Communist + White House =/= United States

[thegreekdog]

Anarkistsdream,

(1) Apologies on the ignorant comment are forthcoming depending upon your answer to #2.

(2) Please tell me what your stance on the situation is. Otherwise, I'm going to assume someone that asks for proof that a group of people aren't racist is, in fact, ignorant. You could have cleared this up after your first post, but you've chosen, instead, to confuse the issue by concentraing on other things. So, I will attempt to put those other things to rest:

(a) The newsbabe did not call the man a racist, nor was the man protesting healthcare. I was confused as I had not watched the video in some time.
(b) Additionally, I also was incorrect about Janeane Garafolo, who called the tea party folks racist, not the healthcare protestors racist.
(c) As an aside, I will always and readily admit that I'm wrong (I'm assuming your knowledge about me is as lacking as my knowledge about you).

(3) So, we can either continue on this merry-go-round of you insulting my intelligence and me insulting yours, or you can tell me IF YOU ACTUALLY THINK THE HEALTHCARE PROTESTORS ARE RACIST. If you answer that question "no," I will apologize to you and move on. If you answer that question "yes," you are ignorant and we can continue this debate. If you continue to not answer the question, my posts will get increasingly longwinded (like this one).

[DangerBoy]

Anarkistsdream,

we can either continue on this merry-go-round of you insulting my intelligence and me insulting yours, or you can tell me IF YOU ACTUALLY THINK THE HEALTHCARE PROTESTORS ARE RACIST.

Don't count on actual legitimate answer from that guy, greek. He typically goes around insulting anyone who has the audacity to disagree with his views. If you take away his ability to go around childishly calling other people names he tries to turn the focus back on the person he's arguing against and make it look like they're the one with the problem.

[thegreekdog]

Anarkistsdream,

we can either continue on this merry-go-round of you insulting my intelligence and me insulting yours, or you can tell me IF YOU ACTUALLY THINK THE HEALTHCARE PROTESTORS ARE RACIST.

Don't count on actual legitimate answer from that guy, greek. He typically goes around insulting anyone who has the audacity to disagree with his views. If you take away his ability to go around childishly calling other people names he tries to turn the focus back on the person he's arguing against and make it look like they're the one with the problem.

Thanks, I figured.

[Night Strike]

(2) You pointed out, originally, that you wanted some kind of proof that healthcare protestors were not racist. Does this seem a little strange to you? It does to me for two reasons. One, you presume to ask for evidence proving that people aren't racist. I think it would go the opposite way. In other words, you would presume people aren't racist and then ask for proof that they are. So, there's that.

Very nice.

Here's the newsbusters story where MSNBC edited the clip of the black man carrying a weapon, and then used it to say "A man at a pro-health care reform rally...wore a semiautomatic assault rifle on his shoulder and a pistol on his hip....there are questions about whether this has racial overtones....white people showing up with guns."
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-drennen/2009/08/18/msnbc-no-mention-black-gun-owner-among-racist-protesters

[PLAYER57832]

(2) You pointed out, originally, that you wanted some kind of proof that healthcare protestors were not racist. Does this seem a little strange to you? It does to me for two reasons. One, you presume to ask for evidence proving that people aren't racist. I think it would go the opposite way. In other words, you would presume people aren't racist and then ask for proof that they are. So, there's that.

Very nice.

Here's the newsbusters story where MSNBC edited the clip of the black man carrying a weapon, and then used it to say "A man at a pro-health care reform rally...wore a semiautomatic assault rifle on his shoulder and a pistol on his hip....there are questions about whether this has racial overtones....white people showing up with guns."
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-drennen/2009/08/18/msnbc-no-mention-black-gun-owner-among-racist-protesters

Nice to see how on-topic this thread is

The only thing that makes me thing people are racist is when they keep insisting they are not racist.

From Shakespeare -- "though doth protesteth too much"

(and note-- I have not waded through all the back and forth and don't even know all the people involved in the conversation above. I make no condemnation of anyone, I just make the observation)

[Anarkistsdream]

Anarkistsdream,

we can either continue on this merry-go-round of you insulting my intelligence and me insulting yours, or you can tell me IF YOU ACTUALLY THINK THE HEALTHCARE PROTESTORS ARE RACIST.

Don't count on actual legitimate answer from that guy, greek. He typically goes around insulting anyone who has the audacity to disagree with his views. If you take away his ability to go around childishly calling other people names he tries to turn the focus back on the person he's arguing against and make it look like they're the one with the problem.

