A new map by DiM. looking for a name. V3-page 6. xml done

[DiM]

again that is not abuse. if you make a freestyle game and then go to lunch it is entirely your fault.

Well the point of this map is to be 100% luck. In the described event it is not...it add's a level of skill to the map. Is that not abuse?

so skill is abuse? strange, then i wish to complain i have more than 100 games where i lost because i was abused

It is when the design is to be 100% luck. Same as the double turn in freestyle 1v1 was called abuse as you could stop your opponent having 24 hours to make their move, as it was designed...

abuse is when you force someone to do something he doesn't want or prevent someone from doing something he wants.
this map does not fit in any of the above cases.

if you start a freestyle game on this map and then go to lunch and when you come back you see i took my turn and killed you, does that mean i abused you? will you file a complaint against me? how would that complaint sound?

something like this perhaps?

"Suspected user: DiM
This user is suspected of abusing the game system to take my points
Game where problem is found: 1234567
Explanation: i started a freestyle game and left to lunch and when i came back this jerk had already taken his turn and killed me. i want people to respect lunch breaks and have patience until i finish my meal. i chew slowly because it's good for digestion"

get serious man. there's no way this map can be abused. simple as that. if you start a freestyle game but don't take your turn as soon as possible then it's your own fault. no abuse no nothing.

[Clive]

again that is not abuse. if you make a freestyle game and then go to lunch it is entirely your fault.

Well the point of this map is to be 100% luck. In the described event it is not...it add's a level of skill to the map. Is that not abuse?

so skill is abuse? strange, then i wish to complain i have more than 100 games where i lost because i was abused

It is when the design is to be 100% luck. Same as the double turn in freestyle 1v1 was called abuse as you could stop your opponent having 24 hours to make their move, as it was designed...

abuse is when you force someone to do something he doesn't want or prevent someone from doing something he wants.
this map does not fit in any of the above cases.

if you start a freestyle game on this map and then go to lunch and when you come back you see i took my turn and killed you, does that mean i abused you? will you file a complaint against me? how would that complaint sound?

something like this perhaps?

"Suspected user: DiM
This user is suspected of abusing the game system to take my points
Game where problem is found: 1234567
Explanation: i started a freestyle game and left to lunch and when i came back this jerk had already taken his turn and killed me. i want people to respect lunch breaks and have patience until i finish my meal. i chew slowly because it's good for digestion"

get serious man. there's no way this map can be abused. simple as that. if you start a freestyle game but don't take your turn as soon as possible then it's your own fault. no abuse no nothing.

Well. If I were to create a 6p freestyle on this game, wait for someone to join..then drop it..and join when there are 5 people, and move before any of the other's have realised the game has started..the one joining last can move quickest in freestyle..

[DiM]

V3

DONE:
* modified some more graphics.
* reduced size to 700*600px

TO-DO:
* graphics
* convince people it's a nice map

NOTES:
* i still don't know if wheel of fortune is copyrighted. so i'm not sure if that's the final name.

[rebelman]

if this becomes a map (big if) i see people being confused with segment 1 being called winner - and may believe you need to capture this segment to win the game

This is easily fixed by putting "Jack-pot" or some other text above this segment instead of "winner"

[DiM]

abuse is when you force someone to do something he doesn't want or prevent someone from doing something he wants.
this map does not fit in any of the above cases.

if you start a freestyle game on this map and then go to lunch and when you come back you see i took my turn and killed you, does that mean i abused you? will you file a complaint against me? how would that complaint sound?

something like this perhaps?

"Suspected user: DiM
This user is suspected of abusing the game system to take my points
Game where problem is found: 1234567
Explanation: i started a freestyle game and left to lunch and when i came back this jerk had already taken his turn and killed me. i want people to respect lunch breaks and have patience until i finish my meal. i chew slowly because it's good for digestion"

get serious man. there's no way this map can be abused. simple as that. if you start a freestyle game but don't take your turn as soon as possible then it's your own fault. no abuse no nothing.

