Religions : do they preach peace and tolerance

[ignotus]

"ACCEPIT PANEM IN MANUS SUAS, FREGIT, DEDITQUE DISCIPULIS SUIS DICENS "HIC EST CORPUS MEUM QUOD PRO VOBIS TRADETUR, HOC FACITE IM=N MEAM COMMERATIONEM"

Can you keep that in the german forum please?

This is Latin...

Transformation (I don't know how you call it in English) of bread.

Sursum corda!

[Napoleon Ier]

"ACCEPIT PANEM IN MANUS SUAS, FREGIT, DEDITQUE DISCIPULIS SUIS DICENS "HIC EST CORPUS MEUM QUOD PRO VOBIS TRADETUR, HOC FACITE IM=N MEAM COMMERATIONEM"

Can you keep that in the german forum please?

This is Latin...

Transformation (I don't know how you call it in English) of bread.

Sursum corda!

The reformationist lobotomization for transformation of the populace into ignorant succubi is all but complete...

NON PRAEVALEBUNT!!!X

[Stopper]

"ACCEPIT PANEM IN MANUS SUAS, FREGIT, DEDITQUE DISCIPULIS SUIS DICENS "HIC EST CORPUS MEUM QUOD PRO VOBIS TRADETUR, HOC FACITE IM=N MEAM COMMERATIONEM"

Can you keep that in the german forum please?

This is Latin...

Transformation (I don't know how you call it in English) of bread.

Sursum corda!

The reformationist lobotomization for transformation of the populace into ignorant succubi is all but complete...

NON PRAEVALEBUNT!!!X

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that the Germanic-language-speaking 2dimes knew it wasn't German when he said that, you Romance/Slav-spouting tosspots.

[Jehan]

Why believe the Bible...? Council of Nicea decided for you whats scripture.


Sola Scriptura doesn't work. Why join some organization? Because Christ founded it and declared "non praevalebunt". Also because I believe that the Holy Catholic Church is God's Church, reffered to in the Bible. And its declarations are as valid as the Word of God.


As forhistory, you cant judge a religion on its past. Lutherans murdered Catholics.Read English history 1558-1753. I dont use that as an argument against hem. Besides, most of the things Catholicism is accused of are made up by the Free Masons in league with the protestant heretics

Just NB, because ill probably make sme insulting remarks :
Im notinsulting you. Protestanism is stupid. You are obviously (based on your posts) not. Aquinas says the Faith doesn't come to us through intelligence, so at no point do I insult you.

Can't judge a religion by its past? I can, and i don't see any organized "Chistian" denomination that i would join - based on their corrupt past histories. I see perfection in the scriptures and imperfection in power hungry organizations - especially the Roman Catholic church, whose history is so bloody and corrupt that only an idiot (or someone simply following what his parents told him to) would believe that God has anything whatsoever to do with it. Go figure.

then what part do you thnk the bride of Christ has to play in all of this?

I think its fair to say no religion practised by humans remains true to its Holy writings, for example the bible should predict that all man should fail at being the church that we are called to be, i think if you want to see if a religion is violent inherently you really need to look at the texts itself, for Christianity you must look at the New Testament, not to say we don't read the old, the new covenant is the completion of the old, but it is not the same as it. Could someone who has read the Qu'ran tell me if it contains passages which would result in people being violent? I think in the bibles case there is no getting past the verse, "love your enemy as yourself, do good to those who hurt you", The most important commandment is to Love God and to Love people, which are intrinsically linked, and "What you do to the least of these, you do unto me" Christ. If anyone interprets the Bible in such a way as to believe that violence and hatred are right then i would know that they are interpreting it incorrectly, because of these verses.

[ignotus]

"ACCEPIT PANEM IN MANUS SUAS, FREGIT, DEDITQUE DISCIPULIS SUIS DICENS "HIC EST CORPUS MEUM QUOD PRO VOBIS TRADETUR, HOC FACITE IM=N MEAM COMMERATIONEM"

Can you keep that in the german forum please?

This is Latin...

Transformation (I don't know how you call it in English) of bread.

Sursum corda!

The reformationist lobotomization for transformation of the populace into ignorant succubi is all but complete...

NON PRAEVALEBUNT!!!X

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that the Germanic-language-speaking 2dimes knew it wasn't German when he said that, you Romance/Slav-spouting tosspots.

Maybe you're right.

Ceterum censeo Stopper esse delendam!

[Napoleon Ier]

transubstantiation (transformation of the bread), or for a Lutheran consubstantiation (note there is an important theological deifferemce in these terms).

ecclesia anglicana delenda est!

[Stopper]

Maybe you're right.

