Why was socialism invented?

[got tonkaed]

I imagine the Illuminati had something to do with it...

Bloodlines....

i think it was your fault.....so there, it finally comes out....

its all your fault guis, all your fault.

[comic boy]

it was the only way poor guys with no leadership skill no initiative and no drive 2 work for what they get could find to put themselves in power and divy up the wealth of those who earned it

So if you cant afford an operation you should die yes !
If you have an accident at work and become disabled then tough right !
If your mentaly ill and cant work then you should starve !

I believe in Capitalism because it reflects human nature and is the only workable system but it MUST be diluted with Social provision - that my friend is Socialism.

[heavycola]

Socialism was invented as a reaction to the exploitation of capitalism. Ideas are all fine, but a pragmatic balance between ideologies needs to exist if an inclusive society is going to function.

Pure capitalism is a bad thing and pure socialism is a bad thing. It's the mix that provides a stable and humane society.

Well said sir.


otherwise:
A massive amount of bollocks has been talked in this thread. You don't know who you are.

[got tonkaed]

Socialism was invented as a reaction to the exploitation of capitalism. Ideas are all fine, but a pragmatic balance between ideologies needs to exist if an inclusive society is going to function.

Pure capitalism is a bad thing and pure socialism is a bad thing. It's the mix that provides a stable and humane society.

Well said sir.


otherwise:
A massive amount of bollocks has been talked in this thread. You don't know who you are.

you think im talking bollocks?!

i thought you thought i was legit.

[heavycola]

Socialism was invented as a reaction to the exploitation of capitalism. Ideas are all fine, but a pragmatic balance between ideologies needs to exist if an inclusive society is going to function.

Pure capitalism is a bad thing and pure socialism is a bad thing. It's the mix that provides a stable and humane society.

Well said sir.


otherwise:
A massive amount of bollocks has been talked in this thread. You don't know who you are.

you think im talking bollocks?!

i thought you thought i was legit.

no not you GT, i just read a couple of nonsensical posts elsewhere in this thread and for once my prediliction for mindless argument failed me.

[Anarchy Ninja]

It was clearly to f*ck Norse off, us socialist types find it incredibly amusing.

[got tonkaed]

ive been looking into getting mine replaced, i just dont do mindless arguing as well as i used to these days....

maybe ill ask for one for christmas?

[heavycola]

ive been looking into getting mine replaced, i just dont do mindless arguing as well as i used to these days....

maybe ill ask for one for christmas?

Just ask for a hot air blower. Works for me. And make sure it's clockwork - easier to wind up.

[spurgistan]

Goddamit, if you guys won't, then I'll have to pick up the slack. When I really should be working on my last exam (actually, it's just a letter to my main man Ted Kennedy. Ahh, the benefits of being a lib arts major) Regardless..slackers

Socialism is the polical belief that the state exists to care for its citizens. It is in no way diametrically opposed to capitalism, nor is it necessarily equitable with government oppression such as in the USSR or PRC. It is, essentially, a reaction to the exploitation of the working classes by the capitalist class. If you'd rather live in a Gilded Age type economy where money is funneled to the upper class without any sort of check or assurance that the workers could make a decent living, well then you are an idiot and would deserve the poverty you would be reduced to. Whether or not you are aware of it, you probably benefit from government programs more than you pay out. Even you, muy. Do you have any idea how many of my tax dollars go to your hick state? (Sorry, I think you called us east-coasters a mean thing before. If you didn't, consider my apologies in advance) We call them "farm subsidies", but they're a way of making the farming business as it exists in the US profitable. So although those of us with "cities" (familiar with the concept?) largely see socialist policies as a way to let those of us who lack steady employment (whether their fault or not, generally not) to live a sort of dignified existence, social services benefit those in rural areas more than they would care to admit.

[jiminski]

It's all about sex!