Well. If I were to create a 6p freestyle on this game, wait for someone to join..then drop it..and join when there are 5 people, and move before any of the other's have realised the game has started..the one joining last can move quickest in freestyle..

yes. but that's still not abuse. plain and simple. if you create or join a freestyle map and then leave it's your own fault you're not there when the game starts. it's not anybody's fault.

please read again what abuse really means. in your example you still can't force anybody to not play his turn. in fact by the time you click join game then go to "my games" enter the game and press begin turn, a quicker guy could already be deploying his troops and attacking like a mad man if he pays attention. abuse is when you gain something by forcing somebody to do something against his will or prevent him from doing what he wants. in your example you do neither.

[Coleman]

Thanks for reducing it. There appears to be some controversy here so I may be a little slow to move it. Assume when I do that you have my blessing, or overwhelming support.

Hope you understand.

[Clive]

abuse is when you force someone to do something he doesn't want or prevent someone from doing something he wants.
this map does not fit in any of the above cases.

if you start a freestyle game on this map and then go to lunch and when you come back you see i took my turn and killed you, does that mean i abused you? will you file a complaint against me? how would that complaint sound?

something like this perhaps?

"Suspected user: DiM
This user is suspected of abusing the game system to take my points
Game where problem is found: 1234567
Explanation: i started a freestyle game and left to lunch and when i came back this jerk had already taken his turn and killed me. i want people to respect lunch breaks and have patience until i finish my meal. i chew slowly because it's good for digestion"

get serious man. there's no way this map can be abused. simple as that. if you start a freestyle game but don't take your turn as soon as possible then it's your own fault. no abuse no nothing.

Well. If I were to create a 6p freestyle on this game, wait for someone to join..then drop it..and join when there are 5 people, and move before any of the other's have realised the game has started..the one joining last can move quickest in freestyle..

yes. but that's still not abuse. plain and simple. if you create or join a freestyle map and then leave it's your own fault you're not there when the game starts. it's not anybody's fault.

please read again what abuse really means. in your example you still can't force anybody to not play his turn. in fact by the time you click join game then go to "my games" enter the game and press begin turn, a quicker guy could already be deploying his troops and attacking like a mad man if he pays attention. abuse is when you gain something by forcing somebody to do something against his will or prevent him from doing what he wants. in your example you do neither.

Ok, so it's not abuse. I didn't understand the meaning of the word. But it seems like cheating to gain cheap points, you could have a pretty much perfect record...

[DiM]

if this becomes a map (big if) i see people being confused with segment 1 being called winner - and may believe you need to capture this segment to win the game

This is easily fixed by putting "Jack-pot" or some other text above this segment instead of "winner"

fair comment. will change to jackpot

[DiM]

Ok, so it's not abuse. I didn't understand the meaning of the word. But it seems like cheating to gain cheap points, you could have a pretty much perfect record...

not really. i've joined quite a few freestyle games, not many but enough to see that people are spot on when a game begins. the thing is anybody that joins a freestyle game will try to stick around to at least play 1 turn. they want to seize each opportunity they have and thus they quickly enter the game. not all of them play, some wait until others have played their turn. but most are there when the game starts. it's in the nature of freestyle. you must always be there.

i would be very surprised if in a 6p game you would join last and manage to finish the game before anybody else begins his turn. and autoattacking like crazy can leave you with 10+ troops lost and if only one guy manages to begin turn and deploy he already has more troops than you

[DiM]

Thanks for reducing it. There appears to be some controversy here so I may be a little slow to move it. Assume when I do that you have my blessing, or overwhelming support.

Hope you understand.

yeah no problem mate. i didn't ask for movement. i'm just doing updates because there's not much else to do. i'm just talking to clive and doing updates at the moment

[Clive]

Ok, so it's not abuse. I didn't understand the meaning of the word. But it seems like cheating to gain cheap points, you could have a pretty much perfect record...

not really. i've joined quite a few freestyle games, not many but enough to see that people are spot on when a game begins. the thing is anybody that joins a freestyle game will try to stick around to at least play 1 turn. they want to seize each opportunity they have and thus they quickly enter the game. not all of them play, some wait until others have played their turn. but most are there when the game starts. it's in the nature of freestyle. you must always be there.

i would be very surprised if in a 6p game you would join last and manage to finish the game before anybody else begins his turn. and autoattacking like crazy can leave you with 10+ troops lost and if only one guy manages to begin turn and deploy he already has more troops than you

Ok. Well I guess this is the point for me to give up and accept it. Not only am I no good at arguing, but it seems I also have no basis for the argument..

