What's the greatest tragedy in history?

radiojake · Post by **radiojake** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:02 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:Changing my top 5 a bit,
1. Communism
2. Holocaust
3. the French
4. complete idiots
5. people that think that Communism is possible and is better then Capitalism

Again, as I stated before, I'm not a communist but I also happen to think that capitalism is fucked. Also, I am fully aware that China is a communist state but that doesn't stop American (and all western) companies using cheap labour in Asian sweatshops because they can. Like i said, Capitalism just isn't oppressing you, but it is just as oppressive as communism --

"But hey, they're on the other side of the planet and I will never have to worry about it so why do I care???? LOLOMG IM GOING TO BUY MY NEW NIKES AND EAT MCDONALDS -- I LOVE FREEDOM"

muy_thaiguy · Post by **muy_thaiguy** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:45 pm

radiojake wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:Changing my top 5 a bit,
1. Communism
2. Holocaust
3. the French
4. complete idiots
5. people that think that Communism is possible and is better then Capitalism

Again, as I stated before, I'm not a communist but I also happen to think that capitalism is fucked. Also, I am fully aware that China is a communist state but that doesn't stop American (and all western) companies using cheap labour in Asian sweatshops because they can. Like i said, Capitalism just isn't oppressing you, but it is just as oppressive as communism --

"But hey, they're on the other side of the planet and I will never have to worry about it so why do I care???? LOLOMG IM GOING TO BUY MY NEW NIKES AND EAT MCDONALDS -- I LOVE FREEDOM"

Was I reffering to you? By the way, your little nike thing is a bit over the top, isn't it? After all, it is not the people in the US or such that are making little kids work in sweat shops, that would be the Chinese gov. So before you spout out such things, think it through.

Caleb the Cruel · Post by **Caleb the Cruel** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:59 pm

I barely found this thread since I've been gone for over a week.

The geatest tragedy...

I'd have to say the greatest tragedy would be Eve and Adam, falling into Satan's trap and eating the forbidden fruit(which may or may not be an apple) which sent this world into a downward spiral of sin. Without this tragedy, all other tragedies likely wouldn't have occurred. :wink:

radiojake · Post by **radiojake** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:06 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:
Was I reffering to you? By the way, your little nike thing is a bit over the top, isn't it? After all, it is not the people in the US or such that are making little kids work in sweat shops, that would be the Chinese gov. So before you spout out such things, think it through.

Ignorant -- Are you trying to say that nike and others have no say in the wages that are paid to the workers?? Go read No Logo by Naomi Klein, then tell me if you think the same about Capitilism

radiojake · Post by **radiojake** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:06 pm

Caleb the Cruel wrote:I barely found this thread since I've been gone for over a week.

The geatest tragedy...

I'd have to say the greatest tragedy would be Eve and Adam, falling into Satan's trap and eating the forbidden fruit(which may or may not be an apple) which sent this world into a downward spiral of sin. Without this tragedy, all other tragedies likely wouldn't have occurred.

It's also a tragedy that fully grown adults believe in fairy tales

Caleb the Cruel · Post by **Caleb the Cruel** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:16 pm

radiojake wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:I barely found this thread since I've been gone for over a week.

The geatest tragedy...

I'd have to say the greatest tragedy would be Eve and Adam, falling into Satan's trap and eating the forbidden fruit(which may or may not be an apple) which sent this world into a downward spiral of sin. Without this tragedy, all other tragedies likely wouldn't have occurred.

It's also a tragedy that fully grown adults believe in fairy tales

Excuse me for still believing in Saint Nicolas!

But it's also a tragedy that you have not accepted the grace, love, acceptance, protection, and truth of God.

radiojake · Post by **radiojake** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:21 pm

Caleb the Cruel wrote:
radiojake wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:I barely found this thread since I've been gone for over a week.

The geatest tragedy...

I'd have to say the greatest tragedy would be Eve and Adam, falling into Satan's trap and eating the forbidden fruit(which may or may not be an apple) which sent this world into a downward spiral of sin. Without this tragedy, all other tragedies likely wouldn't have occurred.

It's also a tragedy that fully grown adults believe in fairy tales

Excuse me for still believing in Saint Nicolas!

