Zimmerman vs. DMX - Boxing Match?

[saxitoxin]

Much has been said about the racial issues surrounding the death of 17 year old Black victim Trayvon Martin, but little is being said concerning the race of the shooter, George Zimmerman, who is Hispanic. Before everyone rushes to judgment this part of the issue should be addressed.

What was Martin’s mind-set that caused him to run away and then physically engage with Zimmerman after being cornered? Why would Zimmerman shoot him? How could this horrible tragedy have happened?

As the facts that are known about this case are closely examined, glimpses of the thought processes of both Zimmerman and Martin begin to emerge.

First, let us try to see things from George Zimmerman’s view by looking at the transcript of his phone call to the police that night. . (Note: Portions of this transcript have been removed to highlight key issues.)

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...

Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy...This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something...

Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black...Now he's just staring at me. Yeah, now he's coming towards me. He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.

Dispatcher: Late teens ok.

Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.

The paranoia in Zimmerman is tangible. But the above bits of transcript are important because they let us know that Zimmerman got a very close look at Martin. Close enough to know that he had “button on his shirt” and that he was a teenager. Martin also got a very close look at Zimmerman. Zimmerman said: “He’s just staring at me” and “He’s checking me out.” As Zimmerman could see that Martin was Black, it is likely that Martin could see that Zimmerman was Hispanic.

Trayvon Martin had every right to be in the neighborhood. He was visiting his Father who is a resident of that gated community. As a guest, Trayvon should have been given full courtesy and protection from George Zimmerman and the Neighborhood Watch program. But the fact is that while he belonged there he was still a guest. He wasn’t from Sanford. He was from Miami.

Trayvon Martin lived in Miami-Dade County and attended Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School. (The High School he attended is by race 41% Hispanic, 29% White non-Hispanic, 28% Black, and 0.1% Asian.) A simple search of the internet will reveal the Latin Syndicate’s largest and most violent gang is in Miami-Dade County where Trayvon lived. (See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2vRotzto3o) He must have known or heard about the Hispanic gangs operating in his area. The majority of students in his High School were Hispanic. Perhaps some belong to these gangs.

Knowing this, we can imagine things through Trayvon Martin’s eyes as he looks back at the Hispanic man checking him out. While Zimmerman was describing Martin to the police, Trayvon would also have been assessing Zimmerman: How is he dressed? Does he have any visible tattoos? Why is this Hispanic guy staring at me? Is he a gang member? Am I on his “turf”?”

We know what Martin was wearing that night because Zimmerman described him to the police in his phone call, but what was Zimmerman wearing? This is important to know. We can see from the police photo that Zimmerman looks Hispanic and has an ear ring, but what else did he have on? Does he have tattoos? Could he fit the profile?

Zimmerman: Okay. These a**holes they always get away...S**t he's running.

Dispatcher: Are you following him? Zimmerman: Yeah

Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Zimmerman: Ok

(Section of transcript removed here where dispatcher gets Zimmerman’s name and location where he can meet with officers when they arrive.)

Martin begins to run and Zimmerman gives chase. When the dispatcher asks if Zimmerman is following Martin he says: “Yeah.” When told by the dispatcher that “we don’t need you to do that” Zimmerman says: “OK” and appears to comply. What happens next in the conversation is the dispatcher gets directions and Zimmerman’s contact information, but mixed into this are two very important bits of information offered by Zimmerman:

Zimmerman: He ran... I don't know where this kid is...

If Zimmerman did continue to chase Martin while giving the dispatcher the contact information and directions it is not clear, but we do know that for a time he lost sight of Martin and that he did not know where he went. While Zimmerman was giving the contact information to the dispatcher it is likely that he kept walking to a place where he thought Martin would be.

A sad fact here is that Zimmerman calls Martin “This kid”. This becomes important as we postulate on the events that soon take place when Zimmerman finds and confronts Martin.

