The Bible is Brutal

[joecoolfrog]

Even if you don't believe, the Bible makes a rather intriging read.
A few months ago I picked up my copy and flicked to a chapter which I have no hope remembering now. In it, it describes a group of people finding a man picking up logs on a Sunday. As this classifies as work, he had to be punished. Which was - believe it or not - death. Who gave the verdict? God himself. I am not joking. Who knows? Maybe the guy was collecting wood to build a fire for his cold family. Seems harsh, yes?
Any regular readers who know the chapter name and verse number for this little story?

So far as I know, the rules about working on Sunday were slackened quite a bit when Jesus came around, because people (namely the pharisees) were using the old law for their own advancement and holier-than-thou charades as opposed to using them to honor the Lord.

But I'm no expert on the Old Testament, not sure where MR. Nate is, but he always has a good answer to this sort of Old Testament oddity.

Ambroise there never were any biblical rules about working on a Sunday,the Sabbath is Saturday and always has been.Sunday was simply decreed a holy day by the Holy Roman Church in the 4th century and Catholic theologians have never attempted to pretend otherwise.
Various theories have been put forward as to the change but the most popular views are that the Church wished to distance itself from Judaism or that it was done as a sop to the many Pagan followers of the Sun God - from which the name derives.
Many Christians argue that it is irrelevant because Sunday is simply now a holy day in which to praise Jesus, thats absolutely correct but it is of mans design not that of God or Christ.
What I find weird is that Protestants observe Sunday as the Sabbath given that it has no biblical foundation and was put in place by the Catholic church - Strange !

true but God could care less about the day of the week just as long as it is once a week, Saturday was just a suggested day of the week not one that must by all means be followed. also another reason why we chose sunday was because easter is on a sunday and is the most important christain holiday

What an absolute pile of nonsense,how the f*ck can you know what God thinks,the Church changed it for their own convenience and your a moron if you say otherwise.

[joecoolfrog]

I don't care if it -40 degrees outside! If God tells me not to gather wood on a certain day...I ain't gathering wood!

Commendable Jay
I trust you realise that day is Saturday though and not Sunday, or else you may not have to worry about staying warm in the future

I am aware the Sabbath is Saturday. Some people believe (not sure if I do) that "the beast" in revelation will be Catholic because of the verse "He will change times and dates". (the Pope) I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Jay
I think your mad but at least your form of madness is consistent

[satanspaladin]

Shut your face.

i think its my voice you like to stop.not surprising with the christians attitude of love thy neighbor as thee
would love thy self as long as thay have the same beliefs other wise stone them to death

[edgarhons]

If you're not allowed to gather wood, how'd they get the stones?

I'm a non-believer who says any book called "The Good Book" is definitely not a good book.

[magneticgoop]

Even if you don't believe, the Bible makes a rather intriging read.
A few months ago I picked up my copy and flicked to a chapter which I have no hope remembering now. In it, it describes a group of people finding a man picking up logs on a Sunday. As this classifies as work, he had to be punished. Which was - believe it or not - death. Who gave the verdict? God himself. I am not joking. Who knows? Maybe the guy was collecting wood to build a fire for his cold family. Seems harsh, yes?
Any regular readers who know the chapter name and verse number for this little story?

So far as I know, the rules about working on Sunday were slackened quite a bit when Jesus came around, because people (namely the pharisees) were using the old law for their own advancement and holier-than-thou charades as opposed to using them to honor the Lord.

But I'm no expert on the Old Testament, not sure where MR. Nate is, but he always has a good answer to this sort of Old Testament oddity.