But it's also a tragedy that you have not accepted the grace, love, acceptance, protection, and truth of God.

I'm not going to get into this too much (that's why i've avoided the Christianity thread) -- but the garden of eden?? come on. I even have christian friends and stuff who don't even believe that part of it. Why do you feel the need to believe in some all powerful being watching over you (and everyone else) -- it's crap. Religion is the opiate of the masses, now closely followed by TV and popular culture

Caleb the Cruel · Post by **Caleb the Cruel** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:31 pm

radiojake wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:
radiojake wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:I barely found this thread since I've been gone for over a week.

The geatest tragedy...

I'd have to say the greatest tragedy would be Eve and Adam, falling into Satan's trap and eating the forbidden fruit(which may or may not be an apple) which sent this world into a downward spiral of sin. Without this tragedy, all other tragedies likely wouldn't have occurred.

It's also a tragedy that fully grown adults believe in fairy tales

Excuse me for still believing in Saint Nicolas!

But it's also a tragedy that you have not accepted the grace, love, acceptance, protection, and truth of God.

I'm not going to get into this too much (that's why i've avoided the Christianity thread) -- but the garden of eden?? come on. I even have christian friends and stuff who don't even believe that part of it. Why do you feel the need to believe in some all powerful being watching over you (and everyone else) -- it's crap. Religion is the opiate of the masses, now closely followed by TV and popular culture

Let me ask, what denomination are these friends of yours? Also, I believe in God for many many reasons, but one of the major cornerstones is that there must be a Creator. The Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution make absolutly no sense and are full of flaws, but Creationism all adds up.

Iliad · Post by **Iliad** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:53 pm

Caleb the Cruel wrote:
radiojake wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:
radiojake wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:I barely found this thread since I've been gone for over a week.

The geatest tragedy...

I'd have to say the greatest tragedy would be Eve and Adam, falling into Satan's trap and eating the forbidden fruit(which may or may not be an apple) which sent this world into a downward spiral of sin. Without this tragedy, all other tragedies likely wouldn't have occurred.

It's also a tragedy that fully grown adults believe in fairy tales

Excuse me for still believing in Saint Nicolas!

But it's also a tragedy that you have not accepted the grace, love, acceptance, protection, and truth of God.

I'm not going to get into this too much (that's why i've avoided the Christianity thread) -- but the garden of eden?? come on. I even have christian friends and stuff who don't even believe that part of it. Why do you feel the need to believe in some all powerful being watching over you (and everyone else) -- it's crap. Religion is the opiate of the masses, now closely followed by TV and popular culture

Let me ask, what denomination are these friends of yours? Also, I believe in God for many many reasons, but one of the major cornerstones is that there must be a Creator. The Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution make absolutly no sense and are full of flaws, but Creationism all adds up.

All adds up? You gotta be kidding me. Creationism has no proof or evidence. The Big bang and evolution theories have more proof than creationism will ever have.

Neutrino · Post by **Neutrino** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:56 pm

Caleb the Cruel wrote:Let me ask, what denomination are these friends of yours? Also, I believe in God for many many reasons, but one of the major cornerstones is that there must be a Creator. The Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution make absolutly no sense and are full of flaws, but Creationism all adds up.

How so? Evolution I can understand; quite a lot of it dosen't really mke sense, though, I think it is only truly understood by biologists and such and what the general public get's is just a watered down version.
The Big Bang, though, is fairly simple. I thought you had ost, or at least some, of your questions answered in the Agnostic thread.

Creationism only makes sense because it relys purely on belief; if you ignore actually proving anything, you can make anything make sense.

P.S. I'll respond to the rest when time permits and my computer stops trying to commit suicide.

Caleb the Cruel · Post by **Caleb the Cruel** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:02 am

Iliad wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:
radiojake wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:
radiojake wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:I barely found this thread since I've been gone for over a week.

The geatest tragedy...

I'd have to say the greatest tragedy would be Eve and Adam, falling into Satan's trap and eating the forbidden fruit(which may or may not be an apple) which sent this world into a downward spiral of sin. Without this tragedy, all other tragedies likely wouldn't have occurred.

It's also a tragedy that fully grown adults believe in fairy tales

Excuse me for still believing in Saint Nicolas!