[muy_thaiguy]

Goddamit, if you guys won't, then I'll have to pick up the slack. When I really should be working on my last exam (actually, it's just a letter to my main man Ted Kennedy. Ahh, the benefits of being a lib arts major) Regardless..slackers

Socialism is the polical belief that the state exists to care for its citizens. It is in no way diametrically opposed to capitalism, nor is it necessarily equitable with government oppression such as in the USSR or PRC. It is, essentially, a reaction to the exploitation of the working classes by the capitalist class. If you'd rather live in a Gilded Age type economy where money is funneled to the upper class without any sort of check or assurance that the workers could make a decent living, well then you are an idiot and would deserve the poverty you would be reduced to. Whether or not you are aware of it, you probably benefit from government programs more than you pay out. Even you, muy. Do you have any idea how many of my tax dollars go to your hick state? (Sorry, I think you called us east-coasters a mean thing before. If you didn't, consider my apologies in advance) We call them "farm subsidies", but they're a way of making the farming business as it exists in the US profitable. So although those of us with "cities" (familiar with the concept?) largely see socialist policies as a way to let those of us who lack steady employment (whether their fault or not, generally not) to live a sort of dignified existence, social services benefit those in rural areas more than they would care to admit.

All i said about the East Coast, is that many tend to ignore what goes on out here in the Mid West. Not to mention that many political leaders only talk about the East Coast and solutions there, while undermining, if not flat out ignoring the states West of the Mississippi. I don't do name calling, unless I am pushed to the edge.

[unriggable]

Because people need money and those who have it don't want to give it away so it needs to be take from them.

Basically, steal from those that made it to where they are so slackers and bad workers get someone elses money is what you are saying.

Not really, example, welfare is a socialist program, and the highest percent of people who use it are white single mothers. Not slackers. Not drug addicts.

[Napoleon Ier]

Because people need money and those who have it don't want to give it away so it needs to be take from them.

Basically, steal from those that made it to where they are so slackers and bad workers get someone elses money is what you are saying.

Not really, example, welfare is a socialist program, and the highest percent of people who use it are white single mothers. Not slackers. Not drug addicts.

Welfare is a social program, not socialist. There appears to be a confusion about Socialism and its nature.

It isnt difficult to understand what "socialism" is in reallity,... and it is fairly otiose to waste time on "historical" material to do so, as they can only rely on anectdotal strength. Socialism is :
1/ Total destruction of subjectivity : organised planning of all aspects of society, and all dimensions of the human, from the individual upward to the federal/national authority.
2/ The auto-affirmation of an a-priori destiny excluding all possibilty of free thought or free usgae of critical senses ( planned economy, State art, etc)
3/ Sacrificing the imaginative faculty to the shrine of Orwellian collectivist destinarianism, imposed by an endoctrination since childhood and by controlled surrounding societal/enviromental factors (one-dimension medias, imposed syllabus (cf. my thoughts on the Creation/Evolution debate)
4/The individual nolonger posses himself or his work, the state does.

Therefore Socialism is the deification of a unique societal destiny, or ideal, at the detriment of the individual human, in short, the oppsite of liberalism. Either the citizen has the game in hand( liberalism), or the game is rigged so he gets fucked over ( socialism).

Simple really.

[got tonkaed]

its no wonder you dont like socialism with the words you use to describe it lol.

And although yes welfare is not socialist on its own, it is frequently labeled as such.

1) seemingly this understanding is flawed. When you are talking about larger number of people being involved in the decision making process, you certainly have more difficulty eliminating subjectivity. When a smaller number of people are making decisions, it is easy to make rational ones, when larger numbers of people are involved, it is seemingly less so. Also any modern day system you could argue is going to be working toward more objective standards. In many ways this argument seems to be a bit of ado about nothing.

2) Again i question some of the merits of this understanding. Especially considering some of the potential limits that are placed on capacity given the numbers involved, free thinking still has a relavance to such a system. In a search seemingly for better methods to distribute resources, id also question that there must be levels of critical and free thinking involved. Likewise, as many socalists movements seem to be from the people, i would argue these individuals begin this rational action as a process of free thought.

3) I think this is a very biased observation as a product of some of the reasons you espouse. Ideologically speaking, socialism has merits in individuality, they are simply expressed in a different way than perhaps you are used to looking at things. Every society or system is set up in ways to educate new individuals into that system, and usually done through a positive approach. The argument that socialist societies do this differently or in a more manipulative way than any other society, seems to be a matter of personal preference.

4) Again on a theorectical level, the individual possess's their work on a far greater level than possible in capitalism. As socialist groups would seem to be built on the basis that workers have a say in the production, that certainly is a stance that lends itself to greater work possession than a system which derives intellectual property in the form of one person.