Ambroise there never were any biblical rules about working on a Sunday,the Sabbath is Saturday and always has been.Sunday was simply decreed a holy day by the Holy Roman Church in the 4th century and Catholic theologians have never attempted to pretend otherwise.
Various theories have been put forward as to the change but the most popular views are that the Church wished to distance itself from Judaism or that it was done as a sop to the many Pagan followers of the Sun God - from which the name derives.
Many Christians argue that it is irrelevant because Sunday is simply now a holy day in which to praise Jesus, thats absolutely correct but it is of mans design not that of God or Christ.
What I find weird is that Protestants observe Sunday as the Sabbath given that it has no biblical foundation and was put in place by the Catholic church - Strange !

true but God could care less about the day of the week just as long as it is once a week, Saturday was just a suggested day of the week not one that must by all means be followed. also another reason why we chose sunday was because easter is on a sunday and is the most important christain holiday

What an absolute pile of nonsense,how the f*ck can you know what God thinks,the Church changed it for their own convenience and your a moron if you say otherwise.

how can YOU know the church changed it even if it is all fake it is a wonderful fantasy and as they always say ignorance is bliss

[OnlyAmbrose]

My mistake on the whole Saturday / Sunday thing. The point still stands however.

[joecoolfrog]

Even if you don't believe, the Bible makes a rather intriging read.
A few months ago I picked up my copy and flicked to a chapter which I have no hope remembering now. In it, it describes a group of people finding a man picking up logs on a Sunday. As this classifies as work, he had to be punished. Which was - believe it or not - death. Who gave the verdict? God himself. I am not joking. Who knows? Maybe the guy was collecting wood to build a fire for his cold family. Seems harsh, yes?
Any regular readers who know the chapter name and verse number for this little story?

So far as I know, the rules about working on Sunday were slackened quite a bit when Jesus came around, because people (namely the pharisees) were using the old law for their own advancement and holier-than-thou charades as opposed to using them to honor the Lord.

But I'm no expert on the Old Testament, not sure where MR. Nate is, but he always has a good answer to this sort of Old Testament oddity.

Ambroise there never were any biblical rules about working on a Sunday,the Sabbath is Saturday and always has been.Sunday was simply decreed a holy day by the Holy Roman Church in the 4th century and Catholic theologians have never attempted to pretend otherwise.
Various theories have been put forward as to the change but the most popular views are that the Church wished to distance itself from Judaism or that it was done as a sop to the many Pagan followers of the Sun God - from which the name derives.
Many Christians argue that it is irrelevant because Sunday is simply now a holy day in which to praise Jesus, thats absolutely correct but it is of mans design not that of God or Christ.
What I find weird is that Protestants observe Sunday as the Sabbath given that it has no biblical foundation and was put in place by the Catholic church - Strange !

true but God could care less about the day of the week just as long as it is once a week, Saturday was just a suggested day of the week not one that must by all means be followed. also another reason why we chose sunday was because easter is on a sunday and is the most important christain holiday

What an absolute pile of nonsense,how the f*ck can you know what God thinks,the Church changed it for their own convenience and your a moron if you say otherwise.

how can YOU know the church changed it even if it is all fake it is a wonderful fantasy and as they always say ignorance is bliss

Its a matter of historical record, the Catholic church makes no effort to deny it !

[joecoolfrog]

My mistake on the whole Saturday / Sunday thing. The point still stands however.

Sorry Ambrose,I am probably being dense but what point are you refering to ?

[OnlyAmbrose]

My mistake on the whole Saturday / Sunday thing. The point still stands however.

Sorry Ambrose,I am probably being dense but what point are you refering to ?

This one:

So far as I know, the rules about working on Sunday were slackened quite a bit when Jesus came around, because people (namely the pharisees) were using the old law for their own advancement and holier-than-thou charades as opposed to using them to honor the Lord.

But I'm no expert on the Old Testament, not sure where MR. Nate is, but he always has a good answer to this sort of Old Testament oddity.

Just cross out "Sunday" and replace it with "Saturday", and you have what I was trying to say.

[Knight of Orient]

According to Leviticus, if you raped a girl you had to pay her father a dowry and get married to her and you could never divorce.