But it's also a tragedy that you have not accepted the grace, love, acceptance, protection, and truth of God.

I'm not going to get into this too much (that's why i've avoided the Christianity thread) -- but the garden of eden?? come on. I even have christian friends and stuff who don't even believe that part of it. Why do you feel the need to believe in some all powerful being watching over you (and everyone else) -- it's crap. Religion is the opiate of the masses, now closely followed by TV and popular culture

Let me ask, what denomination are these friends of yours? Also, I believe in God for many many reasons, but one of the major cornerstones is that there must be a Creator. The Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution make absolutly no sense and are full of flaws, but Creationism all adds up.

All adds up? You gotta be kidding me. Creationism has no proof or evidence. The Big bang and evolution theories have more proof than creationism will ever have.

What is your proof??? How was the universe formed? How did life begin? The one simple answer is that there is a Creator that made the world and all life on earth. I'm amazed at the number of people who cannot grasp that one simple concept that explains so much.

Skittles! · Post by **Skittles!** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:45 am

Caleb the Cruel wrote:
Iliad wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:
radiojake wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:
radiojake wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:I barely found this thread since I've been gone for over a week.

The geatest tragedy...

I'd have to say the greatest tragedy would be Eve and Adam, falling into Satan's trap and eating the forbidden fruit(which may or may not be an apple) which sent this world into a downward spiral of sin. Without this tragedy, all other tragedies likely wouldn't have occurred.

It's also a tragedy that fully grown adults believe in fairy tales

Excuse me for still believing in Saint Nicolas!

But it's also a tragedy that you have not accepted the grace, love, acceptance, protection, and truth of God.

I'm not going to get into this too much (that's why i've avoided the Christianity thread) -- but the garden of eden?? come on. I even have christian friends and stuff who don't even believe that part of it. Why do you feel the need to believe in some all powerful being watching over you (and everyone else) -- it's crap. Religion is the opiate of the masses, now closely followed by TV and popular culture

Let me ask, what denomination are these friends of yours? Also, I believe in God for many many reasons, but one of the major cornerstones is that there must be a Creator. The Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution make absolutly no sense and are full of flaws, but Creationism all adds up.

All adds up? You gotta be kidding me. Creationism has no proof or evidence. The Big bang and evolution theories have more proof than creationism will ever have.

What is your proof??? How was the universe formed? How did life begin? The one simple answer is that there is a Creator that made the world and all life on earth. I'm amazed at the number of people who cannot grasp that one simple concept that explains so much.

It's simple, yes, but then, who created the Creator?

freezie · Post by **freezie** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:24 am

Every tragedy is the greatest.

Neutrino · Post by **Neutrino** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:36 am

muy_thaiguy wrote:
Neutrino wrote:
Actually, much like the Soviet Union, it is Capitalism-on-steroids/dictatorship.
You get a super-wealthy, super-elite upper class and a super-poor working class. This is what Capitalism with eventually do, but, as you can see, both China and the USSR's Dictatorship/Communism beat you too it.
Changing my top 5 a bit,
1. Communism
2. Holocaust
3. the French
4. complete idiots
5. people that think that Communism is possible and is better then Capitalism

Did you actually read what I wrote, or are you just working on the assumption that it is about Communism and I am disagreeing with you so therefore I must both support Communism and think that it is an achievable, stable government in it's current form? :roll:

If you had read and/or understood the post, then you would notice that I am, in fact, calling Communism Capitalism-on-steroids, and, therfore, bad. Please, explain for my feeble non-Capitalist mind exactly how that entails me supporting and/or considering feasable a plain Communist system of government?

As it is, I do, in fact, lean slightly towards to Communist side of the spectrum, but, in my opinion anyway, I have always been reasonably vocal in my opposition to a pure, (though actually not very pure) China/USSR version of Communism. That system of government, although called Communism was, in reality, just a (super) Capitalist Dictatorship. It may have called itself whatever it wanted, but there is no denying what it actually was.

If you want to have another Capitalism v Other (superior) Options thread, then fine, (I don't really have anything better to do, anyway) but, please, if you are going to misquote, at least do it in a mildly subtle way (such as not quoting the text it was misquoted from for easy correction :lol:

)

Skittles! · Post by **Skittles!** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:58 am

Caleb, just wondering what your avatar means. Are you saying you're Chosen? Chosen for what? Annoying the f*ck out of people?