Who the hell are you to say anything about me? Another person who doesn't know me, nor has ever had a conversation with me, yet makes generic stereotypes because... Because what? I would like to see where you find that I have done this, without contributing anything legitimate to the conversation.

Now, on to Greek.

My stance on the situation is this:
Protesters... The people you actually SEE on television, not only the ones interviewed, are a very small minority in the grand scheme of health care protesters... Most protesters are not going out, armed or otherwise, and causing the general raucous behavior that we are seeing. The ones that ARE doing this, yes, I think a great many of them have racist feelings. I think many of them are die-hard Republicans who backed Bush up until the bitter end and would rather have had Sarah Palin running this country than Barack...

I am against most of the current theories I have heard dealing with health care, however, I am for a government run program- something aside from Welfare, Blue Cross, etc. I think this is where a number of the educated, which I would include you in, Greek, disagree with what few things have actually been officially disclosed about the plan. Now, where you differ I don't know, but I assume you to be a rational person.

So, while I did not give you a 'no' to your question, I hope you see where I am coming from, and the reason why I said what I did, even if we agree to disagree.

[Anarkistsdream]

(2) You pointed out, originally, that you wanted some kind of proof that healthcare protestors were not racist. Does this seem a little strange to you? It does to me for two reasons. One, you presume to ask for evidence proving that people aren't racist. I think it would go the opposite way. In other words, you would presume people aren't racist and then ask for proof that they are. So, there's that.

Very nice.

Here's the newsbusters story where MSNBC edited the clip of the black man carrying a weapon, and then used it to say "A man at a pro-health care reform rally...wore a semiautomatic assault rifle on his shoulder and a pistol on his hip....there are questions about whether this has racial overtones....white people showing up with guns."
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-drennen/2009/08/18/msnbc-no-mention-black-gun-owner-among-racist-protesters

MSNBC is not a reliable news agency to me, so I am not surprised by this. However, it doesn't prove anything in this discussion.

[thegreekdog]

Good, thanks Anarkistdream. I apologize for calling you ignorant. There, now that was easy.

I agree that there are different types of anti-universal healthcare "protestors" (for lack of a better term). You have the people who just don't like Democrats (probably the "racists" you're referring to, although I don't necessarily think they are racist per se). You have the insurance companies (who, I think, are actually going to really like whatever comes out as the healthcare plan). And you have people like me (libertarians, Rockefeller Republicans, whatever) who want some kind of change and/or universal healthcare, but did not agree with the former plan.

In sum, I see where you are coming from. However, you (and others, I don't want this to seem like I'm picking on you) are marginalizing the actual debate by calling healthcare protestors racist. This has been the tactic of President Obama's administration, the Democractic party in general, and various and sundry media outlets. Basically, the strategy is to make anyone who doesn't want the Democrats' plan seem like idiots, crazy people, or racists so that the moderate citizen will assume that the plan is good so they don't identify with idiots, crazy people, or racists. While that strategy is very sound (I think), it's very sneaky and not constructive to any kind of public debate about how best to cure our healthcare problems. So, I hope you'll understand my taking issue with you insinuating (in your first post) that all healthcare protestors are racist.

[Anarkistsdream]

Good, thanks Anarkistdream. I apologize for calling you ignorant. There, now that was easy.

I agree that there are different types of anti-universal healthcare "protestors" (for lack of a better term). You have the people who just don't like Democrats (probably the "racists" you're referring to, although I don't necessarily think they are racist per se). You have the insurance companies (who, I think, are actually going to really like whatever comes out as the healthcare plan). And you have people like me (libertarians, Rockefeller Republicans, whatever) who want some kind of change and/or universal healthcare, but did not agree with the former plan.

In sum, I see where you are coming from. However, you (and others, I don't want this to seem like I'm picking on you) are marginalizing the actual debate by calling healthcare protestors racist. This has been the tactic of President Obama's administration, the Democractic party in general, and various and sundry media outlets. Basically, the strategy is to make anyone who doesn't want the Democrats' plan seem like idiots, crazy people, or racists so that the moderate citizen will assume that the plan is good so they don't identify with idiots, crazy people, or racists. While that strategy is very sound (I think), it's very sneaky and not constructive to any kind of public debate about how best to cure our healthcare problems. So, I hope you'll understand my taking issue with you insinuating (in your first post) that all healthcare protestors are racist.

