use the money to take up arms against Jews. Israel must integrate with the populations of Gaza and the West Bank and open immigration to Arabs and Muslims. Israel must do this without "using negotiation as a stalling tactic" lest they be "drowned in the peace well."

Various proclamations you sited adequately guarantee the security of the Jewish population of Israel in accepting the Arab terms. Israel must unilaterally disarm and must not delay in accepting these terms.

correct

You crossed those things out because they're all just Zionists to you?

Multiple crowds of people gathered today in front of Israel's lair* in San Francisco (AKA Israeli consulate), while others gathered in front of the downtown Nordstrom's which still sells Israeli-made products, to protest the latest Israeli terrorist attacks against children. No one appeared supporting Israel. The protest was one of more than 2 dozen in the U.S. alone! The bulk of action against Israel is planned for the weekend.



Last week, in Toronto, a couple extremist Zionists affiliated with the Jewish Defense League (a group linked to organized crime and drug smuggling in the U.S.) tried to provoke protesters carrying the Palestinian and Canadian flags by displaying the Israeli flag. Fighting erupted as the pro-Palestinian group attempted to remove it so as to enforce Canada's Human Rights Act which prohibits the public display of symbols of hate.



* The U.S. Government Accounting Office has reported that Israel “conducts the most aggressive espionage operation against the United States of any U.S. ally.”

If Israel disarmed they would suffer a bloodletting that would make the holocaust pale in comparison.

Saxi ever read Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

warmonger1981 wrote:Saxi ever read Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

A work of fiction written to blame jews for a variety of ills. It is disseminated to promote hatred of the jews.It has been proven to be all lies.Adolf and his boys used it to turn the people of Germany into mass murderers.

+1

With his views on Jews....just thought ...you know..antisemitic.

Lol i'm sure he keeps it on his bedside table as a reference.

a6mzero wrote:If Israel disarmed they would suffer a bloodletting that would make the holocaust pale in comparison.

Yes, that is the position of billy07, Pat Robertson, and Benjamin Netanyahu. But it's empty scaremongering by apartheid supporters not based on facts.

First, Joe Cirincione has stated Israel's nuclear weapons puts it in greater danger because it incentivizes other states to arm themselves with nuclear weapons and that a disarmed Israel would actually be safer. Besides, Arab peoples have only ever wanted peace with Israel and have never behaved aggressively toward it except in response to direct provocation.

Second, Israel has stated - quoted liberally in the Sampson Option by Seymour Hersch - it plans to use its nuclear weapons to take the world down with it if (including suicidal attacks against European capital cities) it were ever attacked and in danger of losing. So, while it would be unfortunate if Israel were overrun, that's a chance I'm willing to take as it's less expensive than a nuclear-armed Israel whose weapons are in the hands of religious extremists who believe they have a biblical destiny (Israel and ISIS are basically identical - they even have the same enemies [Syria, Iran, and Hezbollah] - just their gods are spelled differently).

saxitoxin wrote:

a6mzero wrote:If Israel disarmed they would suffer a bloodletting that would make the holocaust pale in comparison.

. Besides, Arab peoples have only ever wanted peace with Israel and have never behaved aggressively toward it except in response to direct provocation.

ROFL

a6mzero wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:

a6mzero wrote:If Israel disarmed they would suffer a bloodletting that would make the holocaust pale in comparison.

. Besides, Arab peoples have only ever wanted peace with Israel and have never behaved aggressively toward it except in response to direct provocation.

ROFL

That's correct.

700 to ~1900 (1100 years): no conflict between Arabs and Hebrews

1948: Israel unilaterally declares independence in violation of the UN partition proposal; the Arab League sends a letter to the UN providing the legally required notification that the league is required to respond to the violation of the negotiations - the Arab Legion, under the command of Sir John Bagot Glubb, enters Israel to enforce international law ... Israel wins by committing a variety of atrocities and violations of the rules of war

1956: Israel launches a surprise attack on Egypt and is the first to fire; Egypt defeats Israel with U.S. and Soviet assistance

1967: Israel launches a surprise attack on Egypt and is the first to fire; Israel takes several colonial possessions and refuses to return them despite UN demands

1973: Egypt and Syria fire first but in a conflict whose stated objective is to recover the land captured by Israel and declared by the UN to be occupied illegally by the Zionists

1981: Israel bombs Iraq, despite not having been attacked by Iraq, in violation of international law

2007: Israel bombs Syria, despite not having been attacked by Syria, in violation of international law

In 67 Nassar expelled UN peacekeepers from the Sinai , declared full mobilization, massed his troops on the border and closed the Straits of Tiran blocking 90% of Israeli shipping. I guess they were supposed to wait until they ran out of oil before defending themselves.

