Thailand

[grifftron]

Tiny icons on the big map, looks too small, can't even tell what it is IMO, the army base looks fine but the airport doesn't look like anything. Tert is just too small

[bigimg]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/5021714355_1aec1c7a97_b.jpg[/bigimg]

-griff

[Industrial Helix]

Yeah... those are tiny.

Here's a thought... how about ditching the inset and making the white a region of its own, perhaps starting neutral 2 or 3 with a bonus of 1 and conglomorating some of those pink territories. OR make pink a territory and white a territory and then make it a two territory bonus region.

[grifftron]

Yeah... those are tiny.

Here's a thought... how about ditching the inset and making the white a region of its own, perhaps starting neutral 2 or 3 with a bonus of 1 and conglomorating some of those pink territories. OR make pink a territory and white a territory and then make it a two territory bonus region.

Wow, that would be a big change to the map... I don't think Farang would like the idea, and i for sure do not like the idea as those are some KEY states in Thailand... anyone that knows anything about Thailand or has been here before would recognize a lot of those states in those 2 areas... I get what your saying tho, something like what the lux map has... I wouldn't really want to go in that direction, i like the inset.

-griff

[Industrial Helix]

Yeah, i know quite little about Thailand and have not been there so... but I do work in a Thai restaurant. Just an idea though. I think that generally, insets ought not be used if at all possible. But if those states are as key as you say, then perhaps its unavoidable.

[grifftron]

Yeah, i know quite little about Thailand and have not been there so... but I do work in a Thai restaurant. Just an idea though. I think that generally, insets ought not be used if at all possible. But if those states are as key as you say, then perhaps its unavoidable.

Yea, thanks for understanding, i know that there is very little maps on CC with insets, and this one would not have one if these states were not key and if they weren't so small! But they are important states and are recognized to those that know things about Thailand.

-griff

[FarangDemon]

I'm back from my bicycle trip in Laos... Thanks, griff, for your hard work and everybody else for your constructive and thoughtful feedback.

Here are just a few of my thoughts:

Cultural Icons vs Army Bases

I appreciate how clean the map looks without the cultural icons, so I'm OK with dropping them. I wouldn't want anybody to decide not to play this map because it looked to complicated with all the weird looking icons. Though it would be nice to convey the culture of Thailand. Would it be possible to include them within the map but not inside the territs or constituting any part of the gameplay? Kind of around the periphery of the territories?

Airports

Can we move the airport to Phuket instead of Trang? It would be more realistic as that airport receives much more traffic because of tourism. The island is small but could we put the airport icon below the Phuket label?

Train

It was suggested early on to use trains instead of planes. I think we had concerns about complexity, but if we could do it without cluttering the map further, I have a suggestion for the route:

Bangkok - Ayutthaya - Nakhon Sawan - Phitsanulok - Chiang Mai
Bangkok - Ayutthaya - Khorat - Surin - Ubon Ratchatani

There are more routes going to other places, but these would add the most connectivity with the least additional complexity.

If we decide to implement this, I think we can remove the airport at Chiang Mai (as it now has train connectivity) and only have Samut Prakan to Phuket, simplifying things a little.

Mekong River

Another way to add a bit of connectivity would be to have a one way attack from Chiang Rai to Loei and Leoi to Ubon Ratchatani via the Mekong River (it flows North to South). Could make it go through a killer neutral with 2 armies on it.


Names

Here are the Thai names from one of my previous posts if we are going to go with them:

Bonus Super Regions (with subregions)

North East - Phak Isan (Khorat Basin, Lower Mekong, Upper Mekong)
North - Phak Neua (Lower North, Upper North)
South - Phak Tai (South, Deep South)
Center - Phak Klang (Central Plains, Bangkok Metro

Bonus regions that are not part of super bonus regions

West - Phak Tawan-Tok
East - Phak Tawan-Ok

[natty dread]

I don't think you should add trains on the map. You have a lot going on already, trains would just needlessly complicate the map.

[Evil DIMwit]

I don't think you should add trains on the map. You have a lot going on already, trains would just needlessly complicate the map.

Seconded. Airports work fine for transportation as it is.

[FarangDemon]

Ok, ditch the trains. Agreed it would complicate things further.

So my current suggestions are:

• Move airport from Trang to Phuket
• Add Mekong River graphically and the connectivity Chiang Rai -> Loei, Loei -> Mukdahan (I suggest this because maybe making it hit Ubon Ratchatani makes the Lower Mekong bonus a bit untenable) The Mekong River is an essential part of Thai identity (at least in Isan) and this could help add some connectivity.
• Add to the legend the bonus for holding the entire superregions - Phak Neua, Phak Klang, Phak Isan, Phak Tai. The concept is the same as in World 2.1 or NYC where you have bonus super regions which yield a bonus greater than the sum of the parts. You can use that program to determine what the bonus should be for the entire super region. If that bonus turns out to be less than the sum of the parts, then you'll need to add a few to it, though.

