Conquer Club

jay_a2j wrote: May God reveal himself to you all.

That's the whole point ...if he existed he would

Jargo The Axe wrote:Seriously, why? And if your going to vote I just do give a reaso otherwise you basically fall under #1

because of their...

1. hypocrisy
2. abuse of power
3. stupidity

heavycola wrote:

jay_a2j wrote:I lost.

Yup.

"I'm right, your wrong. You'll seeeeeeeee! So DOOM ON YOU!"

I hope the Jesus Freaks are going to be better at this game than they are at debating....

Its not so much being "picked on" as attacked. In the US it seems like as Christianity gets attacked...10 Commandments, "One Nation Under God", "Merry Christmas" and so on.
Other faiths seem to be getting more protection or "rights" if you will. I bet it would be more accepted if a Christian child was told he can't read the Bible in school then if a muslim child was told He could not read his Koran. Society as a whole goes out of there way not to offend muslims while Christianity must adhear to the bannishment of our beliefs from any public forum.
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Jay-
Not true at all.. If you ever went to the cops and said "this person took a shot at me and said damn christian" I bet you those cops would still heavily take it just as serious as a wiccan, jew, hindu or a buddist. It is after all just as much a hate crime as it would be with anyone else.

Before you start to play that pitty me card that I see comming from you though about religion over here......
I heard not long ago about this Wiccan woman who was doing a custody battle against her abusive christian husband.. (she was divorcing him because he put her in the hospital broke her jaw and stuff.) Her mother in law claimed she was a devil worshipper and the judge wouldnt listen to her and instantly gave the 2 kids she had to her abusive husband. So don't start telling me about how you guys have it bad. (When your jaw is broken and the person you love did it to you and your kids are taken from you like that then complain to me..okay?)

As for the reading of relgious things such as the bible, Koran, and so on.. I dont think any of it should be allowed in the classrooms/schools. Not unles the teachers read all the versions of the bibles and korans and everything else..If they'll learn all religions then fine but we cant exactly force our teachers to do that now can we?

Salva-

Christianity is not being attacked in the US by any liberal boogeymen.

Our money still says "In God We Trust."

End of Line.

Christianity is not being attacked in the US by any liberal boogeymen.

Our money still says "In God We Trust."

End of Line.

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VTMarik-
Agreed ..I couldnt put it any better then that!

Salva-

vtmarik wrote:Greed is a sin, yet a lot of Christians (especially the ones on TV) are rich and keep asking for money.

TV Evangelists? I have to say, the majority of them are not Christians at all. They are like any other traveling salesman. Selling false redemption. However, not everyone is this way, so don't take it that way.

vtmarik wrote:Pride is a sin, yet you proudly wear crosses and proudly declare your relationship with God gives you a better destiny.

Pride is wrong in that you're bringing glory to yourself and not to God. I don't think pride is the right word to use...at least in my case. I say more, I'm not ashamed to wear a cross. And I'm ever thankful that I have a better destiny, not prideful.

vtmarik wrote:Wrath is a sin, yet non-believers feel the stingy wrath of God whenever they have the audacity to challenge Him simply because they have doubts.

Ok, first off, not all wrath is a sin. God is wrathful against sin (NOT to be confused with the sinner). And yes, I'm afraid some Christians do throw fire and brimstone in your face if you don't believe. This makes me very sad. The purpose of a Christian is NOT to preach 'burn in hell' messages. All these do is scare people.

And, if you have doubts, this is showing that you're thinking about it. Which, to me, is encouraging.

vtmarik wrote:A skeptic can believe, but the instant a believer says "Wait a minute" they're no longer a believer according to doctrine.

Ok. That is most definitely NOT true. I'm sorry, but it's not. Christianity is not some mindless thing to follow like rats after the pied piper. You can not grow in your faith if you don't have questions. There's been many times where I questioned the faith and God himself, but that's not going to doom me. The questions, when they are answered, are what help you grow and understand more.

vtmarik wrote:Humor is the tool of the marginalized, and a lot of people come from Christian backgrounds so they mock what they are most familiar with. Take time, you'll hear these same people mock every other religion on the planet from time to time.

That is probably true in some cases, yes.

vtmarik wrote:Christianity is the most popularized religion out there, and is such very visible. It's easier to mock currently popular things than it is to mock things that went out of style.

Well, symbols of Christianity are popular, yes. Crosses, angels, and so on. And, many people, if questioned, would call themselves Christians. I don't want to sound pompous, but just going to church on Sunday and saying grace over dinner is not going to get you to heaven. It's the belief that Jesus saved your soul! That he died and took your punishment! It's so much more than just good works...

vtmarik wrote:Oh, and a lot of Christians are just asking for it. ^_^

vtmarik wrote:And you harp on about Christians being persecuted. What about the salem witch trials, the inquisition, events where Christians took it upon themselves to judge, torture, and kill others because they were different. Were these things that you're proud of?

