Nobody was Armed

[muy_thaiguy]

Looking at the page, it's very black and white. Thinking either the people have all the guns or the gov't does. Wrong. Only a few privileged citizens should have weapons. They should not be available at the level they are now, otherwise shit like VT happens.

And what "Privileged" people need them?

[xtratabasco]

Looking at the page, it's very black and white. Thinking either the people have all the guns or the gov't does. Wrong. Only a few privileged citizens should have weapons. They should not be available at the level they are now, otherwise shit like VT happens.

if you buy the DVD or see the clip you will be on the ground crying your eyes out as 170,000,000 civilians get butchered

That's the number of civilians that have been murdered by their own governments in the 20th century alone. 170,000,000 men, women, and children who were defenseless to protect themselves. 170,000,000 victims of gun control.

You have never seen anything like Innocents Betrayed.
This story has never been told in a documentary film.

In this powerful documentary produced by Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, you will learn how governments have historically deprived people of firearms ... and then wiped them from the face of the earth.



yep, just wiping off the face of the earth....you know, those 170,000,000 dont need guns.



pathetic and sad

[Nobunaga]

... Generally conservative here, but I do not subscribe to the "patently conservative" notion on guns.

... Guns should be available to any US citizen who wants to purchase one... AFTER a series of classes, a battery of tests, and a bill of general psychological good health.

... I returned from being overseas for a decade and the amount of violence in my home country (USA) is now quite shocking. Local news is all about "The Murders of the Day". Quite horrifying, really. Where I spent the last ten years, one murder, anywhere in the country, would have been a national headline.

...

[xtratabasco]

... Generally conservative here, but I do not subscribe to the "patently conservative" notion on guns.

... Guns should be available to any US citizen who wants to purchase one... AFTER a series of classes, a battery of tests, and a bill of general psychological health.

... I returned from being overseas for a decade and the amount of violence in my home country (USA) is now quite shocking. Local news is all about "The Murders of the Day". Quite horrifying, really. Where I spent the last ten years, one murder, anywhere in the country, would have been a national headliner.

...

FBI STATS
well illegals kill and sexually assalt over 28k a year here (not counting the deaths from DUIs) and this government still wont do anything about it, and only now the citizens are starting to get fed up, but only cuzz there tired of paying for the bastards..


you can slip and fall in the shower.

keep the 2nd amendment a shining example of True Freedom and the ability to defend yourself from an illegal or anyone.


Its just that simple

[muy_thaiguy]

... Generally conservative here, but I do not subscribe to the "patently conservative" notion on guns.

... Guns should be available to any US citizen who wants to purchase one... AFTER a series of classes, a battery of tests, and a bill of general psychological health.
... I returned from being overseas for a decade and the amount of violence in my home country (USA) is now quite shocking. Local news is all about "The Murders of the Day". Quite horrifying, really. Where I spent the last ten years, one murder, anywhere in the country, would have been a national headliner.

...

I agree with that, and most people I know would fit that well. But from what some people suggest (not quite on here, but I think it has been mentioned) that we should get rid of all guns except for the military. Going by the 2nd Amendment, that would be an infringement of our natural human rights to protect and arm ourselves.

[Nobunaga]

... Generally conservative here, but I do not subscribe to the "patently conservative" notion on guns.

... Guns should be available to any US citizen who wants to purchase one... AFTER a series of classes, a battery of tests, and a bill of general psychological health.

... I returned from being overseas for a decade and the amount of violence in my home country (USA) is now quite shocking. Local news is all about "The Murders of the Day". Quite horrifying, really. Where I spent the last ten years, one murder, anywhere in the country, would have been a national headliner.

...

FBI STATS
well illegals kill and sexually assalt over 28k a year here (not counting the deaths from DUIs) and this government still wont do anything about it, and only now the citizens are starting to get fed up, but only cuzz there tired of paying for the bastards..


you can slip and fall in the shower.

keep the 2nd amendment a shining example of True Freedom and the ability to defend yourself from an illegal or anyone.


Its just that simple

... Hey, I agree. But tighten the controls a bit. I hate big government, but when it comes to guns... that is one thing that should, to a degree, be regulated.

... Hey, here's an idea - one in, say every 10 citizens must carry. Who has to carry can be decided after the afore mentioned tests and after town-hall lotteries.... or something like that.

....

