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Why was socialism invented?

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Why was socialism invented?

 
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Postby Norse on Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:30 pm

Ha!

I've seen that stoooopid "capitalism pyramid" in loads of places, and it is a mockery of the truth.

The facts of the matter, is that white, working, middle class men are the slaves at the bottom, while limp-wristed, metero-sexual tsars of faggottry are the flustered, squeaky, bleating rulers....the white working man holding up the rest of the otherwise inefficient, lemon-tea-drinking, "never turned a penny in their life" islington brigade..

You lot owe me, big time.

Nevertheless...I have other plans for you.
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Postby got tonkaed on Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:54 pm

Norse wrote:Ha!

I've seen that stoooopid "capitalism pyramid" in loads of places, and it is a mockery of the truth.

The facts of the matter, is that white, working, middle class men are the slaves at the bottom, while limp-wristed, metero-sexual tsars of faggottry are the flustered, squeaky, bleating rulers....the white working man holding up the rest of the otherwise inefficient, lemon-tea-drinking, "never turned a penny in their life" islington brigade..

You lot owe me, big time.

Nevertheless...I have other plans for you
.


as well all know this is by and large...i believe the word is bollocks.

Seriously, since hte rise of industrial capitalism you really think the middle class is the net loser? I mean, i dont think you can possible cook up a reasonable argument that could say that.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:02 pm

Socialism is a nonsensical, fundamentally evil system contrary to human nature, which simply was an infantile response to a flawed capitalo-feusalist system in the 19th (20th for Russia), nothing but a risible product of its time with populistic appeal. And yes, Socialism is a variant of communism, which today is watered down but still dangerous.
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Postby got tonkaed on Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:05 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:Socialism is a nonsensical, fundamentally evil system contrary to human nature, which simply was an infantile response to a flawed capitalo-feusalist system in the 19th (20th for Russia), nothing but a risible product of its time with populistic appeal. And yes, Socialism is a variant of communism, which today is watered down but still dangerous.


i agree, people cooperating together has never occured in history on the societal level, and any notion that people working together could be a part of perhaps a complex notion of human nature, instead of a simplistic view of black and white, is frankly dangerous. Such notions need to be erased from conciouness, so that we can better use a system that on a fundamental level, does not concern itself with public good.
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Postby btownmeggy on Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:01 pm

sangfroid wrote:
btownmeggy wrote:Kinda... flawed, huh?


What's flawed?


Probably it's greatest flaw is the lack of Anarchism, which coincided strongly with Menscheviks, and many Menscheviks were for a time Leninists. And TROTSKY, OF COURSE, was a Leninist AND a Bolshevik. AND... lots of other things.
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Postby btownmeggy on Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:02 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:Socialism is a nonsensical, fundamentally evil system contrary to human nature, which simply was an infantile response to a flawed capitalo-feusalist system in the 19th (20th for Russia), nothing but a risible product of its time with populistic appeal. And yes, Socialism is a variant of communism, which today is watered down but still dangerous.


Oh?
Last edited by btownmeggy on Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby jiminski on Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:10 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:Socialism is a nonsensical, fundamentally evil system contrary to human nature, which simply was an infantile response to a flawed capitalo-feusalist system in the 19th (20th for Russia), nothing but a risible product of its time with populistic appeal. And yes, Socialism is a variant of communism, which today is watered down but still dangerous.


Almost every aspect of that statement is as flawed Nap... hehe but i bet you felt bloody good after you wrote it! ;)
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:19 pm

btownmeggy wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:Socialism is a nonsensical, fundamentally evil system contrary to human nature, which simply was an infantile response to a flawed capitalo-feusalist system in the 19th (20th for Russia), nothing but a risible product of its time with populistic appeal. And yes, Socialism is a variant of communism, which today is watered down but still dangerous.


Oh, socialism was invented in Russia?


Not originally, but the Russians managed to re-invent it yes.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:19 pm

jiminski wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:Socialism is a nonsensical, fundamentally evil system contrary to human nature, which simply was an infantile response to a flawed capitalo-feusalist system in the 19th (20th for Russia), nothing but a risible product of its time with populistic appeal. And yes, Socialism is a variant of communism, which today is watered down but still dangerous.