I really think I am, you know. It's a bit too easy and obvious.

Ceterum censeo Stopper esse delendam!

Keep that destroying me stuff to Flame Wars, or I'll call the mods. In the morning. Maybe, if I feel like it.

[b.k. barunt]

Morde Manubrium Meum.


Honibaz

[ignotus]

Maybe you're right.

I really think I am, you know. It's a bit too easy and obvious.

Ceterum censeo Stopper esse delendam!

Keep that destroying me stuff to Flame Wars, or I'll call the mods. In the morning. Maybe, if I feel like it.

Maybe...


Mea Culpa!

[luns101]

Opposed Hitler? I must have missed something. First of all, Pope Pius sanctioned Mussolini's invasion of Ethiopia in the beginning stages of the war, and Hitler had an official concordat with the Vatican throughout the war. Also, after the war, the top Nazis who escaped into South America (like Josef Mengele) did so by way of what is now historically known as the "Vatican Ratlines".

I'm not refuting that there were rats within the Catholic Church during that time, but as far as Pius is concerned, he did whatever he could to oppose Nazism without having Hitler directly attack him.

"The election of Cardinal Pacelli is not accepted with favor in Germany because he was always opposed to Nazism." - (Berliner Morganpost,) March 3, 1939. Nazi Germany was the only major European nation that did not send a representative to Pius XII's papal coronation ceremonies.

Hitler made an attempt to prevent the new pope from maintaining the anti-Nazi stance he had taken before his election. Hitler sent Joachim von Ribbentrop, to try to dissuade Pius XII from following anti-Nazi policies. "Von Ribbentrop, granted a formal audience on March 11, 1940, went into a lengthy harangue on the invincibility of the Third Reich, the inevitability of a Nazi victory, and the futility of papal alignment with the enemies of the Fuehrer. Pius XII heard Von Ribbentrop out politely and impassively. Then he opened an enormous ledger on his desk and, in his perfect German, began to recite a catalogue of the persecutions inflicted by the Third Reich in Poland, listing the date, place, and precise details of each crime. The audience was terminated; the Pope's position was clearly unshakable" (Graham's, Pius XII and the Holocaust, p.107).

The Vatican signed that concordant so they could stay open and act as a refuge for persecuted Jews & Christians during the war. Pius also knew Hitler had the power to shut off power to Vatican Radio had he opposed the Nazis openly. Had he directly attacked Hitler verbally, it could have lead to the closing of the one institution that harbored refugees. "Concentration camp prisoners didn't want Pius to speak out publicly" - (Three Popes & the Jews, Pinchas E. Lapide, pg. 247). As one jurist from the Nuremberg Trials said on WNBC in New York (Feb. 28, 1964), "Any words of Pius XII, directed against a madman like Hitler, would have brought on an even worse catastrophe... [and] accelerated the massacre of Jews and priests." (also pg. 247 of Lapide's Three Popes & the Jews)

To further this point...According to The 1996 Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia (V8.01) under Pius XII, "Wishing to preserve Vatican neutrality, fearing reprisals, and realizing his impotence to stop the Holocaust, Pius nonetheless acted on an individual basis to save many Jews and others with church ransoms, documents, and asylum."

Under Pius' leadership 860,000 Jews were saved from the Holocaust. "whosoever preserves one life, it is accounted to him by Scripture as if he had preserved a whole world." - Jewish Talmud. By this standard, Pius XII deserves a memorial forest of 860,000 trees in the Judean hills (The Church Did Not Keep Silent, Jenoe Levai, pp. 268-9).

Pius spoke out against the Nazis in two consecutive Christmas speeches (1941 & 1942). He didn't refer to them directly by name in order to save lives, but people of that time knew who he was talking about. Let's see how the N.Y. Times editorial page viewed his stance...

1941: "The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas... he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all... the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism... he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace." - N.Y. Times, Dec. 25, 1941, p. 20

1942: "This Christmas more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent... Pope Pius expresses as passionately as any leader on our side the war aims of the struggle for freedom when he says that those who aim at building a new world must fight for free choice of government and religious order. They must refuse that the state should make of individuals a herd of whom the state disposes as if they were lifeless things." - N.Y. Times, Dec. 25, 1942, p. 10 [Late Edition]

The Nazi reaction to Pius' 1942 speech: "In a manner never known before...the Pope has repudiated the National Socialist New European Order. His radio allocution was a masterpiece of clerical falsification of the National Socialist world-view....His speech is one long attack on everything we stand for....God, he says, regards all peoples and races as worthy of the same consideration. Here he is clearly speaking on behalf of Jews....That this speech is directed exclusively against the New Order in Europe as seen in National Socialism is clear in the papal statement that mankind owes a debt to "all who during the war have lost their Fatherland and who, although personally blameless, have simply on account of their nationality and origin, been killed or reduced to utter distinction." Here he is virtually accusing the German people of injustice toward the Jews, and makes himself the mouthpiece of the Jewish war criminals"(The Vatican in the Age of Dictators, Anthony Rhodes: 1922-1945,1973, Holt, Rinehart, and Winston, pp. 272-273).