Did Trayvon Martin think Zimmerman was a Latin gang member? Is this why he ran?
This would help explain the conversation Trayvon was having on his cell phone at that moment with a girlfriend back in Miami. The girl has been reported to say Martin told her that “someone was following him and that he was trying to get away.” It is obvious that Trayvon was afraid of Zimmerman. She advised him to run, which he then did. Not long after she overheard a confrontation something like this:

Martin: Why are you following me?

Zimmerman: What are you doing here?

Then the same questions are repeated with the voices escalating:

Martin: Why are you following me?

Zimmerman: What are you doing here?

Then the girl heard what sounded like a shove and the phone went dead or the earpiece was knocked out of Martin’s ear. Zimmerman told the police a fight began where he feared for his life. Zimmerman said he screamed for help but nobody came.

From what we know from the statements of Martin and Zimmerman, we can postulate on what they may have been thinking in the moments before the fight began.

When Martin asked: “Why are you following me?
Zimmerman would be thinking: “You’re just a kid who is up to no good… I am the authority figure here…I’m not answerable to you! … You need to answer to me!” So he did not identify himself as the Captain of the Neighborhood Watch.
Instead Zimmerman shot back: “What are you doing here?”
This is exactly how a gang member would challenge an outsider in his neighborhood. It implies “This is our turf…you don’t belong here…you may die for being here.”

The same questions are repeated with more anger and volume. This only reinforces the false perceptions. What happens next? Perhaps Trayvon learned it is best not to show fear in this situation. In Hispanic Miami-Dade County it can take Machismo and respect to survive. He can’t back down. On the other hand, perhaps he tried to run away again. Zimmerman may have then tried to hold him until the police arrived. Perhaps Zimmerman hit or pushed Martin first. We do not know how the fight started, but there is little doubt as to what happened next: Trayvon, in self defense and in fear of his life, put up a much more valiant fight than what Zimmerman ever would have expected.

Zimmerman told police while they fought he screamed for help and nobody came. A voice can be heard crying for help on the 911 calls. Scientific analysis should eventually prove if the voice is Zimmerman’s or Martin’s. However it would not be surprising if it turns out to be Zimmerman who was the one crying for help. He was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head. He would not have expected “this kid” to fight for his life when he confronted him. After all he was much bigger. This was just a kid he thought he could intimidate, but he soon found himself overpowered and getting the tar beat out of him. He pulls his gun and shoots Martin.

Zimmerman may be found innocent because of Florida’s “Stand your Ground” self-defense laws. This may be the legality, but morally it was wrong for Zimmerman not to explain that he was the Neighborhood Watch Captain when Martin asked why he was being followed. George Zimmerman was the adult and should be held accountable for his actions.

Like it or not, the unspoken “elephant in the room” is the fact that Zimmerman is Hispanic, and Trayvon Martin was growing up in an area of Latin gang activity. Zimmerman may have profiled Martin as a black kid “up to no good”. But Martin may have thought Zimmerman fit the profile of a gang member. This could have contributed to his final minutes being spent in fear and in a fight for his life.

It would seem cruel to the victim to think that racial stereotyping could also have influenced Trayvon’s actions that night, but if we are to ever fully understand this tragedy, this side must eventually be investigated, no matter how uncomfortable it may be.

It seems that Martin may have been justified in attacking Zimmerman under the "Stand Your Ground" law. He was being chased without provocation by a much larger man, unknown to him, wearing no official identification. The law says:

"A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force."

Martin used force

the force was used against another person (Zimmerman)

Martin's attempt at retreating by foot had been foiled so force was his only recourse

if a woman found herself being suddenly chased by a large male unknown to her and wearing no uniform she would likely expect force would be "imminently" used against her (rape) -- if a high school student found himself being suddenly chased by a large male unknown to him through a crime-ridden neighborhood he might likewise expect force would "imminently" be used against him (beatdown)

That said, I empathize with the police and DA as it seems there's not enough evidence to convict anyone one way or the other. But, there's no way Zimmerman should be carrying a firearm is he is prone to start running after people on the basis of "gut feelings" rather than observed crimes. He's a hothead who is looking for the opportunity to be an action hero. It would be best if the DA could get him to cop a plea to assault or something so he had a felony record and they could prohibit him from carrying.

