flat earth vs ""'science'""

[heavycola]

Job 38:13-14 "Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; that it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Matthew 4:8 "The devil took him to a very high mountain and displayed before him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence..."

Deuteronomy 13:7 - 'from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth'

There is NO PROOF that the earth is round, and anyone who asserts otherwise is a communist and very possibly unpatriotic.

this post brought to you by the lame passive-aggressive dept

What was the purpose of you posting this, heavycola? Were you trying to imply that most Christians believed in a flat earth and that we are anti-science? The Flat Earth Society is a cult not recognized by almost all Christian bodies.

Not at all, of course i don't think christians believe in a flat earth! I know most of you are not that enlightened J/K
I was just pointing out that the flat earth hypothesis has some support from whoever wrote the bible.

Jay - you have said over and over that the bible is god's inerrant word. So how you can deny the truth of a flat earth is beyond me.

Natali - you make a good point about uniform motion. You're lucky we don't burn people at the stake anymore.

[jay_a2j]

Yet another case as twisting, misunderstanding and blatantly misleading statements by those who do not even understand the difference between the Bible and the "Church". They are not one and the same. The Bible is the Word of God and the Church can be two things......a) the people who attend mass, service etc. in/or a building. b) The body of believers. What the "Church" did in the 1400's has NO bearing on what the Bible says!

I gotta stop coming into these threads.

[heavycola]

Yet another case as twisting, misunderstanding and blatantly misleading statements by those who do not even understand the difference between the Bible and the "Church". They are not one and the same. The Bible is the Word of God and the Church can be two things......a) the people who attend mass, service etc. in/or a building. b) The body of believers. What the "Church" did in the 1400's has NO bearing on what the Bible says!

I gotta stop coming into these threads.

Not sure why you posted this. All I was saying was that the bible contains references - some spoken by God himself - to a flat earth. This is a fact.

[jay_a2j]

Yet another case as twisting, misunderstanding and blatantly misleading statements by those who do not even understand the difference between the Bible and the "Church". They are not one and the same. The Bible is the Word of God and the Church can be two things......a) the people who attend mass, service etc. in/or a building. b) The body of believers. What the "Church" did in the 1400's has NO bearing on what the Bible says!

I gotta stop coming into these threads.

Not sure why you posted this. All I was saying was that the bible contains references - some spoken by God himself - to a flat earth. This is a fact.

No it doesn't. But believe whatever you want heavy. That's why we have free will.

[heavycola]

Job 38:13-14 "Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; that it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Matthew 4:8 "The devil took him to a very high mountain and displayed before him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence..."

Deuteronomy 13:7 - 'from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth'

That's god speasking in that first quote. How can a globe have ends to hold onto? You are denying the truth, jay.

[jay_a2j]

Job 38:13-14 "Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; that it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Matthew 4:8 "The devil took him to a very high mountain and displayed before him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence..."

Deuteronomy 13:7 - 'from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth'

That's god speasking in that first quote. How can a globe have ends to hold onto? You are denying the truth, jay.

Now why would God who created the Earth state that it is somehow flat? The phrase "to the ends of the Earth" is an expression, meaning whole Earth. I know you know this but you just have to pick...and pick and pick.
Also be aware that what you stated is the English translation. I do not know what the original writing actually says. Do you?

[lalaland]

i almost joined the flat earth society to find out who made it up... im sure they dont believe any of it any more than i do.


the world is round... deal with it.

[heavycola]

Job 38:13-14 "Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; that it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Matthew 4:8 "The devil took him to a very high mountain and displayed before him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence..."

Deuteronomy 13:7 - 'from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth'

That's god speasking in that first quote. How can a globe have ends to hold onto? You are denying the truth, jay.

Now why would God who created the Earth state that it is somehow flat? The phrase "to the ends of the Earth" is an expression, meaning whole Earth. I know you know this but you just have to pick...and pick and pick.
Also be aware that what you stated is the English translation. I do not know what the original writing actually says. Do you?

An 'expression'? A lie, in other words? The earth is a squished globe, it has no ends. But you choose to interpret god's word in your own way. That seems a little arrogant.

[The1exile]

Of course, Illiad and I are talking about ancient history. Modern Church is has gone a long way to become more tolerant towards other people (it is, at present, being run by an ex-Nazi).

While I agree with your other points, the thing about the ex-nazi is wrong.

[Guiscard]

Now why would God who created the Earth state that it is somehow flat? The phrase "to the ends of the Earth" is an expression, meaning whole Earth. I know you know this but you just have to pick...and pick and pick.
Also be aware that what you stated is the English translation. I do not know what the original writing actually says. Do you?