Almost every aspect of that statement is as flawed Nap... hehe but i bet you felt bloody good after you wrote it! ;)


care to expound?
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Re: Why was socialism invented?

Postby Dancing Mustard on Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:20 pm

Norse wrote:Question.

Tell me how your angels get down like that? Charlie how your angels get down like that?
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Postby CoffeeCream on Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:22 pm

got tonkaed wrote:I mean seriously though norse, even though you obviously arent a huge fan of this whole idea that you could make a better society by empowering people....you dont think there maybe are some flaws with a free market concept on a purely philosophical level.

Most systems tend to break down under enough scrutiny on some level.


While you were addressing norse, I would just like to give my opinion on this. First of all - yes. Any system has it's faults and after enough scrutiny it has some flaws.

My own problem with socialism is that it divides people into groups and then pits them against each other. Usually this is done by claiming one group is a victim of something terrible - racism, bigotry, chauvinism, etc. The government will claim that they are the only ones that can protect these victims and then march in with their solutions. Usually these solutions involve higher taxation. Even when the government does manage to construct a temporary solution, the long-term consequence is even worse. An example of this would be our social security system. It was only meant to provide partial help for the aging and has now been redefined as an entitlement.

Coming soon - universal health care whether you want it or not. The uninsured are going to be viewed as victims that need to be protected. Just wait until that day happens. The government will start demanding you eat healthier foods and exercise more in order for them to cut costs. Yeah, we pay a lot of health care in this country, but we also are living longer as a result.

My point is that government can not meet the expectations of whatever "service" they say they will provide to the masses, no matter how well intentioned.
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Postby btownmeggy on Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:26 pm

CoffeeCream wrote:Coming soon - universal health care whether you want it or not.


I want it! I want it!

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36481
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Postby CoffeeCream on Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:29 pm

btownmeggy wrote:
CoffeeCream wrote:Coming soon - universal health care whether you want it or not.


I want it! I want it!

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36481


Alright fair enough. But why should I be forced to have it? Even if you don't agree with me that paying for it out of your own pocket or paying for your own private insurance is a good thing, isn't that my right to take care of my health my own way?
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Postby got tonkaed on Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:32 pm

My own problem with socialism is that it divides people into groups and then pits them against each other. Usually this is done by claiming one group is a victim of something terrible - racism, bigotry, chauvinism, etc. The government will claim that they are the only ones that can protect these victims and then march in with their solutions. Usually these solutions involve higher taxation. Even when the government does manage to construct a temporary solution, the long-term consequence is even worse. An example of this would be our social security system. It was only meant to provide partial help for the aging and has now been redefined as an entitlement.


Well i suppose i would first counter that every system pits people against one another. Certainly to use a contemporary example, people have very strong feelings against immigration for an economic reason, that essentially pits them against someone else, be it rational or not. Likewise, i think if we are honest, we can fairly say, our society does not serve everyone equally. Even with the best of intentions, there are certain advantages that being born into some portions of society have. Admittedly yes, solutions often are going to come or at least be involved with higher taxation. Albeit a different issue, but i think theres some simplistic sense behind the idea, that if you do want social change, someone is going to have to pay for it. Although i may agree to an extent on the nature of social security, i think the fact that it was there in many ways was part of an assurance that led to some very productive generations in the US. Social programs are difficult to analyze because they do tend to hit so many different groups different ways. Does this mean we should forego them, i should think not.

Coming soon - universal health care whether you want it or not. The uninsured are going to be viewed as victims that need to be protected. Just wait until that day happens. The government will start demanding you eat healthier foods and exercise more in order for them to cut costs. Yeah, we pay a lot of health care in this country, but we also are living longer as a result.


