The right to bear arms.

[Snorri1234]

they don't even give sentences to drug dealers or repeat sex offenders who really deserve that kind of sentence.

they just took the death penalty off the table in New York so, folks are paying taxes to house all these criminals.

I don't know about you but, i think my tax dollars can go to better use like bettering education or creating places for kids to play and keep them off the streets.

Good thing the deathsentence costs more in tax. You forget that a deathsentence is a huge hassle and with all the appeals the convicted felon can make it will cost more for you.
I know it sounds counter-innituive but it's true.

[Snorri1234]

the bad guys will always have a way of gaining access to weapons. it's the good guys that go purchase a weapon, register it and obey the law the ones i'm talking about.

i'm just saying that not everyone is bad but bad stuff happens.

say you are in the mall and some idiot comes in and starts shooting people.
you have no gun but, someone does. they take aim and kill the assailant.

I'm not saying the people that have been killed are going to be safer. i am saying that less people will die because someone was able to stop the bad guy.

now, you're at the mall are you going to thankful that that guy had a way of stopping him or are you gonna be mad cause he was carrying a gun?

That's why I support that there should be armed security there.
Giving everyone a gun isn't the best option. Giving trained proffesionals is.

[muy_thaiguy]

GT, for the Colombine part, what if the students were allowed to have guns in their vehicles? My high school was a bit strict on the issue, but many kids come from ranches, or keep their guns in their vehicles (usually trucks) in case they were to go hunting on short notice. Needless to say, there have been kids at my school that came close to the point of doing a shooting, but when you think about several hundered other kids owning guns that are a stones throw away from the school doors, it makes one re-think their choices on the matter.

Snorri, it may seem that the death sentence may cost more, but in the long run, life in prison actually costs more.

[Snorri1234]

Snorri, it may seem that the death sentence may cost more, but in the long run, life in prison actually costs more.

No it just doesn't. here's a factsheet

[muy_thaiguy]

Snorri, it may seem that the death sentence may cost more, but in the long run, life in prison actually costs more.

No it just doesn't. Unless you're really young at the time (like 18 or something) it just costs more to kill you than to keep you in prison.

And aren't the ages for criminals going down while crime rates go up?

[muy_thaiguy]

That fact sheet only had the financial records of 4 states that used the death penalty, last I checked, there are a few more then 4.

[Snorri1234]

Snorri, it may seem that the death sentence may cost more, but in the long run, life in prison actually costs more.

No it just doesn't. Unless you're really young at the time (like 18 or something) it just costs more to kill you than to keep you in prison.

And aren't the ages for criminals going down while crime rates go up?

Yeah I edited.

[Snorri1234]

That fact sheet only had the financial records of 4 states that used the death penalty, last I checked, there are a few more then 4.

Yeah.

There's 6 states there though.


And still....how are those states not an example then?
And what about the other things like discrimination (if the victim is white the odds of a death-penalty rise about 3,5 times)? Or the fact that there have been times innocent people have been executed?

[spurgistan]

That fact sheet only had the financial records of 4 states that used the death penalty, last I checked, there are a few more then 4.

Those were four states in which conclusive studies showed that life without parole is prohibitively more expensive than the death penalty That includes Texas, where most executions take place. If Florida adds $50 million to the annual budget over what it would take if everybody got life without parole, it's not going to be drastically different for Nebraska.

Speaking of Nebraska, WTF are you guys still using electrocution for!? Have you guys gotten to the mid-20th century yet?

[muy_thaiguy]

That fact sheet only had the financial records of 4 states that used the death penalty, last I checked, there are a few more then 4.

Yeah.

There's 6 states there though.


And still....how are those states not an example then?
And what about the other things like discrimination (if the victim is white the odds of a death-penalty rise about 3,5 times)? Or the fact that there have been times innocent people have been executed?

No, it has 6 paragraghs, but only 4 states mentioned. Also, considering that whites are in the majority in America, of course there is going to be a higher chance for whites to be on the death penalty, and that mistakes are made from time to time, but never always.

