Poll on Christmas Bomber

[Neoteny]

You know, interrogations do occasionally gain information without becoming torture. Following the law is not inconsistent with talking to terrorism suspects, and, given that suspects we (Americans) capture are generally most scared about things we might do to them (like turn them over to Egypt) they are possibly even more likely to talk than ordinary criminals.

I was under the impression that Abdulmutallab talked openly with federal officials. Was I misled?

We're basing his link to al-Qaeda, at least at the beginning of the investigation, purely based on what he offered up, if my information is correct. I don't think he's particularly shy.

[Phatscotty]

A conspiracy theory emerges...

US: Author and journalist Webster Tarpley raises serious issues about the failed attack on a US passenger jet traveling from Amsterdam to Detroit. Was it a set-up provocation controlled by the CIA?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQY6brH5OPE

[Phatscotty]

Here are a couple of 9-11 victim's responses to the Christmas bomber

KING: Nobody can speak more about terrorism than victims of it. Joining us now, David Beamer, his son Todd Beamer died on United flight 93 on September 11th. Todd was among those passengers who fought back against the hijackers before the plane crashed in Pennsylvania. Also Debra Burlingame, she's the sister of Charles Burlinghame III. He was the pilot of American Airlines flight 77 which crashed into the Pentagon. She is also the co-founder of 9/11 Families for a Strong and Safe America. And Alice Hoglan, her son Mark Bingham also died on United flight 93. Alice as well is a former flight attendant.

What is your reaction, David, to what happened Christmas day?

DAVID BEAMER, SON DIED IN 9/11 ATTACK: Well, Larry, it was a terrible event and I'm certainly pleased that the mission was not successful. I'm very thankful for the fellow that was referred to as the flying Dutchman for leaping to action and preventing that plane from being blown up.

So I'm very pleased with the outcome and of course disheartened about the fact that it happened at all. And it clearly points out from the enemy's point of view, they believe that there is a war going on and for them, it's an absolute passion and an absolutely priority. And I'm not convinced that for us, that the war is really -- has either of those. For us, it seemed to be more of one of the agenda items but not one that we are pursuing with real passion and an absolute priority. I'm concerned about that.

KING: Debra, do you agree with that, Debra?

DEBRA BURLINGAME, BROTHER DIED IN 9/11 ATTACK: I completely agree. I think that in some ways, this young man from Nigeria may have done us a favor because he pointed out that we have a policy of denial now about who this enemy is. The fact that this man would try to blow out the side of an airport and that the response of this government would be to put him into criminal custody, that man should have been taken after he was stabilized medically and interrogated for every bit of intelligence we could get from him.

The Yemeni government is saying they are cooperating, but the fact of the matter is, this is the new center of gravity in Yemen and we need to know who is behind this, who helped him. All of the information that would have come out is now lost to us because he is lawyered up and we will now have to put him through the criminal system where we are negotiating with the terrorists to get this information.

KING: Alice, the same thing occurred though in the Bush administration with the shoe bomber.

ALICE HOGLAN, SON DIED IN 9/11 ATTACK: Yes, in his own perverse way, this fellow Abdulmutallab has done us a favor. He has given the American people a gift. We are now focused on two important issues that we have somehow lost track off. Those are deficiencies in aviation security and the proper courts for trying terrorists.

KING: David, do you ever forget that day?

BEAMER: Never forget it, Larry and I'm reminded of it always, every time I see our grandchildren, clearly reminds what we're all missing. And I think the gift, if you will, that has happened during this Christmas season has really also been a gift to our enemies. In that here, they had a plan. And even though, even though we had intelligence, we had the terrorist's father trying to warn us, and the fact that we still couldn't prevent him from getting on the airplane, I think they must be saying, wow, this is easier than we thought. I think they're encouraged by it.

[MeDeFe]

Here are a few of the 9-11 victims opinions on dealing with terrorism

Is there anything special about those opinions? Because to me they look like more of the same police state bullshit that some people have been spewing in this thread.


Being affected by something makes you interesting for the media, it may also make it possible for you to provide insights for those not affected. It certainly does not qualify you to declare human and civil rights null and void.