Yeah, it seems Zimmerman handled it wrong. He definitely should have told him that he was a Watchman and just trying to keep the neighborhood safe, and that he was questioning him because he didn't live there and there was a rash of crime recently. I am guessing that some words were exchanged when supposedly Trayvin first approached the car and had his hand in his waistline pretending to prepare to draw a gun. Probably why the line of questioning according the the girlfriend was off to a bad start.

I don't blame him I did that a few times in my younger years and it got me out of getting jumped everytime.

According to what you posted though, he actually started chasing Martin. If someone I didn't know started chasing me and backed me into a corner and I could punch him, I probably would. And the fact he was a neighborhood watch volunteer really doesn't mean anything. A neighborhood watch volunteer doesn't have any more authority than a food bank volunteer. You have no legal obligation to stop if a neighborhood watch/food bank volunteer tells you to stop.

According to this guy, Manslaughter in Florida can be committed one of three ways, including:

Committing an act that was neither excusable, nor justified that resulted in the death of another person.

I don't think it would be excusable or justified if I just started chasing people on the street (obviously this would be different if I saw the person I were chasing just commit a crime). If one of the chases I'd initiated set in motion a sequence of events that ended in the death of another person, is this manslaughter? I don't know.

[codeblue1018]

Aradhus, where are you getting your bad information from? Lol. Zimmerman was indeed brought in for questioning and was later released. Do you think for one minute that If the police discovered anything to refute Zimmermans account that he wouldn't have been arrested? WTF!!! Do you actually believe that the police just took his word on the scene that it was self defense? It is now clear that you have no clue what you are talking about.

those were the initial reports from the local media. Apologies for not being a hipster like yourself and keeping up to date with all the relevant stories of ni.. black people being murdered in self defense.

Get up to date then prior to making absurd claims. Since the beginning you've made comments that A: simply aren't true and B: are ludicrous. Feel free to take a peak at some of those gems. I understand you don't agree with what and how Zimmerman conducted himself and neither do I. Thing is, as of now, the only crime he committed was being an idiot.

[BigBallinStalin]

I want to agree with saxitoxin's and BVP's reasonable questions and observations here, but I can't seem to leave my "UR A RACIST" position.

[patches70]

The non-Americans immediately dismiss any argument of self defense because Europeans don't look at self defense the same as we do in the US. It's pointless to even bother trying to explain.

No individual has the right to defend themselves, that's the job of the authorities don't ya know.

I suppose if any of them had someone break their nose and are slamming the back of their head into the ground then I suppose they'd just have to lay there and bleed until the coppers arrive.

You're retarded, and racist, congrats, asshole.

LOL, eloquent as ever. I'm not sure, but can you explain exactly what is racist about what you quoted of me there?
Of course, the only thing you can do is call people names. I understand certain legal concepts might be hard for you to understand being as your country has her laws and my country has different laws. Being as you don't have to live by our laws I can see how you might not be very well informed about them.

but there's such a thing as "excessive use of self-defense" in our legislation

Pay attention to the bolded part. That's the catch.

You do comprehend that the US is a different country than your own with different laws?

In most States, to claim self defense you must do a couple of things first. First off, you are supposed to attempt to avoid the altercation. Upon failing that, you must attempt to retreat. Upon failing that you can use self defense (it's a little bit different if you are in your own home though).

Florida, however, has by law eliminated the duty to retreat requirement in using self defense. If a person is somewhere they are legally allowed to be (in their home, in the store, on the street) then they don't have to retreat.

