Version 11.6 FRANCE 2.1

[nolefan5311]

Can you please post the version with starting neutrals?

[isaiah40]

Oneyed, thanks for your advice... The enlarged Paris was an advice of koontz1973... So we had get the other territories of Ile de France out of the zoom...

Sorry Oneyed, we are in the main foundry now, so we won't continu to change the map cartographically speacking, otherwise, we could change this card indefinitely... We have to move forward now

Well Oneyed does have a point, and it is gameplay related. Making this change will help players see what can be attacked from where. Looking at the inset of Paris and looking at the map it is hard to tell what is where, so please make the change. You will find that there will be changes that will have to be made all the way through up to the map being quenched. Even then, sometimes changes are made after it's been quenched years later!

[Mishalex]

Can you please post the version with starting neutrals?

They are notice in the first post no?

Is it good enough?

[nolefan5311]

Can you please post the version with starting neutrals?

They are notice in the first post no?

Is it good enough?

I don't see it. Just putting a "n3" on the neutral regions is all I need.

Thanks.

[Mishalex]

Oh ok, let's do it so... thanks

[Lancelot du Lac]

done !

Last update
VERSION 8.1.2
1. Map Name France 2.0
2. Version 8.1 [2 August 2012]
3. Dimension : 915 * 927

Click image to enlarge.

[nolefan5311]

Thanks! Can you update this in the first post as well? I will take a look in the next few days and post any suggested changes.

[jghost7]

Some thoughts and concerns:
The bonus's seem a bit high. One example, BZH seems like it should be a +3.
Also, for Corsica to have a regional claim bonus and a regular bonus for the same 2 regions does not make any sense. You can either add another Free Corse region or just make it a single bonus.


How the the foreign claim territories work? What do they attack/bombard? What attacks or bombards them? The key states "Only Paris can attacked these territories."

Should it say ' Only Paris can be attacked by these territories."
or ' Only Paris can attack these territories.'

Can a foreign claim territory attack out? For instance, can I take Paris and go through Monaco and hit Alpes-Maritime?

Only 33 neutrals to go through to hold the VC; Paris is rather such a focus here as all of the Foreign claims can only be hit by Paris too? So to try for the VC you only have to focus on Paris. It is wholly attainable from there. You can only attack foreign claims from Paris anyways so no one can break winning condition except by Paris. This seems to be a bit unbalanced.

Also just a thought, It might be better to start the foreign claim territories as a 5-10 neutral with capability to bombard Paris. Make them only accessible from the territory they are in. ie..only Nord attacks Wallonie. Another possible twist on this idea would be to have all the foreign claims to be able to bombard each other (and Paris mutually?). It would come into play when you get the Paris area and Wallonie. Lets say that I cash and try to break your winning condition from Jura to Jura Suisse to bombard Wallonie....

Just some quick thoughts....


Thanks,

J

[koontz1973]

The +8 for the Paris bonus will never be given as it is the winning condition. Remove it from the legend.
I have posted it before and now jghost7 has said it as well. Something needs to be done around the Paris and Foreign/Regional claims. I like his idea for having it reversed. Foreign claims attack/bombard Paris and each other. This is a nice way to open up the board some.
No one is really going to attack the foreign claims now as to do so, you are very close to the WC.

I really love the shields you have for the regional claims. They work fantastic.
Can BZH go to another colour as it is very close to Paris and the surrounding territs. This may cause confusion to some players.
With Corsica, how about dropping both bonuses to a +1. Then you get the +2 for holding it which seems fair and you get to keep both the GP elements for it.

Great work by the way. Really looking forward to this now.

[nolefan5311]

The +8 for the Paris bonus will never be given as it is the winning condition. Remove it from the legend.

I disagree. To hold that bonus also requires the additional three regions outside of the neutral starters, and the WC requires one of the regional claims to be held, so it is possible that someone can hold that bonus while not necessarily holding the winning condition. I agree it's not likely that a person will hold that bonus without holding the WC, but there's no reason to remove the bonus completely.

I have posted it before and now jghost7 has said it as well. Something needs to be done around the Paris and Foreign/Regional claims. I like his idea for having it reversed. Foreign claims attack/bombard Paris and each other. This is a nice way to open up the board some.
No one is really going to attack the foreign claims now as to do so, you are very close to the WC.