[muy_thaiguy]

The 2nd one there Nobunaga, would not be popular at all in quite a few places, especially Texas and Wyoming, here in Wyo, we have a lot of hunters, alot more then 1 in ten. More like 2/3 people.

[Nobunaga]

... Well, I don't mean LIMIT guns to 1 in 10, but to have a law requiring 1 in 10 to be in posession of a sidearm at all times.

... Even if you're a badass, you think you wouldn't think twice before assaulting somebody for a wallet?

...

[unriggable]

You think that the gov't would give up on these people if they SHOT a police officer or a swat official? Guns are used to A. Threaten to kill and B. Kill. Nothing else. It's not like a weapon will save you. That's pure bullshit.

That 170,000,000 mark is really stupid. This figure essentially includes wars and coups.

Also its not like illegals are alligators or anything. They are running AWAY from something to live, not to rape and murder. Some of the sweetest people I know shouldn't legally be here, and I am glad they are. And those figures are way out of whack BTW.

[xtratabasco]

That 170,000,000 mark is really stupid.

Interesting choice of words, but not surprising coming from a gun-grabber.


http://www.innocentsbetrayed.com/index2.htm

[Snorri1234]

That 170,000,000 mark is really stupid.

Interesting choice of words, but not surprising coming from a gun-grabber.


http://www.innocentsbetrayed.com/index2.htm

Hey guys, if I link to Bowling for Columbine will you guys believe it totally?

A documentary proves nothing, dude, since they notoriously give off incorrect or incomplete information. Especially if that documentary is made by Jews for the Preservation of Firearms.http://www.jpfo.org/

[Guiscard]

... Guns should be available to any US citizen who wants to purchase one... AFTER a series of classes, a battery of tests, and a bill of general psychological good health.

I agree with this... but do you not think certain guns (for example sub-machine guns and the like) should be restricted and need some kind of proof of appropriate use? I can understand people wanting rifles for hunting or whatever and pistols to use competitively, but I cannot for the life of me understand why people would want to own a sub-machine gun or a rifle with much more power than would ever be needed in competition or sport.

[unriggable]

... Guns should be available to any US citizen who wants to purchase one... AFTER a series of classes, a battery of tests, and a bill of general psychological good health.

I agree with this... but do you not think certain guns (for example sub-machine guns and the like) should be restricted and need some kind of proof of appropriate use? I can understand people wanting rifles for hunting or whatever and pistols to use competitively, but I cannot for the life of me understand why people would want to own a sub-machine gun or a rifle with much more power than would ever be needed in competition or sport.

I agree, when the 2nd ammendment was written it took twenty seconds to load a shot. I don't think they would look at a submachine gun in the same way.

[mybike_yourface]

the major flaw in your thinking mtg (imo at least) is the average person will be no more able to turn the barrel of a gun away than to avert the danger from a knife, the fear is still the same. However, the utility in killing with a knife is less than it is with a gun. I can maybe out run someone with a knife, i probably cant out run bullets. I bet if you asked the average person (anyone not trained in self defense) they take their chances with a knife.

But a knife (depending of course) has more danger points then a gun does. Most people only think the gun is more dangerous because of the bullet. The knife can be thrown (not hard to do after a little practice) and of course used to say, cut the face off of someone. The knife, has the point, the edge, and the butt, the gun, the bullet, and the butt. Most people don't use the butt of the gun (be it hand gun or rifle). Also, the bullet is limited in number, as is the knife when thrown. But guns were never really meant for up close fights. Knives are. Knives can also be hidden in your pocket, shoe, shirt, pants, whatever. Not so easy with a gun. Thus, the knife is rendered much more lethal while the gun is lethal only to a certain extent.

As far as i can find out there's been only one documented case of someone succesfully throwing a knife in combat. i beleive it was in WW2 and the guy who threw the knife had been a trained circus performer. not that it can't be done, but it's very difficult to do sucessfully.

[Snorri1234]

the major flaw in your thinking mtg (imo at least) is the average person will be no more able to turn the barrel of a gun away than to avert the danger from a knife, the fear is still the same. However, the utility in killing with a knife is less than it is with a gun. I can maybe out run someone with a knife, i probably cant out run bullets. I bet if you asked the average person (anyone not trained in self defense) they take their chances with a knife.