Yes. It means exactly that. I'm afraid, Jay, that the Bible in no way promulgates a spherical earth, but there is more to suggest a flat one (many references to ends, corners, edges and even pillars.)

The traditional religious Hebrew concept, however, disagrees with this. It pictures a flat earth the heavens in a dome shape above it, or so I gather (one of my friends is currently researching religious cosmology).



This idea is based on research both from biblical sources and from other near eastern and Hebrew sources. The Bible very much agrees with this notion and it would be very hard to argue, as you are attempting, that it specifically implies a spherical earth.

A spherical earth was certainly agreed upon as a valid concept from long before the birth of Christianity... the whole Columbus fearing he would sail off the edge of the earth is a load of nonsense. Aristotle proved it, for one, but Hebrew and other ancient near eastern cosmology certainly does not agree with this notion whatsoever.

[mandalorian2298]

Of course, Illiad and I are talking about ancient history. Modern Church is has gone a long way to become more tolerant towards other people (it is, at present, being run by an ex-Nazi).

While I agree with your other points, the thing about the ex-nazi is wrong.

He was a member of Hitler's Youth.

And please don't get me wrong, I have nothing against ex-Nazis. Most people are weak willed sheep who prefer following leaders then to thinking for themselves. Nazism shows that a whole nation can be convinced to follow a hysterical midget who claims to be an arian proto-god or other similar beings. You just have to convince them that other nations are opressing them (or harboring terrorists or whatever), give them shinny uniforms so they can stop developing as persons (which is haaard ) and slowly eliminate their personal and political freedoms. The best part is: after you attack a few countries for the sake of plunder, most of the world really will hate your country.

[Guiscard]

And please don't get me wrong, I have nothing against ex-Nazis. Most people are weak willed sheep who prefer following leaders then to thinking for themselves. Nazism shows that a whole nation can be convinced to follow a hysterical midget who claims to be an arian proto-god or other similar beings. You just have to convince them that other nations are opressing them (or harboring terrorists or whatever), give them shinny uniforms so they can stop developing as persons (which is haaard ) and slowly eliminate their personal and political freedoms. The best part is: after you attack a few countries for the sake of plunder, most of the world really will hate your country.

Being a member of the Hitler Youth didn't exactly make him a Nazi. Membership was compulsory. It had nothing to do with political beliefs, just a desire not to be arrested and possibly hanged (as with those who tried to form alternatives).

[unriggable]

The best part is: after you attack a few countries for the sake of plunder, most of the world really will hate your country.

Hmm, when has that happened recently...

[Snorri1234]

Now why would God who created the Earth state that it is somehow flat? The phrase "to the ends of the Earth" is an expression, meaning whole Earth. I know you know this but you just have to pick...and pick and pick.
Also be aware that what you stated is the English translation. I do not know what the original writing actually says. Do you?

Wait, so when the earth is actually proven a globe you claim it was always written in the bible already? The problem is that you sometimes claim something isn't an expression or a parable, but other times you do, without any actual reason or rhyme to it.

[Guiscard]

Wait, so when the earth is actually proven a globe you claim it was always written in the bible already? The problem is that you sometimes claim something isn't an expression or a parable, but other times you do, without any actual reason or rhyme to it.

QFT x100000

[unriggable]

Now why would God who created the Earth state that it is somehow flat? The phrase "to the ends of the Earth" is an expression, meaning whole Earth. I know you know this but you just have to pick...and pick and pick.
Also be aware that what you stated is the English translation. I do not know what the original writing actually says. Do you?

Wait, so when the earth is actually proven a globe you claim it was always written in the bible already? The problem is that you sometimes claim something isn't an expression or a parable, but other times you do, without any actual reason or rhyme to it.

True, recently some xians claim that some of the bible is sarcastic. "Book of answers" my ass.

[beezer]

Not at all, of course i don't think christians believe in a flat earth! I know most of you are not that enlightened J/K
I was just pointing out that the flat earth hypothesis has some support from whoever wrote the bible.

Ok if you're just joking around then that's fine. But if you honestly believe that the flat earth hypothesis was widely accepted by the Catholic church or other sects of Christianity then you are mistaken. As you probably already know, the Bible is a compilation of books written by different people. None of them believed in a flat earth.

[The1exile]

He was a member of Hitler's Youth.

As guiscard said, probably out of a desire not to be killed.

If it happened to me, I'd probably sign up in order not to get arrested and killed, and then run off as soon as it looked lke I could get away with it.

Oh, wait....

[mandalorian2298]

He was a member of Hitler's Youth.

As guiscard said, probably out of a desire not to be killed.

If it happened to me, I'd probably sign up in order not to get arrested and killed, and then run off as soon as it looked lke I could get away with it.