[Phatscotty]

Here are a few of the 9-11 victims opinions on dealing with terrorism

Is there anything special about those opinions? Because to me they look like more of the same police state bullshit that some people have been spewing in this thread.


Being affected by something makes you interesting for the media, it may also make it possible for you to provide insights for those not affected. It certainly does not qualify you to declare human and civil rights null and void.

where the f*ck did I ever say anything like that? you are all twisted up.

[Titanic]

yup. yup. I made this thread, and the poll points toward it, I'm with ya, but how do we get the information we need to protect everyone else's right to life?

Get the CIA and FBI to actually do their job effectively, for a change...that would be a nice start.

but even if they did it effectively, how do we get the info to save lives

I'm pretty sure I answered that...by the CIA and FBI doing their job effectively. Boots on the ground...infiltration...buying off people. It's what they're supposed to do.

Add cooperation with other agencies to that list. The lessons of 9/11 really have not been learnt. Their dismal failings led to that attack.

[MeDeFe]

Here are a few of the 9-11 victims opinions on dealing with terrorism

Is there anything special about those opinions? Because to me they look like more of the same police state bullshit that some people have been spewing in this thread.


Being affected by something makes you interesting for the media, it may also make it possible for you to provide insights for those not affected. It certainly does not qualify you to declare human and civil rights null and void.

where the f*ck did I ever say anything like that? you are all twisted up.

You came up with something like it in the poll when you provided

IV'd with truth syrum drugs (get information on who, what, where, when, and how)

as an alternative to

Given a lawyer (the right to remain silent, the right to sue the criminal that assaulted him on the airplane)

Picking the former over the latter is police state bullshit and disregarding human and civil rights. I have no doubt that you did so.

Then there was this:

This man is not an American citizen. He still gets rights though? I think he should have an open and shut military tribunal and put to death. It is an act of war, and he was caught red-handed. He is linked to al-qada. We have permission to put a bullet in the head of anyone who tries to ignite a bomb. That doesnt end just cuz the guys didnt ignite it right.

Where you got so many things wrong it's not even funny any more.

Yes, he still gets rights.
No, he can't go in front of a military tribunal because it was not an act of war.
He was caught red-handed. You got that one thing right.
He is allegedly linked to Al-Qaeda
Yes, the right to shoot someone in the head does end the moment they are no longer a threat.

Claiming, as you did, that being a criminal of the terrorist persuasion and on top of that not an American citizen (quelle horreur!) somehow makes all one's rights go away is police state bullshit.

[Phatscotty]

Here are a few of the 9-11 victims opinions on dealing with terrorism

Is there anything special about those opinions? Because to me they look like more of the same police state bullshit that some people have been spewing in this thread.


Being affected by something makes you interesting for the media, it may also make it possible for you to provide insights for those not affected. It certainly does not qualify you to declare human and civil rights null and void.

where the f*ck did I ever say anything like that? you are all twisted up.

You came up with something like it in the poll when you provided

IV'd with truth syrum drugs (get information on who, what, where, when, and how)

as an alternative to

Given a lawyer (the right to remain silent, the right to sue the criminal that assaulted him on the airplane)

Picking the former over the latter is police state bullshit and disregarding human and civil rights. I have no doubt that you did so.

Then there was this:

This man is not an American citizen. He still gets rights though? I think he should have an open and shut military tribunal and put to death. It is an act of war, and he was caught red-handed. He is linked to al-qada. We have permission to put a bullet in the head of anyone who tries to ignite a bomb. That doesnt end just cuz the guys didnt ignite it right.

Where you got so many things wrong it's not even funny any more.

Yes, he still gets rights.
No, he can't go in front of a military tribunal because it was not an act of war.
He was caught red-handed. You got that one thing right.
He is allegedly linked to Al-Qaeda
Yes, the right to shoot someone in the head does end the moment they are no longer a threat.

Claiming, as you did, that being a criminal of the terrorist persuasion and on top of that not an American citizen (quelle horreur!) somehow makes all one's rights go away is police state bullshit.

