INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[ZaBeast]

I need to read back on stuff before I decide who to trust between rage, blacky and chap so I guess now would be a good time for the mass claim. Would give me the time to catch up hopefully. Would also give SK time to catch up but maybe it's better to let him post before we go that path.

[Sirius Kase]

I don't get why blacky isn't voting for chap, though...

I cant work out this game or how to play it!

Had I voted Chap after your initial claim, I would have been accused of being scum for voting too quickly.
So I decided to wait and see how others may view this.

Also, by me agreeing to your claim it means that should Chap flip town then i am an automatic lynch next day. But you could be scum and playing us to get two townies lynched... so IDK

Come on, can't you see it? Ragian is using you to deflect attention away from something! You are inconsistent because you are playing reactively to people who are manipulating you. Different people, who may not have the same goal. They might not think you are scum or maybe they do, but you are someone who allows himself to be controlled. About Chap, think for yourself. Dismiss any trash talk that you don't understand. It's not all meant in good faith.

Okay, anyone who is paying attention can see I'm getting closer to being caught up.

[Sirius Kase]

Okay, caught up, but still must think. Rage, Blacky, Chap controversy is front and center. Someone is scum. Blacky is allowing himself to be pushed around. That doesn't mean he can't be scum. In fact, it might be the reason he is playing reactively. But, those pushing him around, I need to establish whether they have valid basis for their behavior.

I'm not able to make a decision yet. Other people participated in the discussion, so much to sort out.

Thanks for waiting, had an unusually difficult Easter, was supposed to be a day, turned out to be a week. Then I was behind on everything.

[Sirius Kase]

From the Mafiscum wiki:

The advantage to massclaiming is that it forces players to drop all pretenses and place final claims down. This reveals the Town's power roles and all helpful results they may have while forcing the scum to stick to a claim they may regret. The disadvantage to massclaiming is that it reveals to the scum exactly who the power roles are.

Massclaim is frequently employed as a last resort for Towns in LyLo, as the resulting danger to the power roles at Night is acceptable given that the Town may lose at the end of the Day.

Are we at LyLo? Isn't that when half of the remaining players are thought to be scum? Ten of us, so that would mean 5 scum. That's a lot for a game that started with only 16 players. But, not enough to form 2 independent mafias.

If we aren't at lylo, then we would be providing much useful information to everyone, including scum. The assumption is that town would be honest and tell all and that scum would lie, therefore revealing nothing. Considering the "interwebbing" nature of so many roles, there is much room for creativity on the part of scum. So, if we do a mass claim, it's like a "Hail Mary" in football. Either you win right away or you sacrifice all hope of winning ever. So, it's a last ditch effort. Are we there yet?

[Sirius Kase]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Massclaim

I didn't quote the whole article. It gives another reason for doing a massclaim, that would be, breaking a bad setup.

Also, 4 ways of doing a mass claim. Before agreeing to a methodology, I suggest getting familiar with these four.

I don't think we should do a mass claim until we are at lylo. Surely by now, we know enough to figure out who is most likely to be scum. I would suggest we pressure or lynch the people who are pressuring others. If anyone should be asked to claim first, it's the ones who are forcing other people to be defensive by staying on the offensive themselves. I firmly believe we have been letting scum control the conversation resulting in deaths of townspeople. We need to focus on the right people.

[Sirius Kase]

Of all the listed methods, the one that makes the most sense is to have a player who is confirmed town choose the person to claim first. This makes it impossible for scum to manipulate the process. If we go with a consensus of who seems scummiest, the less experienced at rhetoric will tend to go along with whoever is most persuasive which doesn't correlate with scumminess or lack of scumminess. Ie, skill at rhetoric is not an indication that the person is correct or honest. So, do we have someone who is proven to be town?

[ZaBeast]

I don't think we should do a mass claim until we are at lylo. Surely by now, we know enough to figure out who is most likely to be scum. I would suggest we pressure or lynch the people who are pressuring others. If anyone should be asked to claim first, it's the ones who are forcing other people to be defensive by staying on the offensive themselves. I firmly believe we have been letting scum control the conversation resulting in deaths of townspeople. We need to focus on the right people.