Now, this next bit is very important. See if you can follow. There are laws about the use of excessive force in self defense. Here's the catch. If a person claims self defense and the prosecution wishes to claim that excessive force was used, then the prosecution must prove there was an absence of self defense in the first place. If the prosecutor is unable to do so, the judge will instruct the jury to to deliver a verdict of "not guilty". You get it?

I'm waiting to hear the convoluted explanations why Zimmerman's life was in such danger that he simply had to kill an unarmed kid to protect his own life

I don't need to. That's the job of Zimmerman's lawyer, not mine. I wasn't there so I can't know. Just like you weren't there so you can't know either. Since you don't understand the laws of the US (and Florida) and probably the entire process, you've jumped straight to conclusions.
I, however, don't like to jump to conclusions if I can help it.

If you understood the laws then you'd better understand why the police didn't charge Zimmerman and turned the case over to the state attorney office.

Now, by understanding the laws you'll quickly realize that Zimmerman won't be charged with 1st degree murder, or 2nd degree murder. In Florida they don't separate manslaughter and murder, the best they could do is get him on 3rd degree murder.

To get him on 3rd degree murder, and they could well be able to, the prosecution will have to show that Zimmerman should have known beforehand that he was getting himself into a situation with a likely outcome that someone was going to get seriously injured or killed.


For 3rd degree murder in Florida, the max sentence is 15 years. To get 15 years for that charge Zimmerman would have had to of been standing in the street just blasting away with utter disregard for hitting someone. Most likely if he is charged and convicted on 3rd degree murder he'll get a (EDIT: Apparently he'd get at least 9+ years) and some probation time (up to 15 years of probation).

Then, of course, the Feds are trying to see if there is any evidence of a hate crime and if they find that evidence then we've got a whole new ball game. Thus far what's been reported doesn't seem likely that Zimmerman targeted the kid just because he was of a different race. You of course won't buy that, but in court there will have to be something that actually points to that circumstance besides the fact that one was black and the other Hispanic (or white Hispanic or whatever you want to call the shooter).

Like Saxi said, it's a messed up case for the prosecution. If it had turned out the other way, with Zimmerman dead, Martin could have used the self defense route himself and been very likely justified. Zimmerman (IMO) should have announced he was just the neighborhood watch right from the get go and that might be enough for the prosecution to pursue 3rd degree murder charges on him. Not 1st (life with no parole or execution) or 2nd (25 to life) degree murder mind you. But 3rd degree which is the equivalent of manslaughter or negligent homicide in other states. It certainly could have been handled differently and it's the job of the courts to figure it all out and not the job of mobs.

[Aradhus]

Aradhus, where are you getting your bad information from? Lol. Zimmerman was indeed brought in for questioning and was later released. Do you think for one minute that If the police discovered anything to refute Zimmermans account that he wouldn't have been arrested? WTF!!! Do you actually believe that the police just took his word on the scene that it was self defense? It is now clear that you have no clue what you are talking about.

those were the initial reports from the local media. Apologies for not being a hipster like yourself and keeping up to date with all the relevant stories of ni.. black people being murdered in self defense.

Get up to date then prior to making absurd claims. Since the beginning you've made comments that A: simply aren't true and B: are ludicrous. Feel free to take a peak at some of those gems. I understand you don't agree with what and how Zimmerman conducted himself and neither do I. Thing is, as of now, the only crime he committed was being an idiot.

If being an idiot is a crime, I assume you have broadband access in your cell?

[saxitoxin]

Members of the Neighborhood Watch in Bluff Park, Alabama:



Zimmerman looks really silly on multiple accounts.

First, he was a guy in his 20s who was the driving force in a volunteer group that's - stereotypically - staffed by stay-at-home moms, retired couples and pregnant women on home rest, whose training consists of an one-hour video followed by cookies and juice from the Ladies Garden Club. The idea of the group in the picture above having a gun-toting, paunchy, 20-something guy who goes on "patrol" and runs chasing after people on the street dropped into their world is pretty hilarious.