Individuals thankful for Catholic assistance (under Pius' leadership) against Hitler:

"Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly." - Albert Einstein, TIME Magazine, December 23, 1940.

"Much could be written on the Pontiff's encouragement of the Vatican's important work for refugees and war prisoners and of the support he gave to the Vatican's campaign to save Italian art and cultural treasures from destruction. No Pope could have done more along the simple lines of charity and helpfulness than Pius XII....The Vatican's population grew, for in that period under the Pope's direction the Holy See did an extraordinary job of sheltering and championing the victims of the Nazi-Fascist regime, I have spoken to dozens of Jews, who owe their liberty and perhaps their lives to the protection of the Church....Through all the worldly strife, and the new and difficult burdens laid upon him by this war, the Pope's role has remained what it always has been and what he chose that it should be--that of peacemaker and conciliator." - Herbert Matthews, N.Y. Times, October 15, 1944.

The charity and work of Pope Pius XII during World War II so impressed the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, that in 1944 he became Catholic. As his baptismal name, he took the same one Pius had, Eugenio, as his own. Later Israel Eugenio Zolli wrote a book entitled, Why I Became a Catholic.

"We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII...During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people passed through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims." - Golda Meir, Eulogy for Pius XII after his death on October 9, 1958.

However, even if what you say is true, it certainly would not wipe out over a thousand years of murder, torture, etc.

No, it wouldn't. But it does soundly refute the idea that the Catholic Church is the most evil organization to befoul this earth.

You claim to be somewhat well versed in history -

Nope. I have a degree in History/Social Science so I know just enough to be dangerous.

maybe you've heard of Will Durant? Durant said that "Pope Innocent III killed more Christians in his inquisitions in one year, than all ten of the Roman emperors who persecuted the early church."

Yeah, I've heard this. Will Durant represents the anti-Catholic bias in historical analysis that was also reflected legislatively with the Blaine Amendments of the 1870's and then later Arch Everson in 1947 in our country. Now those events have come back to haunt Protestants. I also know that the Scientology cultist L. Ron Hubbard based some of his theories on Durant's work. However, Innocent III & others committed atrocities that can't be ignored. I would never join the Catholic Church.

But hey, like John Wayne Gacy (the sodomizing killer clown) said "I've done a lot of bad things, but i've done some good things too."

Any organization or church is going to have hypocrites. You and I are hypocrites. The entire world is full of hypocrites. It is quite a stretch though to claim the Catholic Church is the most evil organization ever. I was involved in trying to help victims of the recent SoCal fires. I noticed that we weren't the only ones. Catholic Charities was helping out too. A far cry from the most evil organization to ever befoul the world.

[b.k. barunt]

Quite a lot of googling there to exonerate old Pius luns, i'm wondering about your motives there. Maybe you could explain the atrocities in Croatia that were perpetrated by the Catholic church during the war? 2 things you didn't reply to were Pius sanctioning Mussolini's invasion of Ethiopia, and the use of the Vatican Ratlines to funnel scores of Nazi war criminals to safety in South America.
So Will Durant is an anti-Catholic propagandist? What facts did he falsify? You take up a lot of space without really addressing anything. I mentioned this argument to an Israeli friend of mine, and he said that the Israeli government has repeatedly petitioned the Vatican to admit to and apologize for their part in the Holocaust, to no avail. Now you tell me that they helped 860,000 Jews escape the Holocaust, and have a forest in Israel planted in their honor. I can't wait to hear his response to that.
Read your history books - if you don't like Durant, go somewhere else, then explain away the murderous crusades, the genocide against the Albigensians, the Waldensians, the Cathars, the French Huegenots, etc.
If the Roman Catholic church is not the most evil organization, what's your pick in it's place? Put Stalin, Mao, and Hitler together and you're still going to come up way short on the body count.
As to hypocrisy, speak for yourself. I make no claims to follow Jesus, and if i did i wouldn't defend an organization that murdered millions of His followers, and made it an offence punishable by death to have a copy of the scriptures in the common language.
I live in southern Louisiana, which has a large Catholic population. We have what i'm sure you would refer to as a "slight" problem, i.e. altar boys being molested by their priests. When the parents go to the higher ups (usually the bishop of the parish) the priest is simply moved to another parish - without letting any of the parents in that parish know that there is a "former" child molester in their midst, so the process repeats itself again and again. None of these priests have been defrocked by the church, and parents who raise a fuss about it are castigated for "bringing shame upon the Holy Church". What's your slant on this? If you give me some tripe about how their charity work cancels it out, i'll give you my answer in advance - take your mealy mouthed hypocrisy and go f*ck thyself.