Also, irony: Moses, who was saved from a pharoah who was killing all male children to ensure docility in the slaves, ended up killing all the males of some tribe that he ambushed. This was in like chapter thirty-something of Deuteronomy or one of those books near the start. I'm very sure it was before Judges.

um wrong,the tribe of benjamin in the book of judges commited attrocities, (homosexual acts) and were punished. even tho the rest didnt conult God. they later regretted it and helped repopulate that tribe. moses was long dead, and so was joshua, there were only the Judges of Israel

[Itrade]

On this whole "The Pope is the beast" thing, I was thinking that perhaps Santa Claus was the beast. I mean, he replaces Jesus as the main character of the holiday, he introduces all sorts of herectical practices and if you move the n to the end of his first name...

On topic, here are some verses you might enjoy:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35, King James Version
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Psalms 137:8-9, King James Version
O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Numbers 31:15-18, King James Version
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

This one's the rape = marriage one, I threw in verse 30 because it sounds funny.

Dueteronomy 28:28-30
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt.

The story of the Levite (a dude from the tribe of Levi, who do the jobs of the priests) and his concubine, which later provokes a war.

Judges 19:21-30 King James Version
So he brought him into his house, and gave provender unto the asses: and they washed their feet, and did eat and drink.

Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.

And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.

Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.

But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.

And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.

And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.

And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.

And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.

[MR. Nate]

Even if you don't believe, the Bible makes a rather intriging read.
A few months ago I picked up my copy and flicked to a chapter which I have no hope remembering now. In it, it describes a group of people finding a man picking up logs on a Sunday. As this classifies as work, he had to be punished. Which was - believe it or not - death. Who gave the verdict? God himself. I am not joking. Who knows? Maybe the guy was collecting wood to build a fire for his cold family. Seems harsh, yes?

I cannot deny either that the Bible is an intriguing read, or that some of the stories are brutal. In fact I would wholeheartedly agree with both. However, to impugn the character or nature of God based on the judgment from a fallen and imperfect mind strikes me as somewhat arrogant. I'm not saying this because I expect you to agree, but so that you are aware of where I'm coming from.

So far as I know, the rules about working on Sunday were slackened quite a bit when Jesus came around, because people (namely the pharisees) were using the old law for their own advancement and holier-than-thou charades as opposed to using them to honor the Lord.

But I'm no expert on the Old Testament, not sure where MR. Nate is, but he always has a good answer to this sort of Old Testament oddity.

Thank you for your vote of confidence, Ambrose. Actually, this is a point that I'm oddly torn about. Christ certainly made a habit of "breaking" the sabbath law. But he never broke the portions God had commanded. Christ seemed more concerned that the pharisees used the Sabbath law as a formal rule without understanding the motive. For instance, they criticized Christ for healing on Sabbath. They criticized the disciples for essentially snacking on the Sabbath. In addition, Christ said that he did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. So while we certainly don't keep the sabbath law the same way as the Jews did (do) perhaps it is something we should reconsider? That being said, the Sabbath law, and much of the legal code of Exodus - Deuteronomy was specifically for the nation of Israel because they had God as their ruler. That makes many of the specifics of the law open to interpretation, although we can certainly learn about the charachter of God from the principles behind the law.

Ambroise there never were any biblical rules about working on a Sunday,the Sabbath is Saturday and always has been.Sunday was simply decreed a holy day by the Holy Roman Church in the 4th century and Catholic theologians have never attempted to pretend otherwise.
Various theories have been put forward as to the change but the most popular views are that the Church wished to distance itself from Judaism or that it was done as a sop to the many Pagan followers of the Sun God - from which the name derives.
Many Christians argue that it is irrelevant because Sunday is simply now a holy day in which to praise Jesus, thats absolutely correct but it is of mans design not that of God or Christ.
What I find weird is that Protestants observe Sunday as the Sabbath given that it has no biblical foundation and was put in place by the Catholic church - Strange !

true but God could care less about the day of the week just as long as it is once a week, Saturday was just a suggested day of the week not one that must by all means be followed. also another reason why we chose sunday was because easter is on a sunday and is the most important christain holiday

What an absolute pile of nonsense,how the f*ck can you know what God thinks,the Church changed it for their own convenience and your a moron if you say otherwise.

how can YOU know the church changed it even if it is all fake it is a wonderful fantasy and as they always say ignorance is bliss

Its a matter of historical record, the Catholic church makes no effort to deny it !