Second, despite fashioning himself as an action-hero in training (he'd been "aspiring" to be a police officer, which I assume means he kept applying and getting rejected), he got beat to within an inch of his life by a high school student 100 pounds lighter than him.

I'm inclined to agree with codeblue that Zimmerman's only crime was being an idiot, and in that sense I don't feel very bad about the public humiliation and shaming he's suffering since that'll be the only punishment he receives for setting in motion a series of events that led to someone getting killed.

[codeblue1018]

Aradhus, where are you getting your bad information from? Lol. Zimmerman was indeed brought in for questioning and was later released. Do you think for one minute that If the police discovered anything to refute Zimmermans account that he wouldn't have been arrested? WTF!!! Do you actually believe that the police just took his word on the scene that it was self defense? It is now clear that you have no clue what you are talking about.

those were the initial reports from the local media. Apologies for not being a hipster like yourself and keeping up to date with all the relevant stories of ni.. black people being murdered in self defense.

Get up to date then prior to making absurd claims. Since the beginning you've made comments that A: simply aren't true and B: are ludicrous. Feel free to take a peak at some of those gems. I understand you don't agree with what and how Zimmerman conducted himself and neither do I. Thing is, as of now, the only crime he committed was being an idiot.

If being an idiot is a crime, I assume you have broadband access in your cell?

Clever, clever response. Expected nothing more from a small child. You've embarssed yourself enough mate. Keep it up; your inane comments surely depict your intelligence. Be gone little fella; this topic is for persons with some pubes.

[natty dread]

Aradhus, where are you getting your bad information from? Lol. Zimmerman was indeed brought in for questioning and was later released. Do you think for one minute that If the police discovered anything to refute Zimmermans account that he wouldn't have been arrested? WTF!!! Do you actually believe that the police just took his word on the scene that it was self defense? It is now clear that you have no clue what you are talking about.

those were the initial reports from the local media. Apologies for not being a hipster like yourself and keeping up to date with all the relevant stories of ni.. black people being murdered in self defense.

Get up to date then prior to making absurd claims. Since the beginning you've made comments that A: simply aren't true and B: are ludicrous. Feel free to take a peak at some of those gems. I understand you don't agree with what and how Zimmerman conducted himself and neither do I. Thing is, as of now, the only crime he committed was being an idiot.

If being an idiot is a crime, I assume you have broadband access in your cell?

Clever, clever response. Expected nothing more from a small child. You've embarssed yourself enough mate. Keep it up; your inane comments surely depict your intelligence. Be gone little fella; this topic is for persons with some pubes.

Haha, you just got owned so hard.

[Baron Von PWN]

derp

[Baron Von PWN]

I want to agree with saxitoxin's and BVP's reasonable questions and observations here, but I can't seem to leave my "UR A RACIST" position.

It's obviously the most important and pertinent course of discussion.

Why should we be concerned with contradictory statements between a witness and the guy who shot someone, or how Martin would know Zimmerman had a gun. Clearly the most important thing to be doing here is calling each other retarded, racist, and ignorant. Either that or lecturing foreigners on US legal custom/culture.

[BigBallinStalin]

natty dread, given the responses by saxitoxin and BVP, what exactly is your stance on this issue?

[thegreekdog]

Arad - There were over 11,000 gun-related homicides in the United States in 2009. How many of them made national news? How many of them did the president comment on?

Paranoid my ass...

Yeah? And your point is? Obama is in communication with the media and he told them to amp up this situation so he could step in like the benevolent hero he is! Give me a break. Some black kid gets shot and initial rumours(from local media) are that the police assigned to the case aren't investigating it properly. That the killer hasn't even been fucking charged. That's the sort of situation where a riot can break out.
I mean wtf is your point? Obama should never comment on any event ever, because his presence in that event is entirely self motivated?