I am most certainly not proud of those things. The Roman Catholic Church did terrible things in the name of God. The priests were all about power over the people. They took pride in being the ones who could read the Bible, and teach it to the poor peasants. They would make up bogus laws, just to get gold for themselves. That was terribly hypocritical.



I hope I've answered some questions, and if you have more, please please please get a hold of me somehow, either in PM or some kind of IM. I'm not a preacher, and I hardly claim to know everything, but I hope I can help some of you if you need answers. Also, if you want to hear a very Bible saturated man explain this, let me know, and I'll try my best to get it to you. John Piper specifically.

I'm still waiting for someone to start defending faith in god logically...

Otherwise this discussion will keep running in circles with scissors.

I didn't know that was the point of the discussion...

salvadevinemasse wrote:I heard not long ago about this Wiccan woman who was doing a custody battle against her abusive christian husband.. (she was divorcing him because he put her in the hospital broke her jaw and stuff.) Her mother in law claimed she was a devil worshipper and the judge wouldnt listen to her and instantly gave the 2 kids she had to her abusive husband. So don't start telling me about how you guys have it bad. (When your jaw is broken and the person you love did it to you and your kids are taken from you like that then complain to me..okay?)

Salva-

Give me a break, you site one example as if THAT proves christianity isn't a persecuted faith in this country!

* How about the child at school who is told to turn her shirt insideout because it says "Jesus saves!"?

* How about the woman being told she can't wear her cross necklace to work (or at least have it showing)?

* How about the person who was told that they can't take a Bible on a plane and had to "leave it behind" (this happened outside the US)?

* How about the freedom for children to gather around the school flagpole to pray?


You seriously live in a land of dilusion if you can't see the persecution of Christians.

jay_a2j wrote:Give me a break, you site one example as if THAT proves christianity isn't a persecuted faith in this country!

* How about the child at school who is told to turn her shirt insideout because it says "Jesus saves!"?

* How about the woman being told she can't wear her cross necklace to work (or at least have it showing)?

* How about the person who was told that they can't take a Bible on a plane and had to "leave it behind" (this happened outside the US)?

* How about the freedom for children to gather around the school flagpole to pray?


You seriously live in a land of dilusion if you can't see the persecution of Christians.

It's lawsuit avoidance, which goes beyond political correctness and is directly connected to the twin deadly sins of sloth and greed. It's seen as the easiest way to avoid offending people, it'll stop when some Christian stops whining and sues for their first amendment rights.

Example: I had a friend in high school that wore a shirt that said "Jesus was a fetus," a well-known anti-abortion slogan. A teacher got all huffy and puffy and took him to the office. He was going to be suspended, but then he turned the tables and, through words only known to him and his parents, managed to convince the school not to go through with it. I believe a call to the ACLU and a lawsuit were suggested.

If Christians stop assuming the role of victim and start standing up for their rights to free speech (wearing shirts, reading bibles, praying privately, etc.) then maybe you won't have anything else to complain about.

Just remember, there's a fine line between protected speech and proselytizing in class.

And though Christians, in your view, are persecuted; non-christians (especially wiccans and other pagans) are persecuted even further. I had pagan friends in High School who were actively harassed because of their religious beliefs. Don't go around claiming that the Christian community is the only persecuted religious community, because they aren't (that's true on multiple levels).

jay_a2j wrote:

salvadevinemasse wrote:I heard not long ago about this Wiccan woman who was doing a custody battle against her abusive christian husband.. (she was divorcing him because he put her in the hospital broke her jaw and stuff.) Her mother in law claimed she was a devil worshipper and the judge wouldnt listen to her and instantly gave the 2 kids she had to her abusive husband. So don't start telling me about how you guys have it bad. (When your jaw is broken and the person you love did it to you and your kids are taken from you like that then complain to me..okay?)

Salva-

Give me a break, you site one example as if THAT proves christianity isn't a persecuted faith in this country!

* How about the child at school who is told to turn her shirt insideout because it says "Jesus saves!"?

* How about the woman being told she can't wear her cross necklace to work (or at least have it showing)?

* How about the person who was told that they can't take a Bible on a plane and had to "leave it behind" (this happened outside the US)?

* How about the freedom for children to gather around the school flagpole to pray?


You seriously live in a land of dilusion if you can't see the persecution of Christians.

Jay-
Your right in 1 thing.. I should have had more examples such as you have obviosly done.

* What about the wiccans who are looked at as devil worshippers due to the way movies make us look?

* What about how a simple star penticle is seen as a sign of the devil when it really is supposed to symbolize "earth, air, fire, water, and spirit"?

*And why is it when people see goths with black make up on they are mostly considered wiccan just because of how they look?