Acts 20:7, which indicates that within a few years of the resurrection, Christians were meeting on Sundays rather than Saturdays. It makes sense, really. At that time, Christianity was still primarily a sect of Judaism. They would have still attended synagogue and followed Sabbath law. The meeting on Sunday would have been after work, to remind them that their Messiah had come.

[joecoolfrog]

Mr Nate

You may well be right that Sunday was a practical and convenient time for early Christians to meet/worship,cant see though that that was still the case centuries later when the church formalised the arrangement. Regardless of this surely though it was Gods edict that the 7th day( sabbath ) was the day of rest and mere pragmatism does not alter that, you may attend church and worship whenever you wish but as I see it working on a Saturday contravines Gods explicit wish.
Actually I think all religions need to evolve in order to survive and grow strong so the church made a good move in distancing itself from Judaism,simply find it amusing that some are happy to accept Sunday as the Sabbath yet insist on literal interpretation of the Old Testament at the same time.

[Beastly]

Even if you don't believe, the Bible makes a rather intriging read.
A few months ago I picked up my copy and flicked to a chapter which I have no hope remembering now. In it, it describes a group of people finding a man picking up logs on a Sunday. As this classifies as work, he had to be punished. Which was - believe it or not - death. Who gave the verdict? God himself. I am not joking. Who knows? Maybe the guy was collecting wood to build a fire for his cold family. Seems harsh, yes?
Any regular readers who know the chapter name and verse number for this little story?

I don't see how this can be truthful, when Saturday was the day they weren't suppose to work on. The Sabbath.

[joecoolfrog]

Even if you don't believe, the Bible makes a rather intriging read.
A few months ago I picked up my copy and flicked to a chapter which I have no hope remembering now. In it, it describes a group of people finding a man picking up logs on a Sunday. As this classifies as work, he had to be punished. Which was - believe it or not - death. Who gave the verdict? God himself. I am not joking. Who knows? Maybe the guy was collecting wood to build a fire for his cold family. Seems harsh, yes?
Any regular readers who know the chapter name and verse number for this little story?

I don't see how this can be truthful, when Saturday was the day they weren't suppose to work on. The Sabbath.

Thank you for that most original contribution

[Iliad]

Even if you don't believe, the Bible makes a rather intriging read.
A few months ago I picked up my copy and flicked to a chapter which I have no hope remembering now. In it, it describes a group of people finding a man picking up logs on a Sunday. As this classifies as work, he had to be punished. Which was - believe it or not - death. Who gave the verdict? God himself. I am not joking. Who knows? Maybe the guy was collecting wood to build a fire for his cold family. Seems harsh, yes?
Any regular readers who know the chapter name and verse number for this little story?

I don't see how this can be truthful, when Saturday was the day they weren't suppose to work on. The Sabbath.

Because everyone totally hasn't said that already!![/sarcasm]

[MR. Nate]

the Sabbath law, and much of the legal code of Exodus - Deuteronomy was specifically for the nation of Israel because they had God as their ruler. That makes many of the specifics of the law open to interpretation, although we can certainly learn about the character of God from the principles behind the law.

I meant it when I said this. I don't feel that any portion of the law is binding on believers today. The law is to be translated literally, for the people and purpose it was intended for: as a national legal code for Israel prior to the advent of the Messiah. Because I am a gentile, and I live after the 1st coming of Christ, none of the law is applicable. I have a bit more freedom to choose my mode of worship.

[OnlyAmbrose]

Because I am a gentile, and I live after the 1st coming of Christ, none of the law is applicable. I have a bit more freedom to choose my mode of worship.

Though I'm good for nothing in OT-related mattered, this I can help with some.

MR. Nate is absolutely right, and it's essentially proven in the Acts of the Apostles. In the book of Acts, the Council of Jerusalem is detailed. This was the first Church Council in history, and was held to deal with this very matter - whether the gentiles were bound by the old law of Israel and, more specifically, whether they must be circumcised. The Council basically decided that a foreskin isn't going to make God love a gentile any less.