Ill admit there are certainly some areas of concern with the proposed healthcare plans that we have as of right now. But to be honest, we must admit there is an area that needs to be fixed. Tens of millions of people in our country right now simply do not have access to healthcare. In a society as wealthy as ours, that should be unacceptable. In so many ways economic success over the long term is dependent on things like education and health....which are things that we can help to improve. The fact that we dont do such things, and then are surprised when people struggle to move up the ladder so to speak, is rather distressing. Although yes, we still need to find the solution that will allow the best healthcare possible, i struggle to understand why we feel the free market will come up with these solutions, when clearly thus far it has not.

My point is that government can not meet the expectations of whatever "service" they say they will provide to the masses, no matter how well intentioned.


This may very well be true. However, i think much of recent history teases out the notion that the free market, left to primarily its own devices, does not accomplish these things on their own either. If we choose not to do these things i suppose that is one thing, but if we are trying to promote change for the social embetterment of our population, it might be fair to suggest changes have to in some part come from government mediation. They frequently have throughout history, even if they havent always been of optimal effciency or lowest cost.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:50 pm

I wouldn't quite say I'm a purist Libertarian, but I certainly share a lot of their philosophy. I am not a market anarchist, however, I believe in minimal govt. inervention, unless it be to protect National interest against foreign competition. Health Care however is a classic example of where people have failed to see the solution of KEYHOLE ECONOMICS (cf. the work of HARFORD).

The problems are that

a. Due to its expensive nature taxes must be raised to fund the insurance of the less affluent.
b. This entrains a raise of taxes, a negative force on the economy
c. Automatically problems arise as people have no motive to not behave like hypochondriacs
d. (and this vital) Politicians have only gone to extremes, no health care and universal
Solution-Keyhole Surgery (npi), minimize interference to the specific problem
1. Raise a small tax for emergencies
2. Allow people system by which they can put away a percentage of their paycheck into a high interest account which can build up cumulatively, and serve as their own health insurance

That way, people are able to decide what they need or their health selectively, using their own cash, not squandering other peoples, whilst emergencies are covered.
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Postby got tonkaed on Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:55 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:
The problems are that

a. Due to its expensive nature taxes must be raised to fund the insurance of the less affluent.
b. This entrains a raise of taxes, a negative force on the economy
c. Automatically problems arise as people have no motive to not behave like hypochondriacs
d. (and this vital) Politicians have only gone to extremes, no health care and universal
Solution-Keyhole Surgery (npi), minimize interference to the specific problem
1. Raise a small tax for emergencies
2. Allow people system by which they can put away a percentage of their paycheck into a high interest account which can build up cumulatively, and serve as their own health insurance

That way, people are able to decide what they need or their health selectively, using their own cash, not squandering other peoples, whilst emergencies are covered.


a) this is likely necessary yes.
b) can you really argue that a raise in taxation is not in many ways offset by increased worker productivity as a result of a lack of absenteeism? Maybe you could, but the fact of the matter is we simply do not have the data to do so.
c) thats an absurd blame the vicitim notion that isnt worth anyones time.
d) possibly true

1) you realize how much this would cost. To use btownmeggys example of something like cancer or a coma, thats 200 grand. And then you have to start talking about what a emergency is and what is not. You then create more red tape, slowing down healthcare to those who need it. And likely many people fall through the cracks.

2) while benefiting the middle class, this option to save out of your check in no way helps the 40-50 million americans who are squeaking by as it is and are likely to not be able to pay for healthcare. Since they are maintaing on a check to check basis, you really think they are going to be able to start putting money aside into a different fund? Clearly this type of solution does not understand the nature of the problem of national healthcare.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:00 pm

It isnt flawless, however, I believe you'll find the solution is one of the best. I cant find the exact reference, but an excellent economist Tim Harford elaborated on this keyhole theory, Ill try and find it. I think you'll find though that healthcare at the moment costs a lot more than it should, and that this works out reasonably well : people can use their own money to chosse what they want as treatment. Sure, there's plenty of money that has to go for emergencies, but you can force them to contribute at the point they chose to undergo expensive, extensive care.
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Postby btownmeggy on Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:02 pm

Naponleon Ier wrote:2. Allow people system by which they can put away a percentage of their paycheck into a high interest account which can build up cumulatively, and serve as their own health insurance

That way, people are able to decide what they need or their health selectively, using their own cash, not squandering other peoples, whilst emergencies are covered.
got tonkaed wrote:2) while benefiting the middle class, this option to save out of your check in no way helps the 40-50 million americans who are squeaking by as it is and are likely to not be able to pay for healthcare. Since they are maintaing on a check to check basis, you really think they are going to be able to start putting money aside into a different fund? Clearly this type of solution does not understand the nature of the problem of national healthcare.