[muy_thaiguy]

That fact sheet only had the financial records of 4 states that used the death penalty, last I checked, there are a few more then 4.

Those were four states in which conclusive studies showed that life without parole is prohibitively more expensive than the death penalty That includes Texas, where most executions take place. If Florida adds $50 million to the annual budget over what it would take if everybody got life without parole, it's not going to be drastically different for Nebraska.

Speaking of Nebraska, WTF are you guys still using electrocution for!? Have you guys gotten to the mid-20th century yet?

Utah uses the firing squad, so what?

[Snorri1234]

That fact sheet only had the financial records of 4 states that used the death penalty, last I checked, there are a few more then 4.

Yeah.

There's 6 states there though.


And still....how are those states not an example then?
And what about the other things like discrimination (if the victim is white the odds of a death-penalty rise about 3,5 times)? Or the fact that there have been times innocent people have been executed?

No, it has 6 paragraghs, but only 4 states mentioned. Also, considering that whites are in the majority in America, of course there is going to be a higher chance for whites to be on the death penalty, and that mistakes are made from time to time, but never always.[/quote

Wow, you missed like 3 of my points when I bring up 3 points....

1.) There are actually 6 states mentioned. Check page 4 when it talks about costs.
2.) I wasn't talking about whites being the prosecuted, I was talking about them being the victims. (You know, the people who suffered the crime?)
And they actually accounted for the fact that there are more white people, y'know. That's basic math right there.
3.) Yes but since those mistakes wouldn't be totally irreservible if there was no deathpenalty, I fail to see your point there.

[muy_thaiguy]

Guess I missed it on page 4.

I never said prosecuted, you are putting words into my mouth there. I said that since whites are in the majority, they are going to be more likely to be on death row in higher numbers then people of other colors.

My point is with those that are would otherwise be on death row, have a tendency to commit crimes while in prison. In other words, they are behind bars, but they haven't stopped their crimes. There is only one way to deal with those people, and that is for the death penalty.

[Snorri1234]

Guess I missed it on page 4.

I never said prosecuted, you are putting words into my mouth there. I said that since whites are in the majority, they are going to be more likely to be on death row in higher numbers then people of other colors.

Yes and that's why you missed my point. I wasn't talking about them.
I was talking about how people who kill whities more often get the death-penalty.

My point is with those that are would otherwise be on death row, have a tendency to commit crimes while in prison. In other words, they are behind bars, but they haven't stopped their crimes. There is only one way to deal with those people, and that is for the death penalty.

Sure, but you do realise that most of the people who get the death-penalty aren't exactly crime-lords? A peadohphile rapist who killed 2 girls isn't likely to suddenly commit other crimes when in prison. He is actually more likely to get raped or beaten up by the other prisoners, which I feel is kinda a good thing. (Not supporting it like that, but I couldn't care less.)

[muy_thaiguy]

whities

Excuse me?

As for the pedo one, they have nothing to offer society, so off them, since they think raping little kids is perfectly okay. Same goes for any rapist in my opinion. These sickos should be put to death as well.

[jiminski]

I live in Japan. There are very few guns here. There are very few mass killings here.
The last big mass killing was probably the Sarin gas attack in Tokyo. I'd prefer it if Sarin gas wasn't made available to more people.
So no- the right to bear arms isn't something I agree with.
Or were you simply talking about guns?
Or certain types of gun?

Well no, not in Japan.

But in America for sure, the right to bear arms is needed.

And is considered an unalienable (can not be taken from you) right. Which is why it won't be repealedanytime soon, jay.

there is quite a lot of dispute as to the universal coverage of the Amendment MT...
Many hold that the right is limited to Militias and was never intended to apply to all 'normal' citizens.

That's only those that look at one part of it.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It is in a listed style, as you can see. It says, "The right of the people being the main part of this. It does NOT say it is only for militias, it is meant for every citizen of the US.

Hmm i am not sure i agree MT but this is rather a 'family problem' and i am reluctant to enter the fray.