I totally understand your second paragraph. My only feelings are that the name-calling and stereotyping isn't new to this issue. Hell, the Conservatives bashed anti-war Democrats, calling them names and generally being bitches. God-loving military men and women have been brow-beating non-Christian soldiers for this entire war- I know that because one of my buddies is an atheist, and he got TONS of shit because he didn't believe in God, even though he was still risking his life in Iraq.

I mean, mud-slinging is part of any new legislation, especially when it is something this big.

I admit, the way I phrased my first long post should have been done better. It was easy to misunderstand what I typed and I apologize for taking such offense to it and not paying attention more to how I wrote my thoughts.

[vodean]

Good, thanks Anarkistdream. I apologize for calling you ignorant. There, now that was easy.

I agree that there are different types of anti-universal healthcare "protestors" (for lack of a better term). You have the people who just don't like Democrats (probably the "racists" you're referring to, although I don't necessarily think they are racist per se). You have the insurance companies (who, I think, are actually going to really like whatever comes out as the healthcare plan). And you have people like me (libertarians, Rockefeller Republicans, whatever) who want some kind of change and/or universal healthcare, but did not agree with the former plan.

In sum, I see where you are coming from. However, you (and others, I don't want this to seem like I'm picking on you) are marginalizing the actual debate by calling healthcare protestors racist. This has been the tactic of President Obama's administration, the Democractic party in general, and various and sundry media outlets. Basically, the strategy is to make anyone who doesn't want the Democrats' plan seem like idiots, crazy people, or racists so that the moderate citizen will assume that the plan is good so they don't identify with idiots, crazy people, or racists. While that strategy is very sound (I think), it's very sneaky and not constructive to any kind of public debate about how best to cure our healthcare problems. So, I hope you'll understand my taking issue with you insinuating (in your first post) that all healthcare protestors are racist.

I totally understand your second paragraph. My only feelings are that the name-calling and stereotyping isn't new to this issue. Hell, the Conservatives bashed anti-war Democrats, calling them names and generally being bitches. God-loving military men and women have been brow-beating non-Christian soldiers for this entire war- I know that because one of my buddies is an atheist, and he got TONS of shit because he didn't believe in God, even though he was still risking his life in Iraq.

I mean, mud-slinging is part of any new legislation, especially when it is something this big.

I admit, the way I phrased my first long post should have been done better. It was easy to misunderstand what I typed and I apologize for taking such offense to it and not paying attention more to how I wrote my thoughts.

and yet aside from the apology which you make every single post, you still sound like a douche who can't come up with any real evidence and is simply republican-bashing. Im saying this from a neutral stance as an observer on this debate.

[Timminz]

September 11th, 2009: this thread died.



May 31st, 2011: Vodean decides it's time to insult a member who has since left CC, while adding nothing to the discussion.




That's some serious dedication to a long-held grudge, if I've ever seen it. Not to mention, a ban-able offence.

[BigBallinStalin]

September 11th, 2009: this thread died.



May 31st, 2011: Vodean decides it's time to insult a member who has since left CC, while adding nothing to the discussion.




That's some serious dedication to a long-held grudge, if I've ever seen it. Not to mention, a ban-able offence.

Yeah, but he held a "neutral stance" while saying it!!!1

[vodean]

i didn't check the post time on the other posts. sorry to whoever this bothered

[PLAYER57832]

In sum, I see where you are coming from. However, you (and others, I don't want this to seem like I'm picking on you) are marginalizing the actual debate by calling healthcare protestors racist. This has been the tactic of President Obama's administration, the Democractic party in general, and various and sundry media outlets. Basically, the strategy is to make anyone who doesn't want the Democrats' plan seem like idiots, crazy people, or racists so that the moderate citizen will assume that the plan is good so they don't identify with idiots, crazy people, or racists. While that strategy is very sound (I think), it's very sneaky and not constructive to any kind of public debate about how best to cure our healthcare problems. .

I take serious issue with this idea that Democrats or Obama are calling anyone who disagrees "racist." In fact, it is essentially the opposite folks who don't like the Democrats, etc are quick to say any criticism of bias, hatred, etc is the same as calling them racists.. and therefore to be disregarded.

Both tactics (those who throw out racism without justification and those who claim just about any disagreement is an accusation of racism) are very harmful and merely serve to polarize and remove any real "debate" from the debate. (turning them into "he said..but he said" arguments instead).