But a knife (depending of course) has more danger points then a gun does. Most people only think the gun is more dangerous because of the bullet. The knife can be thrown (not hard to do after a little practice) and of course used to say, cut the face off of someone. The knife, has the point, the edge, and the butt, the gun, the bullet, and the butt. Most people don't use the butt of the gun (be it hand gun or rifle). Also, the bullet is limited in number, as is the knife when thrown. But guns were never really meant for up close fights. Knives are. Knives can also be hidden in your pocket, shoe, shirt, pants, whatever. Not so easy with a gun. Thus, the knife is rendered much more lethal while the gun is lethal only to a certain extent.

As far as i can find out there's been only one documented case of someone succesfully throwing a knife in combat. i beleive it was in WW2 and the guy who threw the knife had been a trained circus performer. not that it can't be done, but it's very difficult to do sucessfully.

It's also really stupid to do because you disarm yourself immediately. Unless you have many knifes, it's generally a stupid move.

[mybike_yourface]

here in Arizona(and other western states) just about anyone can carry a gun unconcealed, and you can carry pocket knives up to a certain length(i beleive a 3 1/2" blade) concealed. this includes kids with guns. last i checked if you're under 18 you just need a note from your parent to carry a gun. and concealed carry permits aren't hard to get. i personally wouldn't like to live in a place that i can't at least carry a pocket knife. a trained fighter in close with a knife can be much scarier than a person with a gun. experts say you can pretty much bet on getting cut in any knife attack or knife fight and it's very difficult to disarm a person with a knife who's had any training. not that guns aren't scary and extrememly dangerous. both a knife and gun are difficult to disarm from a determined attacker. if running was an option in either situation i'd take it.

[mybike_yourface]

A deputy sheriff went berserk and killed half a dozen people in Wisconsin, because he was mad at his girl friend. He may also have been a member of the local SWAT team. Because of federal largesse, every local government entity worth mentioning has one. Remember, one of the most horrible things you and I could do, worse than child abuse, worse than anything you can think of, is “take the law into our own hands.” Instead, say the liberaloid gun confiscation Nazis, we should rely on the expertise of men like the one who killed those six people.

At the same time, in New York City, another man went berserk—apparently he went off his medication—slashed the throat of a chef and then repeatedly stabbed a woman who was walking her dog. Nobody could stop him because nobody was armed. Nobody was armed because New Yorkers are much more intelligent and civilized than you and I are. Finally, an off duty cop did stop him, and you will be relieved to know that, after he stopped him, the cop, according to procedure, was given and passed a sobriety test.

Arm yourselves!

http://www.alanstang.com

Firstly, using "mad" people as a reason for gun legalisation does not stand up well. Secondly, a single off duty cop could stop the attack in New York, but all other passer-bys couldnt? I call that cowardice and not looking out for others on the part of those people.

You examples also prove a point. People with guns can kill multiple times with ease. Without guns it is harder to commit mass murder, and the victim also has a chance of survival or to fight back, ie, a martial artists or in good shape person could fight back or at least run away. If they have a gun, you stand no chance.

Titanic, speaking as a Martial Artist for 4 years, and with advice of those who have been doing it longer then I have, most would rather face a gun then a knife or other sharp object. Granted from a good distance away, it is going to be trouble. But to render a gun practically useless, is much easier then a knife. A gun, if it is in close, all you have to do is point the barrel away from you, for knives, unless you know EXACTLY what to do and the right time to do it and that you can do it under that much pressure, you are screwed.

i've seen a lot of bad m.a. gun and knife disarm techniques over the years. there's some very bad ones in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Self-Defense Techniques by Royce Gracie for example.

Just pointing a gun barrel away from you sounds simple but it's not so easy. i'd say with a gun you need to know EXACTLY what to do and the right time to do it as well. for example imagine wrestling around trying to disarm a guy with a gun while he's firing off shots. it's extremely lowd, scarry and even if the barrel is pointed away from you someone else can get hit.

[DaGip]

A deputy sheriff went berserk and killed half a dozen people in Wisconsin, because he was mad at his girl friend. He may also have been a member of the local SWAT team. Because of federal largesse, every local government entity worth mentioning has one. Remember, one of the most horrible things you and I could do, worse than child abuse, worse than anything you can think of, is “take the law into our own hands.” Instead, say the liberaloid gun confiscation Nazis, we should rely on the expertise of men like the one who killed those six people.

At the same time, in New York City, another man went berserk—apparently he went off his medication—slashed the throat of a chef and then repeatedly stabbed a woman who was walking her dog. Nobody could stop him because nobody was armed. Nobody was armed because New Yorkers are much more intelligent and civilized than you and I are. Finally, an off duty cop did stop him, and you will be relieved to know that, after he stopped him, the cop, according to procedure, was given and passed a sobriety test.