Certainly 1-3 are perhaps more debatable, but your point on 4, at least in my estimation, shows a lack of understanding about socalism, and is to a point....pretty dumb.

[radiojake]

Basically, steal from those that made it to where they are so slackers and bad workers get someone elses money is what you are saying.

The fact that in capitalism, the rich most probably made their shitload of money through exploiting third world labour. (either abroad or with cheap immigrants in their own country) Also (and especially in colonised countries) the land the rich 'own' was probably stolen by murdering the indigenous who lived their previously. Capitalism, in theory, is all about free market and doing whatever you can to make a dollar. Too bad people really do whatever they can, even if that means fucking over people.

Also, I'm not necessarily advocating socialism here, just making sure you all realise that capitalism favours the upper class and exploits the lower class.

[unriggable]

Simple really.

Political Far Right (Statism)

-Rule of man
-Totalitarian
-Rights of State
-People serve the Gov't
-Dictator

Political Far Left (Anarchy)

-Rule of law
-Everybody is Equal
-State serves people
-Rights of individual

Economic Far Right (Libertarianism)

-"Equal Opportunity"
-No Public Property
-Regressive
-People Serve Economy
-Free Market
-Little to no Gov't Involvement
-Tax Wages
-No Public Government Aid

Economic Far Left (Communism)

-"Equal Outcome"
-No Private Property
-Economy Serves People
-Progressive
-High Taxes
-Large Gov't Aid and Involvement
-Tax Profits

[muy_thaiguy]

I can post diagrams too, radio.

[radiojake]

I can post diagrams too, radio.

clearly

[unriggable]

The point is that you have been told that communism is bad without really knowing what it is.

It's just the state helping those who don't have money at the expense of those who do.

Now on a scale of one to ten, a ten being communism and a 1 being capitalism, socialism is like a 6-8.

And welfare is a social program, its a socialist program. Welfare is the rich paying more taxes to help those without money. It's pretty fucking socialist.

[muy_thaiguy]

The point is that you have been told that communism is bad without really knowing what it is.

It's just the state helping those who don't have money at the expense of those who do.

Now on a scale of one to ten, a ten being communism and a 1 being capitalism, socialism is like a 6-8.

And welfare is a social program, its a socialist program. Welfare is the rich paying more taxes to help those without money. It's pretty fucking socialist.

Now, now, I never said I didn't know what it was, I said I didn't like it. I have expressed my views on it in several threads already. I don't feel the need to repeat myself. And since Socialism can be rated that high on the scale, it's not that far from Communism. On the scale, I would rate myself a 3 or so.

[unriggable]

The point is that you have been told that communism is bad without really knowing what it is.

It's just the state helping those who don't have money at the expense of those who do.

Now on a scale of one to ten, a ten being communism and a 1 being capitalism, socialism is like a 6-8.

And welfare is a social program, its a socialist program. Welfare is the rich paying more taxes to help those without money. It's pretty fucking socialist.

Now, now, I never said I didn't know what it was, I said I didn't like it. I have expressed my views on it in several threads already. I don't feel the need to repeat myself. And since Socialism can be rated that high on the scale, it's not that far from Communism. On the scale, I would rate myself a 3 or so.

Right. I'd put America at about a 4 right now.

[Ettin]

I'm no expert on this, not even close. But i think socialism was just another way to get power. "Hey, you guys on the bottom! We outnumber them like 10 to 1. After we win, you'll get an even split, all of you will." People at the bottom are like "Yesss!" because they can get more money. Like capitalism. Rich people like capitalism. Other people like capitalism too because they think they have the chance to strike it rich. Lottery winner, rock star, movie star, singer, winner of a reality show...list goes on. Capitalism is easier because all it is is making sure those with power keep it. Capitalism seems too work though, and not socialism. I like capitalism personally, if only because it works and I think I can get more money that way. If I'm getting anythin wrong please tell me. I might be getting communism and socialism confused. Should have googled it but tooo late now!

[btownmeggy]

I can post diagrams too, radio.

Kinda... flawed, huh?

[sangfroid]

Kinda... flawed, huh?

What's flawed?

[sangfroid]

Right. I'd put America at about a 4 right now.

US would have to be 2-3, given its weak implementation of a welfare state. UK/Australia would be a 4 and France/Germany being a 5/6.