On the plus side... I am just old enough to see great progress in the fact that calling someone a racist has become such a universally nasty thing. There was a day when calling someone "n***r" or shoving a black into only the most menial jobs, etc were all simply "how things were"... and a time that is still within many of our lifetimes.

So, angry though that debate is... it is still progress. So, maybe there is hope we can resolve this healthcare issue after all????

[Timminz]

i didn't check the post time on the other posts.

So how did you dig it up? Did you just happen to be looking at page 123 in the forum?

[The Bison King]

I just want to say to Vodean, welcome to the forums! This is sort of an off topic forum where we talk about all things unrelated to conquer club.

[Phatscotty]

In sum, I see where you are coming from. However, you (and others, I don't want this to seem like I'm picking on you) are marginalizing the actual debate by calling healthcare protestors racist. This has been the tactic of President Obama's administration, the Democractic party in general, and various and sundry media outlets. Basically, the strategy is to make anyone who doesn't want the Democrats' plan seem like idiots, crazy people, or racists so that the moderate citizen will assume that the plan is good so they don't identify with idiots, crazy people, or racists. While that strategy is very sound (I think), it's very sneaky and not constructive to any kind of public debate about how best to cure our healthcare problems. .

I take serious issue with this idea that Democrats or Obama are calling anyone who disagrees "racist." In fact, it is essentially the opposite folks who don't like the Democrats, etc are quick to say any criticism of bias, hatred, etc is the same as calling them racists.. and therefore to be disregarded.

Both tactics (those who throw out racism without justification and those who claim just about any disagreement is an accusation of racism) are very harmful and merely serve to polarize and remove any real "debate" from the debate. (turning them into "he said..but he said" arguments instead).

On the plus side... I am just old enough to see great progress in the fact that calling someone a racist has become such a universally nasty thing. There was a day when calling someone "n***r" or shoving a black into only the most menial jobs, etc were all simply "how things were"... and a time that is still within many of our lifetimes.

So, angry though that debate is... it is still progress. So, maybe there is hope we can resolve this healthcare issue after all????

Actually, the race game is standard operating procedure for progressives.

It's been around for a long time, if you are just figuring this out now, congrats. Better late than never.

[Timminz]

the race game is standard operating procedure for progressives.

It's true! Racism, is totally not a regressive aspect of human culture. It's progressive!

[beezer]

“You know, I’m 70 years old, and I can tell you; people don’t like to deal with it, but the fact of the matter is, the president’s problems are in large measure because of the color of his skin.” - Jim Clyburn

“They [Republicans] get to take things out on poor people. Let’s be honest: The fact that some of the poor people are black doesn’t hurt them either, from their standpoint. This is an effort, I believe, to appeal to a kind of anger in people.” - Barney Frank

“Instead of joining us on the right side of history, all the Republicans can come up with is, ‘slow down, stop everything, let’s start over.’ If you think you’ve heard these same excuses before, you’re right,” When this country belatedly recognized the wrongs of slavery, there were those who dug in their heels and said ‘slow down, it’s too early, things aren’t bad enough.’" - Harry Reid

“I think an overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity toward President Barack Obama is based on the fact that he is a black man.” - Jimmy Carter

"We know what kind of campaign they're [Republicans] going to run. They're going to try to make you afraid. They're going to try to make you afraid of me. They're gonna....They're going to say, you know what, he's -- he's -- he's young, inexperienced, and, uh, uh, he's got a funny name. Did I mention he's black? - Barack Obama

"This is about hating a black man in the White House. This is racism straight up." - Janeane Garofalo

That was only a quick search that produced those. There's more than that. Race card maxed out - to be replaced by Player relabeling it as xenophobia or xenophobe so that she can't be accused of actually using the exact word "racist".

[PLAYER57832]

In sum, I see where you are coming from. However, you (and others, I don't want this to seem like I'm picking on you) are marginalizing the actual debate by calling healthcare protestors racist. This has been the tactic of President Obama's administration, the Democractic party in general, and various and sundry media outlets. Basically, the strategy is to make anyone who doesn't want the Democrats' plan seem like idiots, crazy people, or racists so that the moderate citizen will assume that the plan is good so they don't identify with idiots, crazy people, or racists. While that strategy is very sound (I think), it's very sneaky and not constructive to any kind of public debate about how best to cure our healthcare problems. .

I take serious issue with this idea that Democrats or Obama are calling anyone who disagrees "racist." In fact, it is essentially the opposite folks who don't like the Democrats, etc are quick to say any criticism of bias, hatred, etc is the same as calling them racists.. and therefore to be disregarded.