Oh, wait....

There is always a choice. As Musashi said: "You can abandon your body, but you must perserve your honor." At every moment of every day we are responsible for both our choices and the consequences of those choices.

[got tonkaed]

Not at all, of course i don't think christians believe in a flat earth! I know most of you are not that enlightened J/K
I was just pointing out that the flat earth hypothesis has some support from whoever wrote the bible.

Ok if you're just joking around then that's fine. But if you honestly believe that the flat earth hypothesis was widely accepted by the Catholic church or other sects of Christianity then you are mistaken. As you probably already know, the Bible is a compilation of books written by different people. None of them believed in a flat earth.

theres no evidence at all to suggest that any of the writers of the books of the bible (considering the timeperiod they all lived in (and i mean teh original story tellers, the people involved shall we say)) would believe in anything but a flat earth hypothesis. Frankly the notion that the earth is not flat is a relatively modern invention ( in terms of history that we are discussing here)

ive never come across (and perhaps this is of my own error) any information suggesting anyone in early christianity necessarily believed in round earth, until the ideas were increasingly proposed and accepted much later on. Theres nothing unexpected about that though, it would be no different than a discovery taking place about our world 100 years from now, that the majority of us would know little to nothing of.

[Guiscard]

theres no evidence at all to suggest that any of the writers of the books of the bible (considering the timeperiod they all lived in (and i mean teh original story tellers, the people involved shall we say)) would believe in anything but a flat earth hypothesis. Frankly the notion that the earth is not flat is a relatively modern invention ( in terms of history that we are discussing here)

ive never come across (and perhaps this is of my own error) any information suggesting anyone in early christianity necessarily believed in round earth, until the ideas were increasingly proposed and accepted much later on. Theres nothing unexpected about that though, it would be no different than a discovery taking place about our world 100 years from now, that the majority of us would know little to nothing of.

You are both right and wrong... The idea of a round earth has been around as long as recorded history. Aristotle proved it, pythagoras likely did as well... It was a widely accepted concept among many.

However, Hebrew cosmology takes the ancient near eastern trait of defining a flat, round earth with the waters below and the heavens in a dome above. See my last post.

[Guiscard]

Ok if you're just joking around then that's fine. But if you honestly believe that the flat earth hypothesis was widely accepted by the Catholic church or other sects of Christianity then you are mistaken. As you probably already know, the Bible is a compilation of books written by different people. None of them believed in a flat earth.

Wrong. Read my last post.

[Guiscard]

There is always a choice. As Musashi said: "You can abandon your body, but you must perserve your honor." At every moment of every day we are responsible for both our choices and the consequences of those choices.

He was 14.

It was compulsory.

People who opposed it were executed.

[got tonkaed]

theres no evidence at all to suggest that any of the writers of the books of the bible (considering the timeperiod they all lived in (and i mean teh original story tellers, the people involved shall we say)) would believe in anything but a flat earth hypothesis. Frankly the notion that the earth is not flat is a relatively modern invention ( in terms of history that we are discussing here)

ive never come across (and perhaps this is of my own error) any information suggesting anyone in early christianity necessarily believed in round earth, until the ideas were increasingly proposed and accepted much later on. Theres nothing unexpected about that though, it would be no different than a discovery taking place about our world 100 years from now, that the majority of us would know little to nothing of.

You are both right and wrong... The idea of a round earth has been around as long as recorded history. Aristotle proved it, pythagoras likely did as well... It was a widely accepted concept among many.

However, Hebrew cosmology takes the ancient near eastern trait of defining a flat, round earth with the waters below and the heavens in a dome above. See my last post.

thats true, i overstep my bounds there....speaking of which, thats from studying jewish history more than early xian history correct? As far as i can tell most groups, even some of the gnostic ones didnt really latch on to all that many of hebrew conceptions of the world, with a few exceptions.

I admittedly havent studied a whole lot of hebrew history outside of the obvious few sources, so i dont really know.

also you are laying down the law on this page of the thread.

[Guiscard]

thats true, i overstep my bounds there....speaking of which, thats from studying jewish history more than early xian history correct? As far as i can tell most groups, even some of the gnostic ones didnt really latch on to all that many of hebrew conceptions of the world, with a few exceptions.

I admittedly havent studied a whole lot of hebrew history outside of the obvious few sources, so i dont really know.

Oh certainly the views of Judaism, but that is what the Old Testement is. It is a collection of Hebrew religious texts. Its description of the world and the creation account are both 100% typical Hebrew Cosmological accounts. There is no argument. The world they describe looks like this:



If we are talking about the Bible specifically, this is the world they describe.