[luns101]

Quite a lot of research there to exonerate old Pius luns, i'm wondering about your motives there. Maybe you could explain the atrocities in Croatia that were perpetrated by the Catholic church during the war? 2 things you didn't reply to were Pius sanctioning Mussolini's invasion of Ethiopia, and the use of the Vatican Ratlines to funnel scores of Nazi war criminals to safety in South America.

Those are the facts, bk. Perhaps you misunderstood why I posted all that. Let me repeat..."I will never join the Catholic Church". The Catholic Church has committed many atrocities, but they are not the worst organization to ever exist. That's just silly. I've had my share of arguments with Catholics about the atrocities they've committed...most recently the child sex abuse scandals. They've even lost some of their property up in Canada as a consequence of trying to cover it up.

I did address your point on the sanctioning of Mussolini's invasion. He did so in order to get Hitler off his back so Vatican Radio wouldn't be shut down and they could still shelter refugees.

So Will Durant is an anti-Catholic propagandist? What facts did he falsify? You take up a lot of space without really addressing anything.

Never said he was a propagandist. I never disputed his facts. What I dispute is an anti-Catholic interpretation of those facts. The United States has traditionally engaged in this and you know that. Why do you think the election of Kennedy was such a big deal?

I mentioned this argument to an Israeli friend of mine, and he said that the Israeli government has repeatedly petitioned the Vatican to admit to and apologize for their part in the Holocaust, to no avail. Now you tell me that they helped 860,000 Jews escape the Holocaust, and have a forest in Israel planted in their honor. I can't wait to hear his response to that.

Make sure you also tell him The New York Times issued several stories which told of the countless number of praises that Jewish leaders bestowed upon Pius XII. An October 11, 1945 article reported that the World Jewish Congress gave a gift of $20,000 to the Vatican "in recognition of the work of the Holy See in rescuing Jews from Fascist and Nazi persecution." If he wants to blame the Catholic Church nobody can stop him, but it wouldn't be justified.

Read your history books - if you don't like Durant, go somewhere else, then explain away the murderous crusades, the genocide against the Albigensians, the Waldensians, the Cathars, the French Huegenots, etc.

I thought I made it clear that the Catholic Church is not innocent in other areas. What I'm disputing with you is Pius' role during WWII. I think the fact that I quoted sources other than Durant prove that I do read history books.

If the Roman Catholic church is not the most evil organization, what's your pick in it's place? Put Stalin, Mao, and Hitler together and you're still going to come up way short on the body count.

Despite your objections, I would say that's a pretty good group of people to put up there along with Pol Pot, Ruhollah Khomeni, Robespierre, and Hirohito.

As to hypocrisy, speak for yourself. I make no claims to follow Jesus, and if i did i wouldn't defend an organization that murdered millions of His followers, and made it an offence punishable by death to have a copy of the scriptures in the common language.

That wasn't my point and I believe you know that. Every single person who has ever lived has been a hypocrite at some point in their life. It's the human condition. Yeah, you're just like every other human being, bk.

I live in southern Louisiana, which has a large Catholic population. We have what i'm sure you would refer to as a "slight" problem, i.e. altar boys being molested by their priests. When the parents go to the higher ups (usually the bishop of the parish) the priest is simply moved to another parish - without letting any of the parents in that parish know that there is a "former" child molester in their midst, so the process repeats itself again and again. None of these priests have been defrocked by the church, and parents who raise a fuss about it are castigated for "bringing shame upon the Holy Church". What's your slant on this? If you give me some tripe about how their charity work cancels it out, i'll give you my answer in advance - take your mealy mouthed hypocrisy and go f*ck thyself.

I say lock these guys up, prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. They deserve the consequences of their behavior. You can swear up a storm for all I care. It's not going to affect my views.

[b.k. barunt]

Again you dodge the main question - what would you say is the most vile organization on this planet, if it's not the Roman Catholic church? Or hell, just give me one that's worse, and your reasons. I think we've finally cleared the bullshit out of the way now - you either put up or shut up on this one. On my pick we have the inquisitions, the crusades, torture, rape, child molesting - tell you what, try googling "Catholic Atrocities", and maybe this argument will end early.