Both tactics (those who throw out racism without justification and those who claim just about any disagreement is an accusation of racism) are very harmful and merely serve to polarize and remove any real "debate" from the debate. (turning them into "he said..but he said" arguments instead).

On the plus side... I am just old enough to see great progress in the fact that calling someone a racist has become such a universally nasty thing. There was a day when calling someone "n***r" or shoving a black into only the most menial jobs, etc were all simply "how things were"... and a time that is still within many of our lifetimes.

So, angry though that debate is... it is still progress. So, maybe there is hope we can resolve this healthcare issue after all????

Actually, the race game is standard operating procedure for progressives.

It's been around for a long time, if you are just figuring this out now, congrats. Better late than never.

Yes, it was pretty progressive to be opposed to lynching.. not sure how you got the idea that being progressive was a bad thing, though.

[Night Strike]

Yes, it was pretty progressive to be opposed to lynching.. not sure how you got the idea that being progressive was a bad thing, though.

Bigger government, reliance upon government, enslavement by the government, choosing of which businesses/groups succeed and which ones fail, destroying free market system, increasing the power of the government, favoring international governments over our own governments, removing powers from the states, etc.

I'd say those are all pretty bad things.

[comic boy]

Yes, it was pretty progressive to be opposed to lynching.. not sure how you got the idea that being progressive was a bad thing, though.

Bigger government, reliance upon government, enslavement by the government, choosing of which businesses/groups succeed and which ones fail, destroying free market system, increasing the power of the government, favoring international governments over our own governments, removing powers from the states, etc.

I'd say those are all pretty bad things.

Exageration and blinkered thinking are also pretty bad things

[Night Strike]

Yes, it was pretty progressive to be opposed to lynching.. not sure how you got the idea that being progressive was a bad thing, though.

Bigger government, reliance upon government, enslavement by the government, choosing of which businesses/groups succeed and which ones fail, destroying free market system, increasing the power of the government, favoring international governments over our own governments, removing powers from the states, etc.

I'd say those are all pretty bad things.

Exageration and blinkered thinking are also pretty bad things

Where is the exaggeration?

Government spending has increased by almost $2 trillion since 2000.

17.9% (1st quarter 2010) of all personal income comes from the federal government.

We now have policies to provide for the "needs" of people from the day they're born to the day they die. People no longer have to actually work to earn money if they no longer want to.

US spent BILLIONS of dollars to "save" certain banks (at their discretion) as well as US automakers (even though they refused to help many dealers who actually sell those cars). The US should be bailing out exactly 0 businesses.

Massive regulations require businesses of all kinds and sizes to jump through a myriad of hoops just to start or run their business. Regulations have grown by the thousands simply because more administrators want to control more areas of commerce.

Many government officials and even some judges believe that US law needs to be interpreted NOT in light of the US Constitution, but by using international laws. They believe the US needs to be subservient to the UN instead of looking out for our best interests.

The states have lost almost ALL their sovereignty. They must either ask the federal government permission for the laws they have, or constantly live in fear that the federal government will swoop in and arbitrarily dismantle their laws. States no longer have the power to decide what's best for their citizens as our country must operate under a one-size-fits-all policy from the federal government.


Sorry, it's not exaggeration when it's reality.

[PLAYER57832]

Yes, it was pretty progressive to be opposed to lynching.. not sure how you got the idea that being progressive was a bad thing, though.

I see, so if we give bare facts about industry everything bad is an "exception", but you are allowed to throw out these innane, not even truly defined innanities and gross exaggerations as if they were simply "fact">

And you wonder why the right keeps getting labeled as "uneducated and unthinking?"
You do real, thinking conservatives a gross disservice. (disagree with their ideas, though I often do).

[Night Strike]

Yes, it was pretty progressive to be opposed to lynching.. not sure how you got the idea that being progressive was a bad thing, though.

I see, so if we give bare facts about industry everything bad is an "exception", but you are allowed to throw out these innane, not even truly defined innanities and gross exaggerations as if they were simply "fact">

And you wonder why the right keeps getting labeled as "uneducated and unthinking?"
You do real, thinking conservatives a gross disservice. (disagree with their ideas, though I often do).

Just because I believe big government is bad doesn't make me "uneducated and unthinking". It's telling how the only people who can be considered educated are those who believe in progressive ideals. So much for the freedom of speech and ideas.