Well then, who do you think is scum if you think town knows enough to figure out who's scum. And why are you so sure scum were pushing for the lynch and not misguided townies?
Btw if we lynch someone and someone else gets NKed we're down 2 people. We're either at lylo or pretty close (given the claims we've seen I don't think there would be 4 scum+1 traitor). Lylo means if we mislynch we lose, it's not the same as being endgamed (if there were 5 scum the game would be done already)

Okay, caught up, but still must think. Rage, Blacky, Chap controversy is front and center. Someone is scum. Blacky is allowing himself to be pushed around. That doesn't mean he can't be scum. In fact, it might be the reason he is playing reactively. But, those pushing him around, I need to establish whether they have valid basis for their behavior.
I'm not able to make a decision yet. Other people participated in the discussion, so much to sort out.

Doesn't that contradict your first point? Blacky might be scum because he's allowing people to push him around while scum are the ones you think were pushing people around. Also why isn't Ragian the one you read as scum when you said the quote below just the post before?

Come on, can't you see it? Ragian is using you to deflect attention away from something! You are inconsistent because you are playing reactively to people who are manipulating you. Different people, who may not have the same goal. They might not think you are scum or maybe they do, but you are someone who allows himself to be controlled. About Chap, think for yourself. Dismiss any trash talk that you don't understand. It's not all meant in good faith.

Of all the listed methods, the one that makes the most sense is to have a player who is confirmed town choose the person to claim first. This makes it impossible for scum to manipulate the process. If we go with a consensus of who seems scummiest, the less experienced at rhetoric will tend to go along with whoever is most persuasive which doesn't correlate with scumminess or lack of scumminess. Ie, skill at rhetoric is not an indication that the person is correct or honest. So, do we have someone who is proven to be town?

The closest to it would be BuJ. Do you think he is, and why?

Also you haven't explained why you thought claiming enabler was a good idea.

[Pikanchion]

If we aren't at lylo, then we would be providing much useful information to everyone, including scum. The assumption is that town would be honest and tell all and that scum would lie, therefore revealing nothing. Considering the "interwebbing" nature of so many roles, there is much room for creativity on the part of scum. So, if we do a mass claim, it's like a "Hail Mary" in football. Either you win right away or you sacrifice all hope of winning ever. So, it's a last ditch effort. Are we there yet?

Unless you are certain that myself, yourself, Skoffin, and BuJaber are all Town and are all relatively powerful or that at least two are Town roles so powerful we can't risk ever losing them, I don't see how a mass claim can be considered as dangerous as it would be in the type of game that page assumes. All but the four players mentioned have claimed enough that everybody should know basically what their normal night action is, and of those four there are various clues or outright statements that hint to what each may be.

Further, the group of four can actually be reduced; for instance if I am Scum then Scum would already know BuJaber's role, and if BuJaber is Scum then I'm probably Scum also, so in either case the Town group at risk from claiming is now only two (the two who have actually claimed the most concretely about their standard actions). Add to this that myself and BuJaber are both for the mass claim and you can show that neither of us—if we are Town—believe our roles to fulfill the criteria of being too important to ever risk losing them given what we know about the rest of the game.

Town doesn't have all that much left to hide in terms of role claims, but a lot that is obscured by undeclared actions. Keeping quiet now just keeps us confused for the sake of unicorn role we have to protect.

[Skoffin]

I'ma unicorn

[dakky21]

I'ma unicorn

Sorry (I'm dead) but this is special occasion, If you are unicorn, wanna marry me?

[Sirius Kase]

@ZaBeast, I'm still not sure that claiming enabler when I did was optimal. But, I had to claim Town Enabler because that's what I am. When I read the Role PM, it was like WTF??? I'm still not sure if there is anything else I could be doing to be more effective. That's my project for N5. But, I had set a deadline, to get out as much as I knew before N4/Easter. My parents are 85 so Easter turned into other than a social/religious occasion. It was very involved for about a week and when I was able to sneak away, I was too burned out to think about this game.

[Sirius Kase]

@Pika my impression is that a mass claim would cause the game to end sooner either by identifying scum so we can lynch better, or by providing scum with information to enable them to do what they do more effectively. I'm not sure which would benefit most from mass claim. But, if it's down to four, and one of the four is me, that simplifies the math. I have difficulty gauging my own importance, so that's why I claimed as much as I understood. I found info, but I'll have to formulate a question or two for the moderator tonight. Possibly my role isn't as passive as it appears.