* Following Michelle Malkin’s lead, Rep. Tom Tancredohas called on officials to “reconsider” the crescent design of a memorial for 9/11 victims “because of the crescent’s prominent use as a symbol in Islam.”
(I got that from a website so theres another example of religious
persecution due to ignorance!)

* As VTMarik mentioned earlier the salem witch trials are another prime example!
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Why, if religions are based on peace and understanding, are the majority of wars, based on religion?

Take a look at the vast majority of conflicts in the world. For the most part, they are religiously based. If you look at what is going on in the middle east right now you'll see clearly that this is true.
Heck, look at Northern Ireland, a country with virtually no Blacks or Jews, and the violence there is based on misinterpretations of the SAME bible! Protestants and Catholics are ALL christians!
So why do they say that they promote peace, understanding and forgiveness when the opposite is true?
Personally I cannot imagine belonging to such a hypocritical group.
I'm ever so thankfull that I had the intelligence enough to become an Atheist.

This was an article from: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 746AAseSd3
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http://www.geocities.com/athens/rhodes/ ... dWars.html
CHRISTIANITY
OVERVIEW: A first-rate advertising campaign tied to a third-rate polytheistic cult. This is one of the two dominant "Jealous-God" religions. The three main creatures they worship are "Jehovah" a Zeus-like sky monster, "Jesus" a prophet who is believed to have faked his own suffering and death (an immortal god of course cannot feel fear, suffer pain, or die and really 'sacrifice' anything), and the "holy ghost" which is some demon thingy that takes over human bodies. There is a fourth god "Lucifer/Satan" who is a troublemaker created by Jehovah. The Catholic subdivision also focuses on the Virgin Mary and a bunch of saints. No other religion can get away with so many atrocities with a reputation for being "peaceful"; in fact, there is no religion in which the advertising (all that "love" and "peace" stuff) bears so little resemblance to the actual religion.

STRATEGY: World domination by any means necessary.

STRENGTH: Nearly 2 billion humans (although this figure apparently includes many baptized/registered-at-birth people in Europe who have abandoned Christ, several psuedo-Christian New Religions and cults, plus tens of millions of people in Africa and Latin America who mix Christianity with traditional beliefs). This religion has spread around the world due to conquest and political manipulation. Most current populations, even in Europe, were once forcibly converted, by foreign invaders or local leaders who were sponsored and put in power by Christian nations. Christianity has the most extensive propaganda machine ever created, and employs hundreds of thousands of missionaries with billions of dollars raised in the wealthy, white nations for the continued bribery and brainwashing of pagans and the suppression of heretics.

OUTLOOK: This religion has supreme military, financial and political influence; it also has the will to commit horrible atrocities. Humanist ideals have slowly been seeping into the religion, but not enough to slow the often bigoted and unethical missionary offensive against other faiths.

Currently the fall of Marxism has opened up many countries to intense conversion efforts. China and Mongolia, where Buddhism was destroyed by Marxism, have been targeted so that Buddhism will not recover. Sub-Saharan Africa has been almost completely converted after its conquest by Europe. However, this religion has failed completely in Islamic nations, and may be undermined by apathetic secularism in Europe and, without full-scale persecution, is vulnerable to a resurgence in neo-paganism and New Religions.

One other issue that has arisen is the competition between the various Christian groups, which are cannibalizing each others' membership (Protestants vs. Catholics in South America; both vs. Eastern Orthodox in Russia; and Mormons expanding against all worldwide).
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My point though is this:

religions don’t preach hatred,but some people do. Same with Christianity, Judeism, Hindu’s and any other religion out there you can find. Its the people I fear, not the religion. you see the person who said it earlier was right on one thing we could keep going in circles about this with sisors in our hands trying to argue our point and change minds,but since our minds are all set to our own point of view.. well you get the drift I hope!


Salva-

Hey people.. Post more! I've been waiting here most the day for someone to speak here, and sadly am hanging my head still waiting!

salva-

salvadevinemasse wrote:Heck, look at Northern Ireland, a country with virtually no Blacks or Jews, and the violence there is based on misinterpretations of the SAME bible! Protestants and Catholics are ALL christians!

Not disagreeing with most of what you said, but believe me yer average Northern Irish doesn't give two shits about interpretations of the bible - it's all nationalism...

Stopper wrote:

salvadevinemasse wrote:Heck, look at Northern Ireland, a country with virtually no Blacks or Jews, and the violence there is based on misinterpretations of the SAME bible! Protestants and Catholics are ALL christians!

Not disagreeing with most of what you said, but believe me yer average Northern Irish doesn't give two shits about interpretations of the bible - it's all nationalism...

thank you for posting! At least someone has made a post on this thread other then yours truely today! I think I've been one of the biggest posters today..maybe they come out more at night? Who knows I was really looking forward to Jay's reaction..But I'm happy I got one persons opinion on my post at least!

Salva!