I agree with both koontz and jghost here. I like the idea of the foreign claims also being able to attack Paris as that provides a way for someone to defend against their opponent taking the winning condition without necessarily having to break into the Paris area. As is, those regions will never be taken so I think adjacent regions should be able to attack them as well. This would also allow a player to tap down the neutrals on Paris from afar should they have eyes on the winning condition.

With Corsica, how about dropping both bonuses to a +1. Then you get the +2 for holding it which seems fair and you get to keep both the GP elements for it.

I'm confused...does this equal a +4 in total? If so, it needs to be lowered to a +2 total, possibly even a +1 (I will confirm after running the numbers). This is confusing with all of the Regional Claims too, as jghost pointed out. The repetition of the bonuses needs to be clarified, or maybe remove the bonus from the mini-map and just put the shield there, so that a player will reference the Claim area when trying to distinguish the value of the bonus.

Great work by the way. Really looking forward to this now.

Agreed. This map looks FANTASTIC (though I'm not a graphics guy). Very pretty.

[koontz1973]

The +8 for the Paris bonus will never be given as it is the winning condition. Remove it from the legend.

I disagree. To hold that bonus also requires the additional three regions outside of the neutral starters, and the WC requires one of the regional claims to be held, so it is possible that someone can hold that bonus while not necessarily holding the winning condition. I agree it's not likely that a person will hold that bonus without holding the WC, but there's no reason to remove the bonus completely.

Missed that. You are right. Keep it in.

[pamoa]

I suggest

keep the one way attack scheme Paris>Foreign claims>target Département
but add counterstrike bombardment possibilities Foreign claims>other Foreign claims and Paris + target Département>respective Foreign claim
and widen the victory condition to the whole Île-de-France region + maybe 2 Foreign claim

remove the Corsica regional bonus and keep only the free Corsica bonus
you can't earn anything from this island except if you are Corsican

bonuses seem a bit high. One example, BZH seems like it should be a +3

all bonuses or only regional claims
-1 to them all or ... ?

[Lancelot du Lac]

Here are the latest changes :

- Another color for region BZH
- We keep the bonus regions as shown here. (the number of territories in the region corresponding to the bonus region)
- We decided to reduce the free bonus of Corse (+1)
- We improved the rule for the foreign claims : « Can bombard and can be attacked by Paris »


Last update
VERSION 8.2
1. Map Name France 2.0
2. Version 8.2 [6 August 2012]
3. Dimension : 915 * 927

Click image to enlarge.

[nolefan5311]

Have you thought about using the new conditional border feature in the map in any way?

[Mishalex]

Have you thought about using the new conditional border feature in the map in any way?

What's that?

[koontz1973]

Have you thought about using the new conditional border feature in the map in any way?

What's that?

You can programme into the game that you can only attack Paris if you hold a certain territory.

So to attack territ A, you must hold territ B or you cannot do it.

For me, this map does not need it but it is something that is worth thinking about.

[Mishalex]

Oh, ok, I'm not sure we need that on this map... Why were you thinking at this, Nole?

[koontz1973]

Oh, ok, I'm not sure we need that on this map... Why were you thinking at this, Nole?

It is a new toy to play with and he wants to see it in play badly.

[nolefan5311]

Of course it's not needed, it was just a suggestion to add some complexity to the map and to take advantage of the new xml capabilities. Since the Regional and Foreign claims are a unique aspect of this map, I thought it would be cool to use the conditional borders because Paris is already being used for long range attacks anyway.

A few suggestions unrelated to conditional borders...

-Lower the bonus for Free Bretagne to a +1 as well...this would clear up a lot of legend space if you could word it similar to the Foreign Claim box. That large bonus of +4 also should not be increased by 2 for holding one more additional region.

-Think about having suburbs 2, 3, and 4 a slightly different color to be more easily distinguishable from the outer ring of suburbs and from Paris itself.

-For foreign claims, think about stating (on two separate lines)..
"Can bombard Paris"
"Can be attacked by Paris"

-Also, think about making it a requirement for a foreign claim to be held as part of the winning condition. Would add extra importance to them

-Why is "Riots" in there after "Suburbs"? Seems out of place when nothing else on the map makes me think there are any sort of riots going on.

And I still think something needs to be done about the Regional claim bonuses as the mini-map bonuses and the separate bonuses for the Regional claims still could cause some confusion. Maybe just think about making them there own bonuses entirely, and removing the geographis bonus zones for those regions?

[nolefan5311]

Oh, ok, I'm not sure we need that on this map... Why were you thinking at this, Nole?