He can comment on whatever the f*ck he wants. That's not my point. My point is that some large percentage of the reason why he's commenting is for political gain. That's what the f*ck I'm talking about. You really think he's sitting there saying, "Well, I'd better say something before a riot breaks out" and do you really think what he said would calm a fucking riot? The goddamn Black Panthers put a bounty on Zimmerman's fucking head! After the president spoke!

Also... fuckity f*ck f*ck f*ck.

[thegreekdog]

I want to agree with saxitoxin's and BVP's reasonable questions and observations here, but I can't seem to leave my "UR A RACIST" position.

It's obviously the most important and pertinent course of discussion.

Why should we be concerned with contradictory statements between a witness and the guy who shot someone, or how Martin would know Zimmerman had a gun. Clearly the most important thing to be doing here is calling each other retarded, racist, and ignorant. Either that or lecturing foreigners on US legal custom/culture.

Hi, you must be new to the CC forums.

[AAFitz]

Arad - There were over 11,000 gun-related homicides in the United States in 2009. How many of them made national news? How many of them did the president comment on?

Paranoid my ass...

Yeah? And your point is? Obama is in communication with the media and he told them to amp up this situation so he could step in like the benevolent hero he is! Give me a break. Some black kid gets shot and initial rumours(from local media) are that the police assigned to the case aren't investigating it properly. That the killer hasn't even been fucking charged. That's the sort of situation where a riot can break out.
I mean wtf is your point? Obama should never comment on any event ever, because his presence in that event is entirely self motivated?

He hasn't been charged because the investigation has thus far determined that he was acting in self-defense. You don't just go around charging people without actual evidence that a law was violated.

wtf are you talking about? dead body, man with gun. If the dead body was white and the man with the gun was black, I'm sure the situation would be exactly the same. Still no charge, weighing up the evidence.

Hypotheticals don't matter in a case of life or death. What matters are facts. And thus far, the facts seem to be pointing to self-defense, which means the person cannot be charged for the death.

Theres nothing hypothetical about the guy chasing down a perfectly innocent kid while armed and then later shooting him. Thats not self defense. Its assault with a deadly weapon, and then manslaughter.

[AAFitz]

Arad - There were over 11,000 gun-related homicides in the United States in 2009. How many of them made national news? How many of them did the president comment on?

Paranoid my ass...

Yeah? And your point is? Obama is in communication with the media and he told them to amp up this situation so he could step in like the benevolent hero he is! Give me a break. Some black kid gets shot and initial rumours(from local media) are that the police assigned to the case aren't investigating it properly. That the killer hasn't even been fucking charged. That's the sort of situation where a riot can break out.
I mean wtf is your point? Obama should never comment on any event ever, because his presence in that event is entirely self motivated?

He can comment on whatever the f*ck he wants. That's not my point. My point is that some large percentage of the reason why he's commenting is for political gain. That's what the f*ck I'm talking about. You really think he's sitting there saying, "Well, I'd better say something before a riot breaks out" and do you really think what he said would calm a fucking riot? The goddamn Black Panthers put a bounty on Zimmerman's fucking head! After the president spoke!

Also... fuckity f*ck f*ck f*ck.

People would have been just as critical if he didnt say anything, so he might as speak up anyways.

[thegreekdog]

Arad - There were over 11,000 gun-related homicides in the United States in 2009. How many of them made national news? How many of them did the president comment on?

Paranoid my ass...

Yeah? And your point is? Obama is in communication with the media and he told them to amp up this situation so he could step in like the benevolent hero he is! Give me a break. Some black kid gets shot and initial rumours(from local media) are that the police assigned to the case aren't investigating it properly. That the killer hasn't even been fucking charged. That's the sort of situation where a riot can break out.
I mean wtf is your point? Obama should never comment on any event ever, because his presence in that event is entirely self motivated?