Arm yourselves!

http://www.alanstang.com

Firstly, using "mad" people as a reason for gun legalisation does not stand up well. Secondly, a single off duty cop could stop the attack in New York, but all other passer-bys couldnt? I call that cowardice and not looking out for others on the part of those people.

You examples also prove a point. People with guns can kill multiple times with ease. Without guns it is harder to commit mass murder, and the victim also has a chance of survival or to fight back, ie, a martial artists or in good shape person could fight back or at least run away. If they have a gun, you stand no chance.

Titanic, speaking as a Martial Artist for 4 years, and with advice of those who have been doing it longer then I have, most would rather face a gun then a knife or other sharp object. Granted from a good distance away, it is going to be trouble. But to render a gun practically useless, is much easier then a knife. A gun, if it is in close, all you have to do is point the barrel away from you, for knives, unless you know EXACTLY what to do and the right time to do it and that you can do it under that much pressure, you are screwed.

i've seen a lot of bad m.a. gun and knife disarm techniques over the years. there's some very bad ones in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Self-Defense Techniques by Royce Gracie for example.

Just pointing a gun barrel away from you sounds simple but it's not so easy. i'd say with a gun you need to know EXACTLY what to do and the right time to do it as well. for example imagine wrestling around trying to disarm a guy with a gun while he's firing off shots. it's extremely lowd, scarry and even if the barrel is pointed away from you someone else can get hit.

I seen in a movie once where a guy jammed the web of his hand between the firing hammer and firing pin so the gun didn't go off, and then he KungFu-ed his arse! Do you know what movie I am talking about? Anybody????

[muy_thaiguy]

One with Jet Lee?

[quote="mybike_yourface]here in Arizona(and other western states) just about anyone can carry a gun unconcealed, and you can carry pocket knives up to a certain length(i beleive a 3 1/2" blade) concealed. this includes kids with guns. last i checked if you're under 18 you just need a note from your parent to carry a gun. and concealed carry permits aren't hard to get. i personally wouldn't like to live in a place that i can't at least carry a pocket knife. a trained fighter in close with a knife can be much scarier than a person with a gun. experts say you can pretty much bet on getting cut in any knife attack or knife fight and it's very difficult to disarm a person with a knife who's had any training. not that guns aren't scary and extrememly dangerous. both a knife and gun are difficult to disarm from a determined attacker. if running was an option in either situation i'd take it.[/quote]I 100% agree with this post. But the one after it, if you can remain calm enough to think about the danger points of the gun, and the person holding it is close enough, you can keep the gun barrel away from you, just make sure to keep the gun user's mind off of the gun by, say, racking them in the balls with your knee a couple times.

[Nobunaga]

... Guns should be available to any US citizen who wants to purchase one... AFTER a series of classes, a battery of tests, and a bill of general psychological good health.

I agree with this... but do you not think certain guns (for example sub-machine guns and the like) should be restricted and need some kind of proof of appropriate use? I can understand people wanting rifles for hunting or whatever and pistols to use competitively, but I cannot for the life of me understand why people would want to own a sub-machine gun or a rifle with much more power than would ever be needed in competition or sport.

... I can see no use or excuse for the private ownership of a sub machine gun in the United States.

... Makes me crazy when hunters get up in arms when there is talk about placing restrictions on Automatic Rifles. I know there are many types of automatic rifles and some might be use in hunting, but nobody needs to be able to buy and own an AK74, M16 or a fully auto AR15.

... But... who knows, maybe 1000 rounds a minute makes it easier to bring down the wiley and elusive wild turky.

...

[Guiscard]

... But... who knows, maybe 1000 rounds a minute makes it easier to bring down the wiley and elusive wild turky.

...

Surely you'd have to be an awfully bad hunter to resort to that...

[DaGip]

One with Jet Lee?

[

Yeah, when I lived in Arizona, I used to see cowboys carrying sidearms all the time, even in the middle of Phoenix...but mostly out by the Grand Canyon area of Northern Arizona. I do not own a gun, but I have no problem with responsible people carrying sidearms. Many crimes could be prevented if more people carried sidearms for protection. My family never really advocated guns, so I never became very gun crazy. But I knew people that were so far to the left that they wanted a total ban on all guns and thought there was absolutely no need to own one. This idea is nuts to me. I believe in bearing arms, but I choose not to own a gun. Perhaps it is because of the small town I live in. Plenty of rednecks around here to make up for my own personal lack of firearms. LOL!