I presented 2 extremes. try reading the 3rd option. I created it JUST FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU. I've made a few polls now, and I know you think every single one of them is stupid, but I found out if you don't set some parameters, present some givens, without having to repeat your position 3 different time 3 different ways.....the poll get nit-picked on "what abouts" and "yeah buts"

[thegreekdog]

The first one is the right answer.

Unless of course you want the US government to start hauling you off to prison and then torturing you because you have, I don't know, a gun in your house.

[Snorri1234]

I presented 2 extremes. try reading the 3rd option. I created it JUST FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU.

Yeah but the problem is that one extreme is far preferable to the other. It's like giving people the choice between "Gay marriage is ok", "ALL GAYS SHOULD BE SHOT" and "I'm not picking either choice".


The terrorist should obviously be given a fair trial. And interogated about things, but not given truth-serum bullshit because that shit doesn't even work. He will be convicted anyway, ignoring the rules now would be silly. I mean, I can understand wanting to go vigilante on someone who escapes justice, but on someone who won't???

[pimpdave]

Sodium Pentothal indeed does work. Just not on everyone.

It's like the polygraph that way.

[radiojake]

The first one is the right answer.

Unless of course you want the US government to start hauling you off to prison and then torturing you because you have, I don't know, a gun in your house.

- What greekdog says above, is the only acceptable answer in a situation like this - The word 'terrorist' has been thrown around a lot lately, and it won't be long before other groups or organisations that governments have a problem with get labeled 'terrorists' - (Infact, a few of my friends who have been arrested for tree-sitting in the Tasmanian Forest have been labelled 'Eco-Terrorists' - but that's another issue)

If this guy is as guilty as he looks, then the trial should be open and shut - You paranoid retards are always the first to cry foul when it looks like any of your rights or liberties look like being infringed upon, but yet are hell bent on making sure this guy gets none - When will it stop? If you start making exceptions, then the exceptions start becoming norm.

[Snorri1234]

Sodium Pentothal indeed does work. Just not on everyone.

It's like the polygraph that way.

I mean work in a way that we could rely on it. It's not really worth the effort, particularly because we have more reliable ways of finding out things.


"Good cop, bad cop" works too! Sometimes. That doesn't mean it's a reliable way of finding out things, and it's certainly not when good cop bad cop had side-effects.

[Phatscotty]

This was an act of war. He should be held as a prisoner of war. He should be in a military Brig.

Senator Lieberman

[Snorri1234]

This was an act of war. He should be held as a prisoner of war. He should be in a military Brig.

Senator Lieberman

LET"S ALL LISTEN TO SENATOR JOE LIEBERMAN!



Wait...let's not.

[Neoteny]

Why anyone listens to Liebermann anymore is beyond me.

[MeDeFe]

I presented 2 extremes. try reading the 3rd option. I created it JUST FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU. I've made a few polls now, and I know you think every single one of them is stupid, but I found out if you don't set some parameters, present some givens, without having to repeat your position 3 different time 3 different ways.....the poll get nit-picked on "what abouts" and "yeah buts"

The thing is that the first option isn't an extreme but sensible when considered from nearly every political or ethical theory as well as for pragmatic reasons.

[pimpdave]

Why anyone listens to Liebermann anymore is beyond me.

The esteemed Senator is from Connecticut which is the state home to the largest concentration of the insurance industry in the USA, to answer your question. It also regularly switches off with New Jersey every other year or so for the richest state in the union, if that provides more context.

[72o]

Can you add "drawn and quartered" to your poll? I wish they still did that.

And all of this crap about "that would make the terrorists right about us" is stupid. They beat you in public with an 8 foot long, 1/2 inch thick bamboo cane in Singapore for misdemeanors. Singapore doesn't have a terrorism problem.

This guy almost killed hundreds of U.S. citizens, and some of you idiots are saying, "Well, he didn't succeed, so we should give him a trial. If he had succeeded, well then he'd be dead, and we wouldn't have a suspect. Lucky for us he didn't, so he should be given the same rights as a U.S. citizen, although he's not one and almost killed hundreds of them."

Our rights are constitutionally protected, and fought for with the lives of our citizens and the dollars of our taxpayers. And you want to share those rights with pieces of shit like this?