[grifftron]

Ok, ditch the trains. Agreed it would complicate things further.

So my current suggestions are:

• Move airport from Trang to Phuket
• Add Mekong River graphically and the connectivity Chiang Rai -> Loei, Loei -> Mukdahan (I suggest this because maybe making it hit Ubon Ratchatani makes the Lower Mekong bonus a bit untenable) The Mekong River is an essential part of Thai identity (at least in Isan) and this could help add some connectivity.
• Add to the legend the bonus for holding the entire superregions - Phak Neua, Phak Klang, Phak Isan, Phak Tai. The concept is the same as in World 2.1 or NYC where you have bonus super regions which yield a bonus greater than the sum of the parts. You can use that program to determine what the bonus should be for the entire super region. If that bonus turns out to be less than the sum of the parts, then you'll need to add a few to it, though.

OK. I will work on these when i get some down time.

-griff

[grifftron]

Moved southern airport from Trang to Phuket as Phuket brings in a lot more people in RL. Also made changes according to Farangs last post. Put in Makong river (its ugly looking, i know, just wanting to see what you guys say about it first), anyways Makong river has a few connections which makes it nice to get around on the side there. And I put up the key for the super region bonuses.


[bigimg]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/5044541150_99012847c1_b.jpg[/bigimg]

-griff

[Victor Sullivan]

My current suggestions:

1. Allow Tak to attack Kanchana buri (and vice versa) in the West.
2. Make Phak Tai +8, Phak Nua +14, Phak Klang +11, and Phak Isan +14. (I can explain my reasonings if you'd like)
3. Make the Mekong River thing more obvious, especially make it more obvious that it touches Loei.

-Sully

[Evil DIMwit]

Are the super regions really necessary? Anyone holding one of these sets is already putting out a good number of troops and I doubt a couple more would be worth the added map complexity.

If you do decide to use the Mekong for transportation, come up with some icon to put in the selected territories so they're easy to tell at a glance.

[Victor Sullivan]

Are the super regions really necessary? Anyone holding one of these sets is already putting out a good number of troops and I doubt a couple more would be worth the added map complexity.

If you do decide to use the Mekong for transportation, come up with some icon to put in the selected territories so they're easy to tell at a glance.

Valid points, Wit. Now, does the Mekong River require the bonuses it attacks to be higher?

[Evil DIMwit]

Are the super regions really necessary? Anyone holding one of these sets is already putting out a good number of troops and I doubt a couple more would be worth the added map complexity.

If you do decide to use the Mekong for transportation, come up with some icon to put in the selected territories so they're easy to tell at a glance.

Valid points, Wit. Now, does the Mekong River require the bonuses it attacks to be higher?

No, because only one gains a border territory and I think Upper North still looks like a 5 in this case.

[army of nobunaga]

i agree with IH man...

make the white a territory, merge some of it.

You have to remember its a game. The map is wonderful and accurate, but those timy's will be tough to work with. And at some point functionality for play will have to come into it. If not you will have a beautiful map that not a lot of people like to play. I could name some examples here.

I like the idea of merging some of the territorys, and calling them "Regions" .

just 2 cents

[FarangDemon]

Are the super regions really necessary? Anyone holding one of these sets is already putting out a good number of troops and I doubt a couple more would be worth the added map complexity.

The reason for the super bonus regions is not because the possessors of the constituent subregions really require more armies, but it is to depict the traditional geographical division of the country into regions (North, South, Northeast, Central). The best way to convey this part-whole relationship, like in NYC or World 2.1, is to make a super bonus region.

Maybe we can simplify the presentation of this information by using a single legend containing all this information like in NYC.

1. Allow Tak to attack Kanchana buri (and vice versa) in the West.

Yes it is strange, though not without precedent, to have a territory within a bonus region that is not adjacent to the rest of the territories within the bonus region. However, there really is no paved road connecting the two provinces, as it becomes a dense mountainous jungle. So I think it's ok for it to match reality in this case. It makes the west a more interesting bonus region, albeit much more difficult to attain (maybe increase it to +6?)

That being said, it might be more fun to play if there were a break in the mountain pass.
If you guys think it would make it much more fun to play that way, then I'm for it, too.