Neutrino · Post by **Neutrino** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:05 am

Caleb the Cruel wrote:What is your proof??? How was the universe formed? How did life begin? The one simple answer is that there is a Creator that made the world and all life on earth. I'm amazed at the number of people who cannot grasp that one simple concept that explains so much.

The key difference between a scientific and a faith-based explanation (as has probably been said several hundred thousand times, but I'm going to say it again, because it's a good point) is the scientific method is always seeking an answer that fits all the evidence, even when the evidence changes and so the theory must too, while the faith-based one simply squats on a chosen answer, no matter how badly the evidence contradicts it.

The scientific method with eventually lead to something approaching the truth, while the faith one with lead nowhere (Unless, of course, god chooses to deliver the answers on a silver platter).

Consider the implacations if the world (or at least the more powerful parts of it) became Fundamentalist (Insert Major Religion Here). Any sort of efforts to undestand the universe would immediatly cease (because they might contradict "The word of god". If god created the universe, how can he contradict himself, dammit!?). Humanity would hapily sit around campfires and sing songs, until the meteor hit, or we ran out of usable resource or any a myriad of other catastrophies that can affect a planet-bound species occurs.
What a triumph for religion it will be then :lol:

Anyway, this is not a Christian bashing thread, so, if you do want to be bashed, take it to the appropriate thread.

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:55 am

Hey, idiot, the theory of evolution IS NOT A THEORY ON THE ORIGIN OF LIFE!

It is a theory on the progression of life from simple to complex forms.

The Big Bang theory is one of dozens of theories about the origin of the universe, supported by a theory of universal expansion which is observable by watching the Doppler effect as stars move apart from each other.

God, as it was for more ancient religions, is a placeholder explanation for phenomena that were, at one time, unexplainable. Thunder was blamed on a God throwing a hammer at giants. Lightning was thought to be a weapon wielded by another God. In fact, early Christian catechism taught that the sun revolved around the Earth because it was God's primary creation and the Sun was a lesser creation.

Perhaps you should accept that religion is not science, and shouldn't be confused with it. Faith and science can coexist, but obviously Religion has a hard time of this.

If God does have a plan, then Adam and Eve eating of the tree must have been part of the plan. Also, Satan/the snake convincing Eve to eat of the tree must also have been part of the plan. Even Satan's rebellion against God must then also be part of the plan. So let me ask you this, How can any being created by God defy His plan?

luns101 · Post by **luns101** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:02 am

Neutrino wrote:As it is, I do, in fact, lean slightly towards to Communist side of the spectrum, but, in my opinion anyway, I have always been reasonably vocal in my opposition to a pure, (though actually not very pure) China/USSR version of Communism. That system of government, although called Communism was, in reality, just a (super) Capitalist Dictatorship. It may have called itself whatever it wanted, but there is no denying what it actually was.

How did you arrive at your current beliefs?

Caleb the Cruel · Post by **Caleb the Cruel** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:14 pm

Skittles! wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:
Iliad wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:
radiojake wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:
radiojake wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:I barely found this thread since I've been gone for over a week.

The geatest tragedy...

I'd have to say the greatest tragedy would be Eve and Adam, falling into Satan's trap and eating the forbidden fruit(which may or may not be an apple) which sent this world into a downward spiral of sin. Without this tragedy, all other tragedies likely wouldn't have occurred.

It's also a tragedy that fully grown adults believe in fairy tales

Excuse me for still believing in Saint Nicolas!

But it's also a tragedy that you have not accepted the grace, love, acceptance, protection, and truth of God.

I'm not going to get into this too much (that's why i've avoided the Christianity thread) -- but the garden of eden?? come on. I even have christian friends and stuff who don't even believe that part of it. Why do you feel the need to believe in some all powerful being watching over you (and everyone else) -- it's crap. Religion is the opiate of the masses, now closely followed by TV and popular culture

Let me ask, what denomination are these friends of yours? Also, I believe in God for many many reasons, but one of the major cornerstones is that there must be a Creator. The Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution make absolutly no sense and are full of flaws, but Creationism all adds up.