I agree with Stopper there, the Northern Ireland is (and has been for quite some time) an issue of national belonging. Sure, it started out with strong religious elements, but that was in the 17th century or so when everyone was strongly religious anyway.

jay_a2j wrote:

salvadevinemasse wrote:I heard not long ago about this Wiccan woman who was doing a custody battle against her abusive christian husband.. (she was divorcing him because he put her in the hospital broke her jaw and stuff.) Her mother in law claimed she was a devil worshipper and the judge wouldnt listen to her and instantly gave the 2 kids she had to her abusive husband. So don't start telling me about how you guys have it bad. (When your jaw is broken and the person you love did it to you and your kids are taken from you like that then complain to me..okay?)

Salva-

Give me a break, you site one example as if THAT proves christianity isn't a persecuted faith in this country!

* How about the child at school who is told to turn her shirt insideout because it says "Jesus saves!"?

* How about the woman being told she can't wear her cross necklace to work (or at least have it showing)?

* How about the person who was told that they can't take a Bible on a plane and had to "leave it behind" (this happened outside the US)?

* How about the freedom for children to gather around the school flagpole to pray?


You seriously live in a land of dilusion if you can't see the persecution of Christians.

Oh you poor man. No jewellery to be worn by flight attendants? My god, it's the holocaust all over again.


iI fact that is one of the most offensive things you have ever posted, jay. Think about what the jews have been through over the last millenium, or what mainstream muslims are going through all over the world right now, or how the Kurds have been treated, about muslims in northern India being burned out of their homes...
You, on the other hand, live in a free country that is presided over by one of your very own fantasists. So no, jay, christians are not being persecuted in the US. Get over yourself and stop being so ridiculously melodramatic. It's vain, whiney, self-indulgent bullshit and it insults every person who has ever had to actually suffer for their faith.

jay_a2j wrote:* How about the child at school who is told to turn her shirt insideout because it says "Jesus saves!"?

If that PUBLIC school has a NO religious clothing of any denomination policy and that child defies the rules, then Boo Hoo. This is NOT persecution.

jay_a2j wrote:* How about the woman being told she can't wear her cross necklace to work (or at least have it showing)?

If that woman works for an airline with a NO necklace policy (of ANY kind) due to safety reasons, then Boo Hoo. This is NOT persecution.

jay_a2j wrote:* How about the person who was told that they can't take a Bible on a plane and had to "leave it behind" (this happened outside the US)?

Please give us a link to a reputable news source for this story. Otherwise it's just hearsay and paranoid rumor mongering.

jay_a2j wrote:* How about the freedom for children to gather around the school flagpole to pray?

If those children are going to a PUBLIC school funded by PUBLIC dollars, then, Boo Hoo. Take it elsewhere. Those kids can all meet in your front yard to pray for as many hours as they choose, everyday of the week. This is NOT persecution.

jay_a2j wrote:You seriously live in a land of dilusion if you can't see the persecution of Christians.

You have proven over & over again that you are the deluded one jay. Just keep posting.

See jay I'm not the only one in my little "delusion"! There are others backing me up now! YAY! I get to be one of the leaders! hehehe.

Salva-

Is really noone prepared to defend faith in god by use of logic? What's up with you? You've replied to everything else so far? If you're so certain you're right just go ahead and prove it and gain another convert.

MeDeFe wrote:Is really noone prepared to defend faith in god by use of logic? What's up with you? You've replied to everything else so far? If you're so certain you're right just go ahead and prove it and gain another convert.

Logic is the tool of the devil! Us Christians prefer irrational thought patterns and such because that is how god wants us to think! By the way, god told me this when I prayed to him last night.

My South African pal, relocated to Scotland, was reading this topic and he wants to say some something.

'Come to Scotland and see what it's like between Protestants and Catholics and never mind the rest of the religions that are fighting each other in Britain. Where is God now? I've been reborn three times. I wonder.'

stinkycheese wrote:

MeDeFe wrote:Is really noone prepared to defend faith in god by use of logic? What's up with you? You've replied to everything else so far? If you're so certain you're right just go ahead and prove it and gain another convert.

Logic is the tool of the devil! Us Christians prefer irrational thought patterns and such because that is how god wants us to think! By the way, god told me this when I prayed to him last night.

Very convincing. Where do I sign up?

stinkycheese wrote:

MeDeFe wrote:Is really noone prepared to defend faith in god by use of logic? What's up with you? You've replied to everything else so far? If you're so certain you're right just go ahead and prove it and gain another convert.

Logic is the tool of the devil! Us Christians prefer irrational thought patterns and such because that is how god wants us to think! By the way, god told me this when I prayed to him last night.

Awww isnt that cute! God talks to you too? So I'm not the only one he talks to, yay! hehehehe..I was hoping to have someone to talk to about my godly revelations! *smirks* muhahahaha

Salva-