[mybike_yourface]

A deputy sheriff went berserk and killed half a dozen people in Wisconsin, because he was mad at his girl friend. He may also have been a member of the local SWAT team. Because of federal largesse, every local government entity worth mentioning has one. Remember, one of the most horrible things you and I could do, worse than child abuse, worse than anything you can think of, is “take the law into our own hands.” Instead, say the liberaloid gun confiscation Nazis, we should rely on the expertise of men like the one who killed those six people.

At the same time, in New York City, another man went berserk—apparently he went off his medication—slashed the throat of a chef and then repeatedly stabbed a woman who was walking her dog. Nobody could stop him because nobody was armed. Nobody was armed because New Yorkers are much more intelligent and civilized than you and I are. Finally, an off duty cop did stop him, and you will be relieved to know that, after he stopped him, the cop, according to procedure, was given and passed a sobriety test.

Arm yourselves!

http://www.alanstang.com

Firstly, using "mad" people as a reason for gun legalisation does not stand up well. Secondly, a single off duty cop could stop the attack in New York, but all other passer-bys couldnt? I call that cowardice and not looking out for others on the part of those people.

You examples also prove a point. People with guns can kill multiple times with ease. Without guns it is harder to commit mass murder, and the victim also has a chance of survival or to fight back, ie, a martial artists or in good shape person could fight back or at least run away. If they have a gun, you stand no chance.

Titanic, speaking as a Martial Artist for 4 years, and with advice of those who have been doing it longer then I have, most would rather face a gun then a knife or other sharp object. Granted from a good distance away, it is going to be trouble. But to render a gun practically useless, is much easier then a knife. A gun, if it is in close, all you have to do is point the barrel away from you, for knives, unless you know EXACTLY what to do and the right time to do it and that you can do it under that much pressure, you are screwed.

i've seen a lot of bad m.a. gun and knife disarm techniques over the years. there's some very bad ones in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Self-Defense Techniques by Royce Gracie for example.

Just pointing a gun barrel away from you sounds simple but it's not so easy. i'd say with a gun you need to know EXACTLY what to do and the right time to do it as well. for example imagine wrestling around trying to disarm a guy with a gun while he's firing off shots. it's extremely lowd, scarry and even if the barrel is pointed away from you someone else can get hit.

I seen in a movie once where a guy jammed the web of his hand between the firing hammer and firing pin so the gun didn't go off, and then he KungFu-ed his arse! Do you know what movie I am talking about? Anybody????

was it an episode of Walker Texas Ranger? Sammo Hung maybe?

[mybike_yourface]

i can't help it but think we may be missing something here. it's easy to talk about "crazies" but there's something deeper going on here. it's a social problem. it's good if you're armed yourself and you can deal with a situation. but the situations are just symptoms of a deeper social illness. what's with our increasingly violent society here in the U.S.? i'm no fan of societies in general. i'd like to ultimately see us get away from this failed city state model. there's a lot of things i could point towards(capitalism is always obvious) but past people owning guns or not maybe we should talk about something deeper. you don't have to have guns for whole groups of people or individuals to slaughter each other.

[Nobunaga]

i can't help it but think we may be missing something here. it's easy to talk about "crazies" but there's something deeper going on here. it's a social problem. it's good if you're armed yourself and you can deal with a situation. but the situations are just symptoms of a deeper social illness. what's with our increasingly violent society here in the U.S.? i'm no fan of societies in general. i'd like to ultimately see us get away from this failed city state model. there's a lot of things i could point towards(capitalism is always obvious) but past people owning guns or not maybe we should talk about something deeper. you don't have to have guns for whole groups of people or individuals to slaughter each other.

... Violent crime rates, especially murder (as well as others), are quite a bit lower today than they were 30 years ago. I'd give you a link but I'm lazy. Trust me, or look it up - shouldn't be too hard to find. The 70's were bad.

... Bloody news sells commercials, and news isn't the 30 minute evening summary of daily events that it used to be. News is now 24-7.

... But yeah, Americans are, generally speaking, violent. Perhaps more than most they see violence as a means of resolving conflicts... I mean, it's one of the first things that comes to an American mind when he (or she) is pissed off.

...