JUSTICE? or GREED?

[Guiscard]

No, jay is sort of a neutral observer so far, but Nate is neck deep in quicksand for claiming that disturbing a funeral and being offensive to those who are in mourning is free speech and should be allowed. Even though he didn't say he agrees with their opinions.

I'm fairly sure Jay is in the shit too for reacting to it... Not wanting to fine the church as much as possible smacks of a certain sympathy.

[Frigidus]

No, jay is sort of a neutral observer so far, but Nate is neck deep in quicksand for claiming that disturbing a funeral and being offensive to those who are in mourning is free speech and should be allowed. Even though he didn't say he agrees with their opinions.

I'm fairly sure Jay is in the shit too for reacting to it... Not wanting to fine the church as much as possible smacks of a certain sympathy.

I dunno, I mean sure they're hate-mongering, unsympathetic, bible-thumping...anyways, they're still people and 11 is a lot of millions. Hopefully it will just bankrupt this particular sect but I have a feeling that somehow the protesters will be in debt for a while.

[Guiscard]

No, jay is sort of a neutral observer so far, but Nate is neck deep in quicksand for claiming that disturbing a funeral and being offensive to those who are in mourning is free speech and should be allowed. Even though he didn't say he agrees with their opinions.

I'm fairly sure Jay is in the shit too for reacting to it... Not wanting to fine the church as much as possible smacks of a certain sympathy.

I dunno, I mean sure they're hate-mongering, unsympathetic, bible-thumping...anyways, they're still people and 11 is a lot of millions. Hopefully it will just bankrupt this particular sect but I have a feeling that somehow the protesters will be in debt for a while.

They didn't have to pay it all. It was a deterrent ruling.

[Frigidus]

No, jay is sort of a neutral observer so far, but Nate is neck deep in quicksand for claiming that disturbing a funeral and being offensive to those who are in mourning is free speech and should be allowed. Even though he didn't say he agrees with their opinions.

I'm fairly sure Jay is in the shit too for reacting to it... Not wanting to fine the church as much as possible smacks of a certain sympathy.

I dunno, I mean sure they're hate-mongering, unsympathetic, bible-thumping...anyways, they're still people and 11 is a lot of millions. Hopefully it will just bankrupt this particular sect but I have a feeling that somehow the protesters will be in debt for a while.

They didn't have to pay it all. It was a deterrent ruling.

Ah. Part of me feels that justice isn't fully served until the father gets to give at least one of the defendants a good punch in the jaw...of course that's the sort of thinking that the church members were using.

[Nobunaga]

... Think about it.... You've a son (if not, imagine you do)... He goes off to fight in a war (good war, bad war.. no matter, he's just doing his job)...

... Your son gets blown up by an IED, or shot, and now he's dead...

... You only bury him once, and that memory is going to stick with you until you go to your own grave. ...

... And these sh*ts show up shouting, "He deserved what he got!"

... 11 million isn't enough.

...

[muy_thaiguy]

I'm so glad that people ignored my last comment.

[jay_a2j]

... Think about it.... You've a son (if not, imagine you do)... He goes off to fight in a war (good war, bad war.. no matter, he's just doing his job)...

... Your son gets blown up by an IED, or shot, and now he's dead...

... You only bury him once, and that memory is going to stick with you until you go to your own grave. ...

... And these sh*ts show up shouting, "He deserved what he got!"

... 11 million isn't enough.

...

*maintaining my neutrality*


That's why I say arrest them for disturbing the peace or invasion of privacy. Fine the "church" by all means...but 11 million is excessive... deterrent or not. And I see Nate's point of freedom of speech. Although in reality we have limited freedom of speech. We can't yell "fire!" in a movie theater, we can't yell "bomb!" on an airplane. We can't call up our local police station and say, "Go to hell!" So yes, out freedom of speech is limited.

[vtmarik]

*maintaining my neutrality*


That's why I say arrest them for disturbing the peace or invasion of privacy. Fine the "church" by all means...but 11 million is excessive... deterrent or not. And I see Nate's point of freedom of speech. Although in reality we have limited freedom of speech. We can't yell "fire!" in a movie theater, we can't yell "bomb!" on an airplane. We can't call up our local police station and say, "Go to hell!" So yes, out freedom of speech is limited.