If I had been on that plane, I would be in jail now, because I would have killed that son of a bitch right then and there. I would have beaten him until his fucking face was a puddle. I bet you'd want me jailed for life for saving your worthless lives.

[Neoteny]

Can you add "drawn and quartered" to your poll? I wish they still did that.

And all of this crap about "that would make the terrorists right about us" is stupid. They beat you in public with an 8 foot long, 1/2 inch thick bamboo cane in Singapore for misdemeanors. Singapore doesn't have a terrorism problem.

This guy almost killed hundreds of U.S. citizens, and some of you idiots are saying, "Well, he didn't succeed, so we should give him a trial. If he had succeeded, well then he'd be dead, and we wouldn't have a suspect. Lucky for us he didn't, so he should be given the same rights as a U.S. citizen, although he's not one and almost killed hundreds of them."

Our rights are constitutionally protected, and fought for with the lives of our citizens and the dollars of our taxpayers. And you want to share those rights with pieces of shit like this?

If I had been on that plane, I would be in jail now, because I would have killed that son of a bitch right then and there. I would have beaten him until his fucking face was a puddle. I bet you'd want me jailed for life for saving your worthless lives.

You are pathetic.

[pimpdave]

This guy almost killed hundreds of U.S. citizens, and some of you idiots are saying, "Well, he didn't succeed, so we should give him a trial. If he had succeeded, well then he'd be dead, and we wouldn't have a suspect. Lucky for us he didn't, so he should be given the same rights as a U.S. citizen, although he's not one and almost killed hundreds of them."

You mean like how Ramzi Yousef (of Kuwait), Mahmud Abouhalima (of Egypt), Mohammed A. Salameh (of the West Bank) were denied fair trials because they're not US citizens. Oh whoops, no they weren't, and they're currently living out the rest of their days in a Supermax prison. Also, they actually killed six people and wounded over a thousand.

Our rights are constitutionally protected, and fought for with the lives of our citizens and the dollars of our taxpayers. And you want to share those rights with pieces of shit like this?

Not really, but it is important we don't lose them for ourselves, so, in that light, we must extend them to those we don't want to.

If I had been on that plane, I would be in jail now, because I would have killed that son of a bitch right then and there. I would have beaten him until his fucking face was a puddle. I bet you'd want me jailed for life for saving your worthless lives.

Doubtful. I also seriously doubt you've ever been in the middle of any kind of traumatic situation even remotely similar to that attempted bombing, given how cavalier you're being right now. Furthermore, I'm confident you've never received any training whatsoever for handling a traumatic situation like that.



I understand and empathize with your emotion but not in any way your reason.

[72o]

I don't agree with giving any of these worthless bastards a trial. Bury them under the jail.

I don't see how denying them the rights of citizens would cause us to lose them. Maybe that logic is why we give social security and welfare to illegal immigrants. Wouldn't want to risk it, now, would we?

I have never been involved in an attempted bombing. That is true.

I have successfully restrained a burglar who broke into my house. He had a broken nose, a ruptured eardrum, and needed minor facial reconstructive surgery from the damage my driveway did to him while we were waiting for the police to get there.

I would have absolutely no reservations stepping up in any situation where the health and well-being of me and my family is being threatened. Likewise, I have no compassion for someone who threatens it.

[Phatscotty]

The first one is the right answer.

Unless of course you want the US government to start hauling you off to prison and then torturing you because you have, I don't know, a gun in your house.

I think everyone who voted agrees with that statement. The main problem is that a lot of people don't believe this is a case for the criminal courts. We have a good legal process for dealing with terrorists and enemy combatants, and we should use it.

[Phatscotty]

What's next? Someone Invades my country, and I have to respect his newly gained rights? How far are you guys willing to take this?

In other words, at which point between an Idealogical Army of terrorists, and an offical army with a gov't declaration of war, are all bets off?

Do most of you acknowledge there is such a time as "all bets are off"?

[Frigidus]

What's next? Someone Invades my country, and I have to respect his newly gained rights?

Yes, you do. You can't do whatever the hell you want with enemy combatants, or illegal combatants, or non-citizens, or whatever other term might be used. They are all human beings and have inherent rights.