Ah well here goes...... !


It is all about interpretation in my opinion;) The original text was motivated by a time where guerrilla warfare had defeated the British ... therefore an ability for the individual to maintain their liberty within the State and ensure the balance in the relationship was sacrosanct.

The importance of the Militia was that the people who wrote the constitution were wise enough to include a safety valve against the amendments corruption. They were not in fact the founding fathers of the Far-right American gun lobby.
This carefully ambiguous document of great genius was constructed to anticipate and allow for the changes in your society and the requirements the placed upon it.

The facilitation of the 'Right to Bear Arms' is as key to the balance between society and individual within your society and as profoundly formative as the 'Social Contract' is to European Liberty.

However the principal has been hijacked from its initial context.
These clever men could not quite anticipate its corruption by other powerful and clever men as your Nation evolved and grew.

The principle was not included to protect the rights of an idiot on a pickup to have armer piercing shells loaded into his 1 million rounds a minute fully automatic machine canon. (great weapon!) It was there as an acknowledgment of the 'peoples' sacrifice and their eternal importance to your great nation!

You honestly beleive that more safety is gained by more arms, not for your army or your militias but for every individual!?
Good Lord surely you can take yourself outside and look in to see the stark obscenity of this perception!

If it were not so damn serious it would be hillarious! (not a personal attack in any way MT, you are a top man... but i do find it extraordinary that top chaps have this belief, the magical diversity of cultures i suppose)

[Frigidus]

whities

Excuse me?

As for the pedo one, they have nothing to offer society, so off them, since they think raping little kids is perfectly okay. Same goes for any rapist in my opinion. These sickos should be put to death as well.

If it came down to just putting a bullet in their head that would be fine, but as mentioned earlier, the appeals process is lengthy and expensive. Life in prison without parole would be cheaper and still removes them from society. Problem solved.

[Snorri1234]

whities

Excuse me?

As for the pedo one, they have nothing to offer society, so off them, since they think raping little kids is perfectly okay. Same goes for any rapist in my opinion. These sickos should be put to death as well.

Yeah I sympathize with the notion of letting them die. But really, why do that instead of letting them suffer a lifetime in prison whilst getting raped?


And that whities was just a way of making the word shorter. Instead of saying "Anglo-Saxon americans". (Faulty as that may be, it's still the same as afro-americans.)

[Napoleon Ier]

ah but snorri...moral responsibility is impossible, huh?

[greenoaks]

It is not the criminals with guns you need to worry about - much.
It is not the ordinary citizen who wants to own a gun you need to worry about.

It is the person who goes a little psycho and grabs a gun from one of those 'ordinary' citizens and goes on a killing spree.

10 years ago we had a few massacres in my country, Strathfield shopping centre, some street in Melbourne and then the Port Arthur massacre. During the outpouring of grief our Prime Minister passed a law banning guns and initiated a buyback scheme.

Since then gun-related deaths have dropped 40%.

Now when someone goes a little crazy most of them are only able to grab a knife to threaten people with. Their ability to do large amounts of harm to the community in a short space of time has been largely curtailed. The police or security officers are also able to resove the situation with things like pepper spray. Unless you live in Melbourne, the cops down there just shoot you dead. No expense trial or lengthy prison stay to worry about.

[muy_thaiguy]

whities

Excuse me?

As for the pedo one, they have nothing to offer society, so off them, since they think raping little kids is perfectly okay. Same goes for any rapist in my opinion. These sickos should be put to death as well.

Yeah I sympathize with the notion of letting them die. But really, why do that instead of letting them suffer a lifetime in prison whilst getting raped?


And that whities was just a way of making the word shorter. Instead of saying "Anglo-Saxon americans". (Faulty as that may be, it's still the same as afro-americans.)

I'm one of those people that believes that if you are an American citizen, you are only American. I don't any other country doing that, except the US.