[DiM]

Ok, so it's not abuse. I didn't understand the meaning of the word. But it seems like cheating to gain cheap points, you could have a pretty much perfect record...

not really. i've joined quite a few freestyle games, not many but enough to see that people are spot on when a game begins. the thing is anybody that joins a freestyle game will try to stick around to at least play 1 turn. they want to seize each opportunity they have and thus they quickly enter the game. not all of them play, some wait until others have played their turn. but most are there when the game starts. it's in the nature of freestyle. you must always be there.

i would be very surprised if in a 6p game you would join last and manage to finish the game before anybody else begins his turn. and autoattacking like crazy can leave you with 10+ troops lost and if only one guy manages to begin turn and deploy he already has more troops than you

Ok. Well I guess this is the point for me to give up and accept it. Not only am I no good at arguing, but it seems I also have no basis for the argument..

*makes another scratch on the wall next to the Debates Won list*
*glances proudly at the Debates Lost list that has no scratches whatsoever*



all joking aside, i'll say it again. there's no way to abuse anything on this map. really. i usually think very carefully all the maps i suggest (except for my first few suggestions, i was new at this so blame my ignorance on the foundry process)

[Coleman]

*scratches DiM's debates lost list for map sizes*

[DiM]

*scratches DiM's debates lost list for map sizes*

nope that's far from over. the sizes will be updated not now but in the future.

but i'll mark it as a maybe


now go write my bio for the superstars tournament and update the rankings cause i won my first game

[WidowMakers]

I'm sure you will find a lot of people that will play this map, but I'm not sure that is a good thing.

Honestly I'm not fond of this or that egg idea either.

Doodle Earth is one thing. It's still conquer club though (well at least very close to it).

These maps are just gambling. There is the strategy of should I attack, or should I let others attack first. But, honestly this will come down to luck of the dice 90% of the time.

Conquer Club is about strategy and having fun. Points are just a byproduct. I don't want to see a map that, in my opinion, is solely based on points.

A lot of people will play it. Point grabbers. I don't think that's a good thing. Earning points is what matters.

I remember how you stopped unfair freestyle point gaining tactics in 1v1 games. You might not have done it in a way that everyone liked or thought was proper, but nobody can use these tactics again to get points. To me, this map goes against what that person did. Conquer Club is about fun and strategy not about gambling for points.

I agree.

if you agree then perhaps you'd like to answer the question i asked edbeard.

if lots of people will play this map then why deny them the pleasure of doing it just because a few people won't play it?

people told me AoM is too crazy to be played and yet it is. the same people said doodle earth is crap and won't be played and if i remember correctly some harsh words where said like "disgrace to other maps" and stuff like that. and yet doodle earth is very played.

again i ask just 2 things.

1. for people that say this won't be played.
"what makes you say that?"
2. for those that admit it will be played but don't want to see it made.
"why?"

1) Just because it is played does not make it good for CC. Points on CC are supposedly there to help gauge a players ability to play the game. Yes there are issues with how it is handled. Single, double, triple, freestyle, no cards.... These all affect the score but hey all have something in common.

By adding this the points become more meaningless. Ranks and badges are useless.

2)IT IS NOT A MAP
I am not saying people won't play I am saying it is stupid. An dhere is why.

You might as well not even make a map and have Lack reprogram the code to randomly select a player to win.
Here is how it works.

1) A player makes a game (2 player,3 player ,4 player .....whatever)
2) Game starts when last player joins.
3) Lack reprograms the code so random.org picks a winner based on the number of players
4) Points are automatically traded and there is no need for a map.
5) Do it again and complete destroy the point of this site.

THIS IS NOT CC. This is have fun gambling with fake points. If this was a gambling site, sure make it. It is not. It is a world domination strategy game.

All your idea does is replaces step 3 with 15 seconds of autoattack.

WM

[I GOT SERVED]

Firstly, lemme say that this is quite the concept for a map. I for one, find it quite intriguing. WM has brought up an excellent point. But there is the other side of the coin. Some people (such as myself) enjoy gambling. And this could be a great map to do so. YES. People will get aggravated and annoyed. Also, this will usher in a new era of people just out-lucking the other players, and the top end of the scoreboard will be filled with players that don't deserve to be there.

So really, I'm still up in the air on this one. That is, until someone convinces me otherwise.

As for a name, maybe "Wheel of luck" or "Feelin' Lucky?"