He can comment on whatever the f*ck he wants. That's not my point. My point is that some large percentage of the reason why he's commenting is for political gain. That's what the f*ck I'm talking about. You really think he's sitting there saying, "Well, I'd better say something before a riot breaks out" and do you really think what he said would calm a fucking riot? The goddamn Black Panthers put a bounty on Zimmerman's fucking head! After the president spoke!

Also... fuckity f*ck f*ck f*ck.

People would have been just as critical if he didnt say anything, so he might as speak up anyways.

I don't think people would have been as critical, especially once all the facts came out. And, as I indicated previously, it's not like the president comments on everything that happens whether he's criticized or not. That is really why I'm cynical about this (or paranoid, whatever). He didn't have to comment. He didn't have to comment when he did, without knowing all the facts (he had a similar gaffe with the Harvard professor thing, which he actually did a good job of defusing). And, unfortunately for him, if the facts come out in a way that's unfavorable, he looks like a jerk (or whatever).

[bedub1]

The non-Americans immediately dismiss any argument of self defense because Europeans don't look at self defense the same as we do in the US. It's pointless to even bother trying to explain.

No individual has the right to defend themselves, that's the job of the authorities don't ya know.

I suppose if any of them had someone break their nose and are slamming the back of their head into the ground then I suppose they'd just have to lay there and bleed until the coppers arrive.

You're retarded, and racist, congrats, asshole.

No, he is hilariously funny and makes a good point.

Maybe both belligerents thought they were fighting for their lives.

I couldn't agree more.

There's no such thing as "self defense" against an unarmed person when you're the one who has a gun. There's no justification whatsoever for killing someone because you think he looks "suspicious".

"unarmed" != has no arms, thus incapable of inflicting serious injury or death

Exactly. People keep throwing around "unarmed" like the kid had no arms, no legs, and was stuck in a wheelchair.

[HapSmo19]

There's no such thing as "self defense" against an unarmed person when you're the one who has a gun. There's no justification whatsoever for killing someone because you think he looks "suspicious".

"unarmed" != has no arms, thus incapable of inflicting serious injury or death

Exactly. People keep throwing around "unarmed" like the kid had no arms, no legs, and was stuck in a wheelchair.

And it seems like there was something about broken nose and a head bouncing off the pavement between the looking suspicious part and the BANG!

[keiths31]

I saw Anderson Cooper last night and they played the 911 call with the possible racial slur. I listened to it over and over. Those who say he used the word "coons" have a case. Those that say he used the word "goons" have a case. It sounds like either or. And that will help neither side in this matter.

[saxitoxin]

I saw Anderson Cooper last night and they played the 911 call with the possible racial slur. I listened to it over and over. Those who say he used the word "coons" have a case. Those that say he used the word "goons" have a case. It sounds like either or. And that will help neither side in this matter.

That's a good point. Whether he said goons or coons is fairly irrelevant. Being racist isn't a crime. The two fringes that have dominated this conversation (Aradhus and natty on one hand and VO and NS on the other) have so inflated this sideshow that the main question is lost: if a strange man who was larger than you, started chasing you for no reason that's apparent to you, and had not stated his intent, would you feel under "imminent threat of bodily injury?" If yes, then Martin was justified in attacking Zimmerman. Then, does a person who has brought an attack upon himself through provocation, have the right to ward off the attack he caused? I also think the answer is yes.

I don't think Zimmerman should be charged with a crime but he should be sued for wrongful death.

"In order to sue for wrongful death, it must be proven that the acts or omissions of the defendant were the proximate cause of the decedent's injuries and death. This means that the defendant's wrongful conduct must have created a natural, direct series of events that led to the injury."

[bedub1]

the main question is lost: if a strange man who was larger than you, started chasing you for no reason that's apparent to you, and had not stated his intent, would you feel under "imminent threat of bodily injury?" If yes, then Martin was justified in attacking Zimmerman. Then, does a person who has brought an attack upon himself through provocation, have the right to ward off the attack he caused? I also think the answer is yes.