It also does not help young people, including children, students, and young workers.

Oops, you've got a brain tumor and you've only earned $3000 working at the carwash as a summer job. Of that, $500 has been put into your medical account. Won't quite cover it.

A hospital administrator puts a big red stamp on your file that reads, "DEAD!"
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Postby got tonkaed on Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:04 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:It isnt flawless, however, I believe you'll find the solution is one of the best. I cant find the exact reference, but an excellent economist Tim Harford elaborated on this keyhole theory, Ill try and find it. I think you'll find though that healthcare at the moment costs a lot more than it should, and that this works out reasonably well : people can use their own money to chosse what they want as treatment. Sure, there's plenty of money that has to go for emergencies, but you can force them to contribute at the point they chose to undergo expensive, extensive care.


i guess it poses the question....how is this account any different than the currently proposed method which is accused of forcing people to get healthcare. If you in theory cannot recieve quality healthcare if you do not or cannot properly fund this account, how does that put you in any different straits than it does now.

Ultimately if your looking for free market solutions to social problems, there comes a point where economic good comes in conflict with social good. Gov. programs can mediate this by taking the side of social good, where as free market programs are much less likely to do so.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:07 pm

It is a question of balance and minimal intervention.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:07 pm

It is a question of balance and minimal intervention, though I can but agree with your last post.
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Postby got tonkaed on Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:12 pm

Napoleon Ier wrote:It is a question of balance and minimal intervention, though I can but agree with your last post.


ah but this sentiment forces me to wonder who benefits. As it stands, in many ways balance and minimial intervention does not seem to be doing much of the population a great bit of good. Certainly the current status quo allows an opperutnity for growth, but that growth does not reach everyone.

Very rarely does the status quo do positive things in the arena of social problems.
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Re: Why was socialism invented?

Postby Norse on Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:16 pm

Dancing Mustard wrote:
Norse wrote:Question.

Tell me how your angels get down like that? Charlie how your angels get down like that?


Ya know DM...I was waiting for someone to ask me that....no one seems to be able to read between the lines these days.

They get down something like this.....[Insert bum] - variant of calculus theory. Wiggle wiggle,.,.,.,.,.,.~wheres the fucking money~ @_@ "OMG! dont do that!!"..

*runs away with no clothes on*


I hope this explains it.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:18 pm

got tonkaed wrote:
Napoleon Ier wrote:It is a question of balance and minimal intervention, though I can but agree with your last post.


ah but this sentiment forces me to wonder who benefits. As it stands, in many ways balance and minimial intervention does not seem to be doing much of the population a great bit of good. Certainly the current status quo allows an opperutnity for growth, but that growth does not reach everyone.

Very rarely does the status quo do positive things in the arena of social problems.



Potentially I'd argue this still isn't opposed to my notion of keyhole economics,

A chapter titled "the inside story" in a book by Harford is about the skew that asymmetric information in markets, notably health insurance, can cause. Harford applies the "keyhole surgey" to healthcare and observers how the insurance-based market solution is misfiring badly in the US. The UK swept away the market and replaced it with bureaucracy. "Catastrophe insurance, which pays out only when a particular course of treatment is very expensive, is fairly cheap," he says, and cites the Singapore case-study.

"The typical Singaporean lives to the age of 80, and the cost of the system (both public and private) is a thousand dollars per person — less than the cost of the bureaucracy alone in the US."

Who pays? "Each year, the typical Singaporean pays about $700 privately (the average American pays $2,500 privately) and the government spends $300 dollars per person (five times less than the British government).
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Postby Norse on Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:27 pm

btownmeggy wrote:I want it! I want it!



Easy meggy....save it for the PM's sweatheart. :wink:
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