[mibi]

I must say, I find it quite asinine that you to continue to push this map when so many people think it will be a detriment to the site.

[hulmey]

maybe there will be an era, when this map quickly falls to the bottom of the list and lack has wated his time putting it up for people. His time is better served doing something else than wasting his time on a pile of poo like this!!

[DiM]

I'm sure you will find a lot of people that will play this map, but I'm not sure that is a good thing.

Honestly I'm not fond of this or that egg idea either.

Doodle Earth is one thing. It's still conquer club though (well at least very close to it).

These maps are just gambling. There is the strategy of should I attack, or should I let others attack first. But, honestly this will come down to luck of the dice 90% of the time.

Conquer Club is about strategy and having fun. Points are just a byproduct. I don't want to see a map that, in my opinion, is solely based on points.

A lot of people will play it. Point grabbers. I don't think that's a good thing. Earning points is what matters.

I remember how you stopped unfair freestyle point gaining tactics in 1v1 games. You might not have done it in a way that everyone liked or thought was proper, but nobody can use these tactics again to get points. To me, this map goes against what that person did. Conquer Club is about fun and strategy not about gambling for points.

I agree.

if you agree then perhaps you'd like to answer the question i asked edbeard.

if lots of people will play this map then why deny them the pleasure of doing it just because a few people won't play it?

people told me AoM is too crazy to be played and yet it is. the same people said doodle earth is crap and won't be played and if i remember correctly some harsh words where said like "disgrace to other maps" and stuff like that. and yet doodle earth is very played.

again i ask just 2 things.

1. for people that say this won't be played.
"what makes you say that?"
2. for those that admit it will be played but don't want to see it made.
"why?"

1) Just because it is played does not make it good for CC. Points on CC are supposedly there to help gauge a players ability to play the game. Yes there are issues with how it is handled. Single, double, triple, freestyle, no cards.... These all affect the score but hey all have something in common.

By adding this the points become more meaningless. Ranks and badges are useless.

what doesn't make it good for CC. if it's going to be played then it means it is good. people come here to have fun. and if this makes them happy then why not? because you say so? because a few others say so? not really. if there are people out there that want to play this then so be it. heck, as you can see there are people in the thread that say they would play this. as for badges and ranks they are there just for fun. and no they won't become meaningless because of this map. i hardly think anybody can and will ever become conqueror solely based on this map. why? because upper ranks won't really play it that much and once you get to the upper ranks you'll have nobody to play with. simply playing against lower ranks on this map will not be good because unlike a normal map where strategy can boost your chances here it's just luck. in a 1v1 game you have 50% win. would a player with 2000 points risk losing 60 to a cook? never.

2)IT IS NOT A MAP
I am not saying people won't play I am saying it is stupid. An dhere is why.

You might as well not even make a map and have Lack reprogram the code to randomly select a player to win.
Here is how it works.

1) A player makes a game (2 player,3 player ,4 player .....whatever)
2) Game starts when last player joins.
3) Lack reprograms the code so random.org picks a winner based on the number of players
4) Points are automatically traded and there is no need for a map.
5) Do it again and complete destroy the point of this site.

THIS IS NOT CC. This is have fun gambling with fake points. If this was a gambling site, sure make it. It is not. It is a world domination strategy game.

All your idea does is replaces step 3 with 15 seconds of autoattack.

WM

it is a map. a luck based map. simple as that. if you consider the strategical aspect then yes it's not a map.

but as i previously stated we have a lot of potential players for this. so why not?

[chessplaya]

are u telling me there are only 6 terr. and every1 gets 100 armies ??? and they have to eliminate each other?

lol this is funny 1 !

good luck with it

[DiM]

Firstly, lemme say that this is quite the concept for a map. I for one, find it quite intriguing. WM has brought up an excellent point. But there is the other side of the coin. Some people (such as myself) enjoy gambling. And this could be a great map to do so. YES. People will get aggravated and annoyed. Also, this will usher in a new era of people just out-lucking the other players, and the top end of the scoreboard will be filled with players that don't deserve to be there.

So really, I'm still up in the air on this one. That is, until someone convinces me otherwise.