In 48 the UN partitioned Palestine.The arabs didn't like it and they ALL invaded.

In 73 Sadat started the war hoping to quell the rising domestic problems he was facing. Syria started hoping to become the dominant power in the middle east.

I just arrived in Israel yesterday after spending four days in Jordan. Later on I'll continue on to Turkey and Egypt before flying back to Canada. This is my first time in the Middle East; it's quite an adventure!

The contrast between Israel and Jordan is striking. It's the difference between a first world country and a third world country. Israel is like any other European country or Canadian/US province/state; Jordan is like Mexico. Keep in mind that Jordan is one of the most stable countries in the region right now. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my time there, but there's no question of which country here shares our ideals and values.

Saxi, you seem to have a weird fetish for criticizing Israel but I'd like you to come over here and experience some of these countries first-hand. Maybe that would help you change your mind. We agree on many other subjects but in this area, you're so far out it's hard to know where to begin a discussion. It's like you've been reading any anti-semitic literature you can lay your hands on and never opened your eyes to what's happening on the ground. I actually feel sorry for you. Maybe I'm being a little hard on you but I truly believe you're out to lunch on this one.

Ray Rider wrote:I just arrived in Israel yesterday after spending four days in Jordan. Later on I'll continue on to Turkey and Egypt before flying back to Canada. This is my first time in the Middle East; it's quite an adventure!

The contrast between Israel and Jordan is striking. It's the difference between a first world country and a third world country. Israel is like any other European country or Canadian/US province/state; Jordan is like Mexico. Keep in mind that Jordan is one of the most stable countries in the region right now. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my time there, but there's no question of which country here shares our ideals and values.

Saxi, you seem to have a weird fetish for criticizing Israel but I'd like you to come over here and experience some of these countries first-hand. Maybe that would help you change your mind. We agree on many other subjects but in this area, you're so far out it's hard to know where to begin a discussion. It's like you've been reading any anti-semitic literature you can lay your hands on and never opened your eyes to what's happening on the ground. I actually feel sorry for you. Maybe I'm being a little hard on you but I truly believe you're out to lunch on this one.

I don't think his point was that Israel was a third world country. It's that they achieved their success by stepping on the rights of Palestinians.

-TG

Ray Rider wrote: The contrast between Israel and Jordan is striking. It's the difference between a first world country and a third world country. Israel is like any other European country or Canadian/US province/state; Jordan is like Mexico.

I bet Savannah, Georgia in 1859 was lovely, too, with the sprawling country estates and refined society.

That said, have a good trip.

http://freebeacon.com/national-security ... irstrikes/

Hamas’ Interior Ministry has ordered residents of the Gaza Strip to remain in their houses if they are about to be bombed by the Israelis, a move that effectively turns citizens into human shields and is intentionally meant to boost the casualty rate, according to a copy of the order published by Hamas.

Israel warns Gaza residents of air strikes before they take place so innocent civilians have time to flee and seek shelter.

The latest Hamas order that citizens ignore Israel’s warnings and stay put is a clear effort by the terror group to increase the death count and apply pressure on Israel to cease its military campaign meant to end Hamas’s attacks.

It got into the 90's F again here today.


--Andy

Metsfanmax wrote:http://freebeacon.com/national-security/hamas-orders-civilians-to-die-in-israeli-airstrikes/

Hamas’ Interior Ministry has ordered residents of the Gaza Strip to remain in their houses if they are about to be bombed by the Israelis, a move that effectively turns citizens into human shields and is intentionally meant to boost the casualty rate, according to a copy of the order published by Hamas.

Israel warns Gaza residents of air strikes before they take place so innocent civilians have time to flee and seek shelter.

The latest Hamas order that citizens ignore Israel’s warnings and stay put is a clear effort by the terror group to increase the death count and apply pressure on Israel to cease its military campaign meant to end Hamas’s attacks.

Interesting article; thanks for sharing.

Now, let's put on our thinking caps.

The conclusion that Hamas wants Palestinian civilians to die because Hamas told them to stay inside their homes is not warranted until further information is gathered:

1. What's the chance of dying from an Israeli airstrike nearby one's home v. dying from the flying debris whilst running outside? How about the chance of being trampled to death by other panicky Palestinians?