I must play the devils advocate:
The main question is lost: if a strange man, acting suspiciously, started running away for no reason that's apparent to you, and had not stated his purpose for being on private property, circled back around and attacked you, would you feel under "imminent threat of bodily injury?" If yes, then Zimmerman was justified in defending against his attacker Martin.

Remember, Zimmerman has been patrolling the neighborhood for years. He has already successfully defend his neighbors against imported criminals and thieves, capturing at least one thief.

When a rash of burglaries and other crimes broke out in and around a gated community in Sanford, Fla., residents wanted some form of protection. Someone raised the possibility of a neighborhood watch group. But only one resident seems to have come forward for the duties: George Zimmerman.

...he had called 911 to report suspicious activity in the neighborhood nearly 50 times in the last year

He once caught a thief and an arrest was made," Cynthia Wibker, secretary of the homeowners association, told the Herald. "He helped solve a lot of crimes."

Zimmerman knows he isn't the police, and calls them about once a week it looks like. When he found a suspicious person, the first thing he did is call 911.

[BigBallinStalin]

Can Zimmerman be questioned by the FBI, or anyone highly skilled in interrogation?

If the Saxi Scenario is a good possibility, then isn't Zimmerman a suspect? I think the local police called it quits early on because it was a very difficult scenario for them to approach.

[thegreekdog]

Can Zimmerman be questioned by the FBI, or anyone highly skilled in interrogation?

If the Saxi Scenario is a good possibility, then isn't Zimmerman a suspect? I think the local police called it quits early on because it was a very difficult scenario for them to approach.

I thought the FBI could only be involved in crimes that crossed state lines (he writes, while understanding that knowledge comes from fictional television shows).

[saxitoxin]

the main question is lost: if a strange man who was larger than you, started chasing you for no reason that's apparent to you, and had not stated his intent, would you feel under "imminent threat of bodily injury?" If yes, then Martin was justified in attacking Zimmerman. Then, does a person who has brought an attack upon himself through provocation, have the right to ward off the attack he caused? I also think the answer is yes.

I must play the devils advocate:
The main question is lost: if a strange man, acting suspiciously, started running away for no reason that's apparent to you, and had not stated his purpose for being on private property, circled back around and attacked you, would you feel under "imminent threat of bodily injury?" If yes, then Zimmerman was justified in defending against his attacker Martin.

1. Martin was on his own private property (as the child of an HOA member)

2. A reasonable person would assume that the reason the strange man was running away from you was because you were running after him. In the absence of an actual crime having been committed, Zimmerman has no legal authority to randomly chase people on the street anymore than I can walk out my front door and start running after the first person I see. There's probably nothing that prevents Zimmerman from doing that, but a rational person will realize that will be construed as an aggressive action by the person he's pursuing.

In the U.S., no one has a legal obligation to identify themselves to anyone except a police officer acting with reasonable suspicion (see: Hiibel vs. Sixth Judicial District of Nevada). You have no obligation to speak to another person if you don't want to; if Zimmerman asked Martin for his identification, Martin was fully within his rights to simply ignore him.

[Phatscotty]

I still don't get why night strike & co. are so adamant that the shooter has to be innocent... Why are you so sure it was "self-defense"?

Is it just because the victim was a black kid in a rich neighbourhood, so he simply had to be "up to no good"?

It's looking more and more everyday like it was self defense. That does not mean that will be the verdict, and I will bet the Martin family will have a civil case against Zimmerman. I know they are already suing the gated community.

And it turns out more and more everyday, that Trayvon actually was up to no good, on a regular basis. I know it seems like people are talking crap about Trayvon in his death, and it's crystal clear just how much crap people are talking about Zimmerman who it seems may have almost been killed himself, but this is the media's fault, and it could not have happened without the consent of a lot of media pawns to give the incorrect, race fueled version of the story legs.