[luns101]

I guess I'll post this again then.

If the Roman Catholic church is not the most evil organization, what's your pick in it's place? Put Stalin, Mao, and Hitler together and you're still going to come up way short on the body count.

Despite your objections, I would say that's a pretty good group of people to put up there along with Pol Pot, Ruhollah Khomeni, Robespierre, and Hirohito.

[b.k. barunt]

I guess i'll post this again - what organization (although Innocent III killed more with his inquisitions than any of those individuals)? Also, the individuals you named are all dead and gone - what organization is more evil than the Roman Catholic church? Please don't say the Democratic party, as my head will explode.

[luns101]

I guess i'll post this again - what organization (although Innocent III killed more with his inquisitions than any of those individuals)? Also, the individuals you named are all dead and gone - what organization is more evil than the Roman Catholic church? Please don't say the Democratic party, as my head will explode.

I can't rank the most evil organizations or give you a top ten list. However, I'm comfortable not labeling the Catholic Church as the "most evil to befoul the earth". If that were true then nobody would be staying with them or even joining them. You'll never catch me being one of their members but you also won't find me grabbing the kids and heading for the hills when I see a Catholic priest.

The Catholic Church is the same organization that produced Innocent III and other arrogant leaders which killed many. It also produced St. Francis & Mother Theresa. It's the organization which produced the Inquisition, yet tried to save Jews during WWII. There are priests which molest children and others who help fire victims. Each individual within the Catholic Church will be judged according to their crime.

I would never say the Democratic Party is the most evil, lol. Everyone knows it's actually Microsoft & Bill Gates.

[Napoleon Ier]

As I keep saying, obviously to no effect, it doesn't matter there are evil people inthe Church (theologically that is) because, as humans, they sin. Its natural. But look at the Church's preachings themselves, and you'll find that there are no doctrines that would support murderous or pedophilic (a certain other religion's prohet comes to mind )

Protestant sects have commited equally atrocious crimes, but havebeen in existance far less.

[luns101]

Protestant sects have commited equally atrocious crimes, but havebeen in existance far less.

Yes, the Southern Baptists come to mind right off the top of my head.

[Napoleon Ier]

Protestant sects have commited equally atrocious crimes, but havebeen in existance far less.

Yes, the Southern Baptists come to mind right off the top of my head.

Besides we have mr. eko.
how can we be evil?

[b.k. barunt]

Who the hell is mr. eko?

[luns101]

Who the hell is mr. eko?

I think he's talking about Mr. Eko from LOST. Since my avatar is the character John Locke I think he's making fun of the show.

-EDIT-

Mr. Eko was a Nigerian drug lord who pretended to be a Catholic priest in order to avoid being arrested. On the island, he has this big club which he beats people with and in between fighting he inscribes Bible verses on the club.

Here he is with his "Jesus Club"...Convert or Die!

[Iz Man]

I think he's talking about Mr. Eko from LOST. Since my avatar is the character John Locke I think he's making fun of the show.

I've wondered who that was in your avatar. Never seen the show.....

Now I know.

[Napoleon Ier]

Who the hell is mr. eko?

I think he's talking about Mr. Eko from LOST. Since my avatar is the character John Locke I think he's making fun of the show.

-EDIT-

Mr. Eko was a Nigerian drug lord who pretended to be a Catholic priest in order to avoid being arrested. On the island, he has this big club which he beats people with and in between fighting he inscribes Bible verses on the club.

Here he is with his "Jesus Club"...Convert or Die!

Make fun of Lost?

Although it will never parrallel 24 (the other american show I watch) I do enjoy a bit of pulp mythology every now and again.

[unriggable]

As I keep saying, obviously to no effect, it doesn't matter there are evil people inthe Church (theologically that is) because, as humans, they sin. Its natural. But look at the Church's preachings themselves, and you'll find that there are no doctrines that would support murderous or pedophilic (a certain other religion's prohet comes to mind )

You're just jay with a new shiney trenchcoat on. Anybody who owned the Quran would know that Mohammed didn't molest children...

Protestant sects have commited equally atrocious crimes, but havebeen in existance far less.

You really like to downsize xianity, don't you?

[Napoleon Ier]

You're comment about downsizing...affine, I dont understand. The word "sect" isn't meant pejoratively.

As for being jay...well, I like Ron Paul and Deep Southern America. That said, I dont know jay that well.

I own and have readd a Qu'uran. Mohammad had a wife, Aisha, he married when she was 6.

isha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad. She stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, when the marriage was consummated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Marriage_to_Muhammad

Solution to the Islamic problem?


And this time, all the way to Mecca.