2. How much time does one have to evacuate an area when one gets a text message? If it's an hour, then Hamas can simply move their stuff out of harm's way before the airstrike comes. If it's less, then more civilians die in the streets from the airstrike and the flying debris.

3. Do the Israelis mention exactly what area is being hit? Are we talking about one city block or will the strike occur somewhere in the neighborhood?
(Again, the more accurate the information, the better the chance that Hamas has to evade it, so why would the Israelis help Hamas?)

4. How reliable is cell phone and internet service in an area that's being bombarded?

5. Do the Israelis use jamming technologies to prevent Hamas from intercepting Israeli air commands and from effectively communicating with other Hamas units? Does this technology hamper the chances of the Palestinian civilians receiving the evacuation notices?

6. In short, how many messages are actually received on time?? If it's windy, the paper notices could fly into other neighborhoods, which then evacuate into areas being bombarded. Who cares if the Israeli governments sends evacuation notices because good intentions are pointless if good outcomes aren't attained (this is a major point which the author fails to ponder).


7. What about the credible commitment problem? If the Chinese sent you a text message that they're gonna airstrike your neighborhood, would you believe them? Why would Palestinians believe a government which has embargoed them, thereby drastically increasing the prices of basic commodities? Why believe a government which has killed people you know and has caused you great misery for decades? (Seriously.)

8. Do the Israelis actually hit the targets which they've told to evacuate? (or is the evacuation notice given over such a large area that the Israelis can hide behind 'plausible deniability'?) How honest are governments to their enemies/the people which they're subjugating?


9. What about the irresponsibility of the Israeli prohibition on reinforced concrete? Buildings are more resilient from natural disasters and bombings when built with such materials. The Isrealis have (un)intentionally caused greater civilian deaths with their prohibition. Again, why would any Palestinian believe their text messages?

Metsfanmax wrote:http://freebeacon.com/national-security/hamas-orders-civilians-to-die-in-israeli-airstrikes/

Hamas’ Interior Ministry has ordered residents of the Gaza Strip to remain in their houses if they are about to be bombed by the Israelis, a move that effectively turns citizens into human shields and is intentionally meant to boost the casualty rate, according to a copy of the order published by Hamas.

Israel warns Gaza residents of air strikes before they take place so innocent civilians have time to flee and seek shelter.

The latest Hamas order that citizens ignore Israel’s warnings and stay put is a clear effort by the terror group to increase the death count and apply pressure on Israel to cease its military campaign meant to end Hamas’s attacks.

Interesting article; thanks for sharing.

Now, let's put on our thinking caps.

The conclusion that Hamas wants Palestinian civilians to die because Hamas told them to stay inside their homes is not warranted until further information is gathered:

1. What's the chance of dying from an Israeli airstrike nearby one's home v. dying from the flying debris whilst running outside? How about the chance of being trampled to death by other panicky Palestinians?

2. How much time does one have to evacuate an area when one gets a text message? If it's an hour, then Hamas can simply move their stuff out of harm's way before the airstrike comes. If it's less, then more civilians die in the streets from the airstrike and the flying debris.

3. Do the Israelis mention exactly what area is being hit? Are we talking about one city block or will the strike occur somewhere in the neighborhood?

4. How reliable is cell phone and internet service in an area that's being bombarded?

5. Do the Israelis use jamming technologies to prevent Hamas from intercepting Israeli air commands and from effectively communicating with other Hamas units? Does this technology hamper the chances of the Palestinian civilians receiving the evacuation notices?

6. In short, how many messages are actually received on time?? If it's windy, the paper notices could fly into other neighborhoods, which then evacuate into areas being bombarded. Who cares if the Israeli governments sends evacuation notices because good intentions are pointless if good outcomes aren't attained (this is a major point which the author fails to ponder).


7. What about the credible commitment problem? If the Chinese sent you a text message that they're gonna airstrike your neighborhood, would you believe them? Why would Palestinians believe a government which has embargoed them, thereby drastically increasing the prices of basic commodities? Why believe a government which has killed people you know and has caused you great misery for decades? (Seriously.)

8. What about the irresponsibility of the Israeli prohibition on reinforced concrete? Buildings are more resilient from natural disasters and bombings when built with such materials. The Isrealis have (un)intentionally caused greater civilian deaths with their prohibition. Again, why would any Palestinian believe their text messages?