It's not limited speech. If you yell fire and there is no fire, that's a lie and lying is a sin, right? Not only that, but it will cause a panic and can be considered inciting a riot. If anyone gets trampled and dies then you are responsible for the death, not the crowd running away from the imagined fire. Your right to free speech ends at the other guy's right to feel secure in his person.

These people were sued and they lost, they were given a severe boot to the head as a way of saying "Don't do this here again."

If you were attending the funeral of a very important person in your life and some group was waving flags and chanting about how they deserved to die for whatever reason, I'm certain you would want to extract your pound of flesh as well.

The fact is they weren't arrested, they were sued by a private citizen. The jury in the case awarded 11 million.

The question "Is it justice?" is moot simply because this is a dispute between a citizen and a "church" done in the setting of a court proceeding. If this were a criminal case, then it would probably be considered excessive. However, 12 people decided that this was a just amount and so it is therefore just. That's how jury cases work.

Don't like it? Write your congressman and ask them to back legislation that creates a cap on amounts you can win in a lawsuit.

[MeDeFe]

Speaking of boots to the head...
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vFldBVWFgWo

[Iliad]

I'm not saying what they did was right, I'm saying that unless they are inciting or participating in violence, what they are doing is considered, legally, speech. Punishing them for speech makes me question how much "freedom of speech" this country allows.

Freedom of speech is a right but it's also a responsibility:
You can't spot swear words at a five-year old kid for half an hour for example
Or not let anyone sleep in an entire street.

What those christians did was unacceptable.

[MR. Nate]

First, I'd like to distance myself from the offending parties.

I think when Jesus said "Mourn with those who mourn" he really meant it, and I think that anyone who takes his words seriously should abide by that. In addition, anything that indicates that God hates a group of people is patently false. "God loves the World" is pretty clear. I think what the people did was horrible, offensive and mean, I'm just not entirely sure it was illegal.

It seems to me that freedom of speech means you can say anything you want in the public sphere. I don't know where these speeches occurred, but if it was in public space, they shouldn't be fined because that's their right as American citizens. Of course if, say GLAAD decided to picket in front of their church wearing shirts that say "Jesus loves me" than that would be protected speech as well.

I guess I'm hesitant to give the government the right to say to anyone "You can't say that, it's offensive."

[Guiscard]

First, I'd like to distance myself from the offending parties.

I think when Jesus said "Mourn with those who mourn" he really meant it, and I think that anyone who takes his words seriously should abide by that. In addition, anything that indicates that God hates a group of people is patently false. "God loves the World" is pretty clear. I think what the people did was horrible, offensive and mean, I'm just not entirely sure it was illegal.

It seems to me that freedom of speech means you can say anything you want in the public sphere. I don't know where these speeches occurred, but if it was in public space, they shouldn't be fined because that's their right as American citizens. Of course if, say GLAAD decided to picket in front of their church wearing shirts that say "Jesus loves me" than that would be protected speech as well.

I guess I'm hesitant to give the government the right to say to anyone "You can't say that, it's offensive."

So then can you follow around a black man shouting racist abuse at him? As long as you're in public thats fine, right?

They were shouting abuse at someones funeral. I don't think there'd have been a problem (or at least a legal case) if they'd just protested peacefully. Thats why they have legal distances from which to picket, so that they can have freedom of expression.

[luns101]

It's not limited speech. If you yell fire and there is no fire, that's a lie and lying is a sin, right? Not only that, but it will cause a panic and can be considered inciting a riot. If anyone gets trampled and dies then you are responsible for the death, not the crowd running away from the imagined fire. Your right to free speech ends at the other guy's right to feel secure in his person.

These people were sued and they lost, they were given a severe boot to the head as a way of saying "Don't do this here again."

The fact is they weren't arrested, they were sued by a private citizen. The jury in the case awarded 11 million.

The question "Is it justice?" is moot simply because this is a dispute between a citizen and a "church" done in the setting of a court proceeding. If this were a criminal case, then it would probably be considered excessive. However, 12 people decided that this was a just amount and so it is therefore just. That's how jury cases work.