All adds up? You gotta be kidding me. Creationism has no proof or evidence. The Big bang and evolution theories have more proof than creationism will ever have.

What is your proof??? How was the universe formed? How did life begin? The one simple answer is that there is a Creator that made the world and all life on earth. I'm amazed at the number of people who cannot grasp that one simple concept that explains so much.

It's simple, yes, but then, who created the Creator?

Who created the junk that set off the Big Bang?

Skittles! wrote:Caleb, just wondering what your avatar means. Are you saying you're Chosen? Chosen for what? Annoying the f*ck out of people?

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

I went to a large Lutheran event in Florida for several days that talked about how we are CHOSEN: CHOSEN by God, CHOSEN with Others, and CHSOEN to the World.

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:12 pm

Caleb the Cruel wrote:Who created the junk that set off the Big Bang?

We don't know yet, that's why it's a theory.

Skittles! wrote:Caleb, just wondering what your avatar means. Are you saying you're Chosen? Chosen for what? Annoying the f*ck out of people?

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

I went to a large Lutheran event in Florida for several days that talked about how we are CHOSEN: CHOSEN by God, CHOSEN with Others, and CHSOEN to the World.

So who's Chosen, is it those who are Christian or only Lutherans?

luns101 · Post by **luns101** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:35 pm

Iliad wrote:The Big bang and evolution theories have more proof than creationism will ever have.

Kaboom! Yeah, that's proof. Nobody can prove the cause of the beginning of the universe because no one was around to observe it.

luns101 · Post by **luns101** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:42 pm

Skittles! wrote:It's simple, yes, but then, who created the Creator?

That question assumes that time has always existed. A God who exists outside the time constraints of the universe is not subject to cause and effect.

vtmarik · Post by **vtmarik** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:44 pm

luns101 wrote:
Iliad wrote:The Big bang and evolution theories have more proof than creationism will ever have.

Kaboom! Yeah, that's proof. Nobody can prove the cause of the beginning of the universe because no one was around to observe it.

Exactly. It might've been a God, it might've been an exploding singularity. Just because one is assumed to be an intelligent deity doesn't mean that it's any more valid as an explanation.

That question assumes that time has always existed. A God who exists outside the time constraints of the universe is not subject to cause and effect.

Well, considering that Time is a distance variable, it is healthy to say that has always existed. After all, time can be both negative and positive.

Example, there is no Year Zero, and there is no relative number scale where we can say x amount of years before and x amount of years after zero.

Besides, the measurement of time is arbitrary at best.

muy_thaiguy · Post by **muy_thaiguy** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:56 pm

vtmarik wrote:
Caleb the Cruel wrote:Who created the junk that set off the Big Bang?

We don't know yet, that's why it's a theory.

Skittles! wrote:Caleb, just wondering what your avatar means. Are you saying you're Chosen? Chosen for what? Annoying the f*ck out of people?

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

I went to a large Lutheran event in Florida for several days that talked about how we are CHOSEN: CHOSEN by God, CHOSEN with Others, and CHSOEN to the World.

So who's Chosen, is it those who are Christian or only Lutherans?

Your going to get a different answer depending on the denomination. I say Roman Catholic, because I am Roman Catholic, but that's Catholics.

luns101 · Post by **luns101** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:59 pm

vtmarik wrote:Exactly. It might've been a God, it might've been an exploding singularity. Just because one is assumed to be an intelligent deity doesn't mean that it's any more valid as an explanation.

Sounds like you and I would agree on this one. I was really addressing Iliad's point...

Iliad wrote:The Big bang and evolution theories have more proof than creationism will ever have.

Neither theory can have more proof than the other. In reality, he should just be saying "I choose to believe the Big Bang theory instead of the creationist theory".

vtmarik wrote:Well, considering that Time is a distance variable, it is healthy to say that has always existed. After all, time can be both negative and positive.

Example, there is no Year Zero, and there is no relative number scale where we can say x amount of years before and x amount of years after zero.

Besides, the measurement of time is arbitrary at best.

Although defining time presents difficulties, measuring it does not; it is the most accurately measured physical quantity. I guess we'll just have to disagree about it.