Here's another angle: let's grant that Hamas wants more of their civilians to die. Is that believable? Why do you think so?

1. How does killing one's civilians maximize the Hamas government's revenues?

2. What's the marginal benefit of a civilian killed by an airstrike? E.g. would Hamas be materially and non-monetarily satisfied if 1000 civilians died? How about 2000? What about 2 million? Surely, there's some limit here (where the marginal costs become greater than the marginal benefit). If this limit is hit by Israeli airstrikes killing civilians--regardless of what Hamas tells the people to do, then wouldn't Hamas not need to implement some odd policy to get more civilians killed? Surely, 200 dead civilians is a story in itself--even 1000. Does Hamas really need to help Israeli in killing Palestinian civilians in order to attain some perverted, ulterior goal? (I don't think so).

3. If you believe that Hamas is intentionally trying to kill more of their civilians, then how do you know that you're not subject to the "Fundamental Attribution Error"? FAE is when one tends to attribute the behavior of others as due to dispositional causes (e.g. personality, characteristics, intentions) while one's own behavior is attributed to situational causes (e.g. limited choices, environmental constraints, necessity).

e.g. "Hamas wants its civilians to die because they're irrational/crazy and they don't care. Israel faces serious constraints when bombing crucial targets in Gaza, so collateral damage is necessary." (Ever see that logic repeated anywhere? Think about the possibility of FAE next time).

If I had to guess, the evacuation notice program is really just a marketing tactic to convince Isrealis and also the West that the Israeli government really, really, really cares about minimizing civilian deaths. Has the Israeli government conducted any proper study to determine how effective this program is? How severely, if at all, do they punish their own people for bombing the wrong targets or for sending notices to the wrong areas? (C'mon... are governments the epitome of proper reward-and-punishment systems for killing enemy civilians?)

Would a country which allegedly cares so much about civilians perpetuate an embargo that impoverishes and kills the very same people? Denying people medicine and basic goods (or at least restricting their supply so that prices are very high) for years has been crushing and killing these people. Does such a policy convince you that the Israeli government really cares about Palestinian civilians in Gaza City?

Let's get real.

Metsfanmax wrote:http://freebeacon.com/national-security ... irstrikes/

Hamas’ Interior Ministry has ordered residents of the Gaza Strip to remain in their houses if they are about to be bombed by the Israelis, a move that effectively turns citizens into human shields and is intentionally meant to boost the casualty rate, according to a copy of the order published by Hamas.

Israel's advice to its own citizens during a Hamas rocket barrage in 2012 ...

Israeli authorities also urged the roughly one million Israelis who live in the south to stay indoors or close to fortified shelters.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/ ... CV20120623

The Free Beacon article is typical of hasbara crap. Anything that would be normal or prudent advice in the west (i.e. "don't stand in the middle of the street or congregate at your local electrical sub-station during an air raid") is given an insidious spin to promote the racist Evangelical meme that Arabs value human life less. The same article notes that Hamas has begged the U.S.-backed dictator in Egypt to open its border to allow the evacuation of civilians from Gaza to escape the Israeli ethnic cleansing operation. How would asking Egypt to help women and children escape the Israeli bombing range support a so-called "human shield" strategy?

BigBallinStalin wrote:If I had to guess, the evacuation notice program is really just a marketing tactic to convince Isrealis and also the West that the Israeli government really, really, really cares about minimizing civilian deaths.

Yes, exactly! Where does Israeli expect they'll evacuate to? They have sealed the border with Gaza and built a 30-foot concrete and barbed wire wall. They have a flotilla of missile corvettes off the coast. They have banned flights out of Gaza. Egypt has sealed its border. The Gaza Strip is smaller than the city of Denver with people virtually stacked on top of each other. There's no sprawling countryside to which to flee. Is Israel calling on people to evacuate by tunneling through the center of the Earth? The Gaza Strip is an Israeli shooting gallery. It's horrible.

It's unreal people in the U.S. just gobble this insane propaganda up without a second thought.

Mass peace protests against the Israeli aggression continue to erupt around the world. Max Blumenthal delivered a powerful speech in New York today following which protesters rallied outside stores that dare to still stock Israeli made products.

"Because I am a Jew who happens to not like Israel ... I have been labeled an anti-Semite. We are not the extremists. The extremists are the people who believe in an ethnically pure Jewish state."