I just brought these points out to my political science class last night. Freedom of speech protects us from the state...you can go around saying "I hate the government" all you want. You cross the line when your speech starts to become defaming (either through slander or libel) towards another individual.

I watched the interview last night on the O'Reilly Factor with the father of the slain Marine and he said his intent was to financially cripple Westboro to the point where they don't have the means to defame anyone else.

[got tonkaed]

I dont think this has been brought up in the thread yet, but the Westboro group has been getting a fair amount of notoriety in recent history and there have been some pretty cool response groups that have come as a result. Theres one group called the freedom riders, who basically ride motorcycles to places where Westboro group goes, and the stand between the protestors and the funeral (because theres usually some distance away that protesting occurs) essentially blocking them out. They basically travel around with them and in some cases can limit some of the more noticable effect. They are the only group, but they are one that i remember.

Hopefully as Westboro gets more media attention (which they undoubtedly will) some of these people who out of their own voilition are attempting to maintain some respect for these families will get a little bit of attention as well.

[MR. Nate]

So then can you follow around a black man shouting racist abuse at him? As long as you're in public thats fine, right?

They were shouting abuse at someones funeral. I don't think there'd have been a problem (or at least a legal case) if they'd just protested peacefully. Thats why they have legal distances from which to picket, so that they can have freedom of expression.

There is certainly legal precedent against harassment, libel & slander, inciting violence, inciting riots and personal threats. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about their right to express their views publicly. There is a line between private and public space. In public space, anyone is free to share their views. I don't know where funerals fall, but it seems that in regulating protests the government is dancing with regulating free speech. I know that it was ruled that hate speech by Nazi's (as offensive as that is to all of us) is protected speech. I just wonder if the government is more opposed to this because it's not about race, it's about their war.

[jay_a2j]

Wow...this would be funny if it weren't so sad.

[urlhttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5460348305587777569&q=Westboro+church&total=528&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0[/url]

[jay_a2j]

Wow...this would be funny if it weren't so sad...

Westboro "church"

[got tonkaed]

i really think the westboro group gives outsiders an interesting oppertunity. Typically we dont have groups which are violating the societal norms so widely, especially under religious auspicies. Its an interesting mental exercise to try and understand why (outside of religious expression) they are doing what they are doing. There are a lot of folk theories you can make out of society when you bring up groups like this one.

[Anarkistsdream]

I live in Oklahoma...

These guys are constantly here.

I also have relatives in Topeka, so I have seen them at their homebase. I can't stand them, no one else can. They call other Christians sinners and heretics.

I have been in shouting matches with them before.

If I could get away with it, I would punch each one of them in the face for what they are teaching their children.

They are bastards, and anybody on thier side for ANY reason is someone whom I can not respect.

[muy_thaiguy]

I dont think this has been brought up in the thread yet, but the Westboro group has been getting a fair amount of notoriety in recent history and there have been some pretty cool response groups that have come as a result. Theres one group called the freedom riders, who basically ride motorcycles to places where Westboro group goes, and the stand between the protestors and the funeral (because theres usually some distance away that protesting occurs) essentially blocking them out. They basically travel around with them and in some cases can limit some of the more noticable effect. They are the only group, but they are one that i remember.

Hopefully as Westboro gets more media attention (which they undoubtedly will) some of these people who out of their own voilition are attempting to maintain some respect for these families will get a little bit of attention as well.

Actually, I mentioned something like this on the first page. But no one seemed to notice it.

[got tonkaed]

I live in Oklahoma...

These guys are constantly here.

I also have relatives in Topeka, so I have seen them at their homebase. I can't stand them, no one else can. They call other Christians sinners and heretics.

I have been in shouting matches with them before.

If I could get away with it, I would punch each one of them in the face for what they are teaching their children.

They are bastards, and anybody on thier side for ANY reason is someone whom I can not respect.

id think they would be quite a nuisance to be around a lot of the time. We get a fair amount of people who come to campus and damn everyone to hell and they usually get a pretty decent size crowd of people, but by the end of the day people are usually pretty upset/pissed. They dont come by all that often though, i cant imagine having them around a lot though.

[Tyr]

regardless of any politics or wars a man lost his son and its plain not right to f*ck with him while he burys his son. end of story.