Best solution - Mountain Pass Killer Neutral

There is one solution that would model the reality and still make it possible for the would-be West bonus possessor to consolidate his bonus without having to go around through the neighboring bonus region's provinces.

We could use a killer neutral (2) to facilitate attack from Tak <--> Kanchanaburi. This would most accurately model the fact that any army is going to lose time, energy and materials trying to get through that dense jungle. Still, it gives the player a decent chance to consolidate the bonus, improving enjoyability.

make the white a territory, merge some of it.

You have to remember its a game. The map is wonderful and accurate, but those timy's will be tough to work with. And at some point functionality for play will have to come into it. If not you will have a beautiful map that not a lot of people like to play. I could name some examples here.

I get your point. We could just make the white be one region, Bangkok Metropolitan Area, or maybe just Bangkok for short. It has the airport, army base and link to the ship all on the same region. Like IH recommended, we can make it start neutral and be +1.

I am hesitant to merge any more of the pink ones, though. They should be easy enough to read with the large inset (maybe can make the pink part in the inset even larger since white is not in focal point of inset anymore)

The only way to remove the inset entirely would be to merge the pink provinces into just 3 territories. Like griff said, these pink provinces are a fundamental part of the Thai landscape and it would really suck to lose even more fidelity by merging them further (they are already the products of multiple consolidations).

[army of nobunaga]

I see what you are saying.

[Victor Sullivan]

1. Allow Tak to attack Kanchana buri (and vice versa) in the West.

Yes it is strange, though not without precedent, to have a territory within a bonus region that is not adjacent to the rest of the territories within the bonus region. However, there really is no paved road connecting the two provinces, as it becomes a dense mountainous jungle. So I think it's ok for it to match reality in this case. It makes the west a more interesting bonus region, albeit much more difficult to attain (maybe increase it to +6?)

That being said, it might be more fun to play if there were a break in the mountain pass.
If you guys think it would make it much more fun to play that way, then I'm for it, too.

Best solution - Mountain Pass Killer Neutral

There is one solution that would model the reality and still make it possible for the would-be West bonus possessor to consolidate his bonus without having to go around through the neighboring bonus region's provinces.

We could use a killer neutral (2) to facilitate attack from Tak <--> Kanchanaburi. This would most accurately model the fact that any army is going to lose time, energy and materials trying to get through that dense jungle. Still, it gives the player a decent chance to consolidate the bonus, improving enjoyability.

I think the killer neutral would be a bit much and clutter the legend (though I think it'd be really cool, I'm just afraid not many others would be keen on the killer neutral mountain pass). If you want to keep the mountains there, that's fine, but I would suggest the +6 bonus. Would it be acceptable to remove the mountains between Kanchana buri and Uthai thani? Otherwise, you have to go through four territories to go from Kanchana buri to Tak.

-Sully

[FarangDemon]

Ok let's see what griff thinks. Griff, if you think there is room, you could just add a label to the left of the border between Kanchanaburi and Tak, left of the Thai border. Can call it "Mountain Pass" and make a trail linking it to Tak and Kanchanaburi. Then we just say in legend, "Mountain Pass is a killer neutral".

This would be super cool.

If this is too much, I see yet another simpler alternative.... could just draw an arrow through the mountain pass going from Kanchanaburi to Tak and say in the legend that the arrow means 1 way attack. This conveys that that pass is precarious and still gives someone a chance to consolidate the bonus region from the direction of where most of the regions lie.

[grifftron]

Farang and I talked about it and the inset is now removed. We merged the pink region into 3 states and the BKK metro into just 1 state "Bangkok" which will start out as either a 1 or 2 neutral and will be worth 1 bonus troop. Messed around with the key a bit and added the super bonuses above in black, just like in NYC or W2.1 maps. I didn't pay much attention to what you guys wanted regions to be worth yet, just trying to get this inset off and figure some of this other stuff out first.

We also have the Mekong river on the east side now with 3 different ferry ports that connect to neighboring ports (as shown in the key).

Also took the army region out of BKK area as that tert is gone now, but Farang said it would be OK to put it in Chonburi as their is a naval base there, so we will use that as the new base. If anyone has problems with this i could possibly change the wording of the key a bit.

try not to rip me apart on graphics yet guys, i wanna get things set how we want them first before taking the time to make it look better.

[bigimg]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4149/5051182494_2e4a18a3b1_b.jpg[/bigimg]

-griff

[Evil DIMwit]

To summarize: Which territories start neutral now?

[grifftron]

To summarize: Which territories start neutral now?

BKK & the HTMS

-griff

[Evil DIMwit]

That makes 58 deployable territories; that's good.

[army of nobunaga]

that looks a lot better imo... this is shaping up nicely.