[autoload]

Shut your face.

i think its my voice you like to stop.not surprising with the christians attitude of love thy neighbor as thee
would love thy self as long as thay have the same beliefs other wise stone them to death

I COMMAND you to shut your face!
God shalt not rest until you repent or BURN IN HELL!!!
I shall now turn the other cheek and await your response...

[MR. Nate]

Shut your face.

i think its my voice you like to stop.not surprising with the christians attitude of love thy neighbor as thee
would love thy self as long as thay have the same beliefs other wise stone them to death

I COMMAND you to shut your face!
God shalt not rest until you repent or BURN IN HELL!!!
I shall now turn the other cheek and await your response...

paladin - I think you need to check your definition of neighbor against Christs. He defined it as anyone you come into contact with, including someone who hates your very existence. It seems that autoload may need to check this out as well.

[satanspaladin]

Shut your face.

i think its my voice you like to stop.not surprising with the christians attitude of love thy neighbor as thee
would love thy self as long as thay have the same beliefs other wise stone them to death

I COMMAND you to shut your face!
God shalt not rest until you repent or BURN IN HELL!!!
I shall now turn the other cheek and await your response...

paladin - I think you need to check your definition of neighbor against Christs. He defined it as anyone you come into contact with, including someone who hates your very existence. It seems that autoload may need to check this out as well.

you are most probably right as stated before not a reader of the bible. just know am all way geting told that i will burn in hell for my life style am a lesbian .so if i am going to burn may as well give the devil a helping hand .he gets the most appalling press and he works so diligently

[beezer]

On this whole "The Pope is the beast" thing, I was thinking that perhaps Santa Claus was the beast. I mean, he replaces Jesus as the main character of the holiday, he introduces all sorts of herectical practices and if you move the n to the end of his first name...

Do you still doubt me now, Ambrose?

[2dimes]

Mr Nate

You may well be right that Sunday was a practical and convenient time for early Christians to meet/worship,cant see though that that was still the case centuries later when the church formalised the arrangement. Regardless of this surely though it was Gods edict that the 7th day( sabbath ) was the day of rest and mere pragmatism does not alter that, you may attend church and worship whenever you wish but as I see it working on a Saturday contravines Gods explicit wish.
Actually I think all religions need to evolve in order to survive and grow strong so the church made a good move in distancing itself from Judaism,simply find it amusing that some are happy to accept Sunday as the Sabbath yet insist on literal interpretation of the Old Testament at the same time.

That's true, the law has not been changed and it remains as a solid base for learning about God. The ten comandments are still good rules to try and live by.

Saturday is still the sabbath regardless of opinion, popular or otherwise.

One problem is in our fallen state is that the law is imposible to keep perfectly. One of the people in the new testament part of the bible that kept it better than most was Saul. In the mean time he was kind of cruising around slaughtering the early Christians.

The problem is instead of making an effort to make sure "I" am folowing the rules. I will spend more and more time trying to "help" everyone else follow them. Next thing I'm setting traps and defining the rules to try and "get ya!".

Not good when the point of them was to help me be kind and seek God through obediance. The people that were historically great at keeping the law couldn't even agree and seperated into two main groups, niether of the two even exists 2007 years later.

Jesus came and told us two things regarding Old Testament law. First that he came to complete it not destroy it and second that the whole thing is summed up by the Golden rule.

[mr. incrediball]

On this whole "The Pope is the beast" thing, I was thinking that perhaps Santa Claus was the beast. I mean, he replaces Jesus as the main character of the holiday, he introduces all sorts of herectical practices and if you move the n to the end of his first name...

Do you still doubt me now, Ambrose?

satan coming down my chimney doesn't sound too appealing...

[MeDeFe]

oh, I don't know, it'd be quite an experience, and imagine the devil wearing a red robe and having a big white beard going "ho, ho, ho".