It is a new toy to play with and he wants to see it in play badly.

And it fits this map in particular because of the winning condition and the Regional/Foreign claim.

[Lancelot du Lac]

Here are the latest changes :
- symbol to suburb riots
- victory condition

-Why is "Riots" in there after "Suburbs"? Seems out of place when nothing else on the map makes me think there are any sort of riots going on.

There are three possibilities to overthrow Paris on the map :
- riots suburbs : suburban revolt
- regional claims
- foreign claims

For foreign claims, think about stating (on two separate lines)..
"Can bombard Paris"
"Can be attacked by Paris"

I can't do this modification, I have no free place on legend

Last update
VERSION 8.2.1
1. Map Name France 2.0
2. Version 8.2 [7 August 2012]
3. Dimension : 915 * 927

Click image to enlarge.

[Mishalex]

-Lower the bonus for Free Bretagne to a +1 as well...this would clear up a lot of legend space if you could word it similar to the Foreign Claim box. That large bonus of +4 also should not be increased by 2 for holding one more additional region.

True, that could permit to gain some space on the map...

[nolefan5311]

-Lower the bonus for Free Bretagne to a +1 as well...this would clear up a lot of legend space if you could word it similar to the Foreign Claim box. That large bonus of +4 also should not be increased by 2 for holding one more additional region.

True, that could permit to gain some space on the map...

That was my thinking as well. I still need to run the bonus numbers, but I can guarantee the current bonuses will need to be reduced. I will try to post those numbers tonight or tomorrow night.

[Lancelot du Lac]

I will try to post those numbers tonight or tomorrow night.

Thank you very much. Meanwhile, here are the latest changes.

Last update
VERSION 8.2.2
1. Map Name France 2.0
2. Version 8.2.2 [8 August 2012]
3. Dimension : 915 * 927

Click image to enlarge.

[nolefan5311]

Ok, I've run the numbers, and as far as the regular bonuses are concerned this is what we're looking at:

• N. - Currently a +2 needs to be reduced to a +1
• Lor. - Currently a +4 needs to be reduced to a +3. One region (Meuse) is completely secluded and does not need to maintain defensive troops
• Alsace needs to be reduced to a +1. It's only two regions, and one of those regions borders a starting neutral
• F.C. also needs to be reduced to a +3 (+2 for F.C. and the +1 for the Regional Claim) as the continent itself is +4 and there is a +1 for the Regional Claim which needs to be held as part of the regular continent anyway.
• B.Z.H. by itself (without the shield) needs to be reduced to a +2. That continent can be defended entirely by holding Ille et Vilaine and Morbihan. Another issue arises when you include the shield bonus as I can just move those defensive troops to Loire-Atlantique and gain an additional +1 (for a total of a +5) without having an additional border to defend. I suggest you further reduce BZH to a +1 so the composite bonus of BZH and the Bretagne shield drops to a +2 total.
• A similar issue arises with Rhones-Alps as the composite bonus with the Regional Claim (contained entirely in that continent) and the continent is a total of a +9. The calculator suggests a total bonus of 6.42, so lowering the total bonus for both to a +6 total would solve that problem (+5 for Rhonne Alps and the +1 for the Regional Claim)
• The composite bonus of Paca, Corse, and the Regional Claim equals a total of 9 when the calculator indicates it should be a total bonus of 3.42. I can hold that entire chain of bonuses by defending only from Haute-Alpes, Alpes de Haute Provence, and Vaucluse. This needs significant changes either in the way of additional attack routes in, more borders to defend, or a significant reduction in the total bonus for this region.
• And another similar issue arises with the composite bonus of B.N., H.N., and Free Normandie. Holding those 5 regions totals yields a composite bonus of 6 when this should be lowered to no higher than a 5 total, preferably a 4. What do you think about combining that entire district and just labeling it Free Normandie? That would allow you to remove the starting neutral on Eure.
• The complete Paris bonus is listed at +8, but to hold that you also need to hold the inner suburbs which yields an additional +3, for a total of +11 when it probably should not be higher than 6 total. I understand the amount of neutrals to take is 30, but I'm not sure how I feel about it.

It looks like most of the issues arise with the Regional Claim composite bonuses so they should be relatively easy fixed. One thing I am unclear on is on the Foreign Claims. Wallonie and Nord will in fact have separate armies on them, correct? Or is that the same region? If it's the same region, have you thought about just making that actual region the color of the Claim shield?