[TX AG 90]

I'ma unicorn

Sorry (I'm dead) but this is special occasion, If you are unicorn, wanna marry me?

You have to be a Virgin.

[BuJaber]

I have reason to believe Ragian because I think TX healed me. I was told that he swam by me during the chaos of the night and then I was told I was healed.

It is an assumption of course especially since strike can't know if he healed me or not.

Add tp that the fact that both chap and blacky were and continue to be scummy to me.

I think the massclaim will help because we are near the end without a lot of info already revealed enough for any half-decent scum team to use, so town need to just fill the gap. Also because the setup is not normal.

That said even if the majority insist on no massclaim we still need to lynch either chap or blacky.

But yeah massclaim then lynch one of them.

[BuJaber]

Strike you are quite certain you healed blacky's poisoning night 2 right?

[TX AG 90]

I have reason to believe Ragian because I think TX healed me. I was told that he swam by me during the chaos of the night and then I was told I was healed.

It is an assumption of course especially since strike can't know if he healed me or not.

Add tp that the fact that both chap and blacky were and continue to be scummy to me.

I think the massclaim will help because we are near the end without a lot of info already revealed enough for any half-decent scum team to use, so town need to just fill the gap. Also because the setup is not normal.

That said even if the majority insist on no massclaim we still need to lynch either chap or blacky.

But yeah massclaim then lynch one of them.

You were told I swam by you? I am Nemo's dad Marlin and am afraid to leave my anemone. I turtled up last night.

[Ragian]

Even if you did cradle up, TX, I was able to investigate you, so things changed.

[BuJaber]

As confusion takes hold, all head for cover, with no time for directed night actions.

The reef dwellers realize that their greatest fear has arrived... [/color][/b] A FEEDING FRENZY

Is this a coordinated attack?
Have town have been sold out, and set up?

No targeting
And later skoffin said it was her action that did this.

We don't have to believe skoffin but we have to believe the mod.

[Skoffin]

My action did randomise everyone but I'm not sure how that would work on self-targeting. Would that mean someone else was forced to cradle up instead if tx is truthful? lool

[BuJaber]

Depends how his night action is worded.

If he has a choice of which action to use and then he choses the target then yes it would mean someone else cradled up and strike was the one who healed me.

If he only has a choice of target but the action itself affects him differently than it affects other people then he just healed whoever he ended up visiting, most likely me.

Anywya sirius is caught up now, yes?

So Do we need a headcount of who is supportive of mass claim or should blacky just full claim everything now?

[TX AG 90]

Depends how his night action is worded.

If he has a choice of which action to use and then he choses the target then yes it would mean someone else cradled up and strike was the one who healed me.

If he only has a choice of target but the action itself affects him differently than it affects other people then he just healed whoever he ended up visiting, most likely me.

Anywya sirius is caught up now, yes?

So Do we need a headcount of who is supportive of mass claim or should blacky just full claim everything now?

My night action results from Mod were that I ran for cover and hid

[BuJaber]

Depends how his night action is worded.

If he has a choice of which action to use and then he choses the target then yes it would mean someone else cradled up and strike was the one who healed me.

If he only has a choice of target but the action itself affects him differently than it affects other people then he just healed whoever he ended up visiting, most likely me.

Anywya sirius is caught up now, yes?

So Do we need a headcount of who is supportive of mass claim or should blacky just full claim everything now?

My night action results from Mod were that I ran for cover and hid

Then it was a coincidence my action got redirected to you, not a mutual targeting. The healing must have been done by strike.

There you go another reason why I believe Ragian. What I received about TX matches what TX has claimed about himself.

[BuJaber]

But I didn't target TX, I ended up there because of the mass redirection. This time he was named, unlike in night 2 where I was redirected (by Tobi as the evidence would suggest now), my new target was not named.

[Skoffin]

How come no one has claimed to be a pufferfish?

[TX AG 90]

But I didn't target TX, I ended up there because of the mass redirection. This time he was named, unlike in night 2 where I was redirected (by Tobi as the evidence would suggest now), my new target was not named.

What was your action? Nothing happened to me.