Frig, like I said earlier, crimes still happen in prison, and when people find out about it, they bitch and moan about inmates rights and how they should be treated better, and make the situation more complicated. Especially with those that have no qualms about killing other people simply because they pissed them off.

jim, guerrilla warfare won in the Southern states, yet in the Northern and Middle Colonies, it was mainly out right fights. Also, the 2nd Amendment is part of the Bill of Rights, rights that cannot be taken away from anyone. If you want to look at it for militia only, then you have to do the same with the other 9 amendments as well. The Founding Fathers put that in so if the government became to powerful or corrupt (along those lines) then the people would rise up and take back our country. The founding fathers deeply believed in state's rights and the first 10 amendments.

[jiminski]

whities

Excuse me?

As for the pedo one, they have nothing to offer society, so off them, since they think raping little kids is perfectly okay. Same goes for any rapist in my opinion. These sickos should be put to death as well.

Yeah I sympathize with the notion of letting them die. But really, why do that instead of letting them suffer a lifetime in prison whilst getting raped?


And that whities was just a way of making the word shorter. Instead of saying "Anglo-Saxon americans". (Faulty as that may be, it's still the same as afro-americans.)

I'm one of those people that believes that if you are an American citizen, you are only American. I don't any other country doing that, except the US.

Frig, like I said earlier, crimes still happen in prison, and when people find out about it, they bitch and moan about inmates rights and how they should be treated better, and make the situation more complicated. Especially with those that have no qualms about killing other people simply because they pissed them off.

jim, guerrilla warfare won in the Southern states, yet in the Northern and Middle Colonies, it was mainly out right fights. Also, the 2nd Amendment is part of the Bill of Rights, rights that cannot be taken away from anyone. If you want to look at it for militia only, then you have to do the same with the other 9 amendments as well. The Founding Fathers put that in so if the government became to powerful or corrupt (along those lines) then the people would rise up and take back our country. The founding fathers deeply believed in state's rights and the first 10 amendments.

I agree and my part regarding the RTBA and Social Contract alludes to that.
i still don't concede that it is an open and shut case MT and is open to interpretation.

And anyway these are different times... Surely the amounts of death by the gun in the US, partially precludes the view that the inclusion of the Right to Bear Arms as a guiding principle of State, stops death by the gun.

[Napoleon Ier]

It is not the criminals with guns you need to worry about - much.
It is not the ordinary citizen who wants to own a gun you need to worry about.

It is the person who goes a little psycho and grabs a gun from one of those 'ordinary' citizens and goes on a killing spree.

10 years ago we had a few massacres in my country, Strathfield shopping centre, some street in Melbourne and then the Port Arthur massacre. During the outpouring of grief our Prime Minister passed a law banning guns and initiated a buyback scheme.

Since then gun-related deaths have dropped 40%.

Now when someone goes a little crazy most of them are only able to grab a knife to threaten people with. Their ability to do large amounts of harm to the community in a short space of time has been largely curtailed. The police or security officers are also able to resove the situation with things like pepper spray. Unless you live in Melbourne, the cops down there just shoot you dead. No expense trial or lengthy prison stay to worry about.

I'd potentially argue that that was an already establishes trend.

Youe statistics, you see come from 1991 onwards.

I'd recommend this reading on the effects of the legislation

http://bjc.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/azl084v1

Its also telling the Port Arthur massacre was perpetrated using illegally obtained rifles.

[THORNHEART]

Once again the right to bear arms has proved it self valid.

a maniac gunman was taken down by a plainclothes secrurity woman in new life church the other day.

this man could have gotten his gun in several ways wile the woman was totaly legal in her possession of the gun this proves that criminals will always get guns somehow law or no law...so i say facilitate the process of citizens getting guns so we can deffend our selfs better

surveys (acording to the nra) say that 2 millions robberies a year are prevent by homeowners/business owners exercising their right to carry!


u guys got guns ...check in and be proud about it...WERE THE GOOD GUYS

you come to my door wanting trouble youll get a 160 gram 30 06 springfield rifle poking out the door

tell us all your make and models!!

[Strife]

Lock 'er down, we don't need another thread bout this. Simpley just post this in the other thread.