As for a name, maybe "Wheel of luck" or "Feelin' Lucky?"

in theory a player could simply win every game on this map and become conqueror, but the chances of doing that are the same as a player having perfect dice on any other map and becoming conqueror. so really slim.

this map will be played by lower ranks that are willing to risk a few points. let's assume a miracle happens and a new recruit manages to get lucky and get to 2000 points by playing this map. he then has 2 choices.

1. keep playing it and since he can't get any high rankers to join his game he will have to settle for risking 40 points with the chance of winning 10 or less. which would be stupid since the map works best with people of your same rank. if he decides to do this he will never make it past 2000 points. he has 50% chance of winning a 1v1 game. and since he loses 40 and wins 10 points from every win, it means that he must somehow increase his chance of winning that 1v1 from 50% to 80%. that's impossible.

2. start playing other maps where strategy can compensate the innitial winning chance. if he plays other maps and keeps winning points then it really means he's good at CC and deserves to be where he is.
if he doesn't win any more points then he'll fall back down .

so as you see nothing above 2000 will be influenced by this map. i actually suspect that it's effects will be minor over 1600 points but thats just speculation.

oh and thanks for the name suggestions.

[DiM]

I must say, I find it quite asinine that you to continue to push this map when so many people think it will be a detriment to the site.

i have a gift

maybe there will be an era, when this map quickly falls to the bottom of the list and lack has wated his time putting it up for people. His time is better served doing something else than wasting his time on a pile of poo like this!!

not all maps are great successes. if people don't play them then they simply fall to the bottom and that's it. we have several maps that share the places at the bottom. less successful maps. would you say that making them was wrong? i doubt it since i'm sure some people play them. few people true but at least some do it.

[Telvannia]

you could only a max of 500 per game on this map. Due toi the rule of taking a maximum of 100 points per player. Therefore the chances of someone rising fast using this map is low.

And DiM there are about 20,000 active players, (taken from scoreboard) so you are looking at 2,000 pms to get a 10% opinion of this.

What you could do though which would work is, you have 80 pages about of scores, so if you sent 10-25 per page, you would then get a pretty good spread of what people think of this map. And then could work out what ranks would think this was a good map.

[DiM]

you could only a max of 500 per game on this map. Due toi the rule of taking a maximum of 100 points per player. Therefore the chances of someone rising fast using this map is low.

i don't think we'll see a game where somebody will take 500 points on this map. but even if it were nobody will gain vast amounts of points and get to high ranks. here's a more detailed post:

in theory a player could simply win every game on this map and become conqueror, but the chances of doing that are the same as a player having perfect dice on any other map and becoming conqueror. so really slim.

this map will be played by lower ranks that are willing to risk a few points. let's assume a miracle happens and a new recruit manages to get lucky and get to 2000 points by playing this map. he then has 2 choices.

1. keep playing it and since he can't get any high rankers to join his game he will have to settle for risking 40 points with the chance of winning 10 or less. which would be stupid since the map works best with people of your same rank. if he decides to do this he will never make it past 2000 points. he has 50% chance of winning a 1v1 game. and since he loses 40 and wins 10 points from every win, it means that he must somehow increase his chance of winning that 1v1 from 50% to 80%. that's impossible.

2. start playing other maps where strategy can compensate the initial winning chance. if he plays other maps and keeps winning points then it really means he's good at CC and deserves to be where he is.
if he doesn't win any more points then he'll fall back down .

so as you see nothing above 2000 will be influenced by this map. i actually suspect that it's effects will be minor over 1600 points but thats just speculation.

And DiM there are about 20,000 active players, (taken from scoreboard) so you are looking at 2,000 pms to get a 10% opinion of this.

What you could do though which would work is, you have 80 pages about of scores, so if you sent 10-25 per page, you would then get a pretty good spread of what people think of this map. And then could work out what ranks would think this was a good map.

read my previous post

actually there are only close to 20,000 active players on CC. remove all those with less than 10 games played and i think the figure will be something like 15,000. i say asking 1000 people is doable and rather representative for CC. or at least it's a hell of a lot more opinions than the foundry ever got and ever will

i don't think this kind of survey is necessary. the foundry as been proved wrong on several occasions and this would be the same. people said AoM is too complicated and too far away from the risk concept to be a success and yet it is played. but the best example is doodle earth. read the dozens of pages of bickering and the harsh words that were said and yet doodle is the most successful map ever produced here.

[firstholliday]

this got me thinking.... what about a monopoly risk game?