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whats your stance?

 
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Postby vtmarik on Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:48 am

chewyman wrote:Believe it or not the first World War didn't actually begin when America joined in. WW1 was a colonial war in which the central powers (especially Germany) wanted to increase their colonial powers and Great Britain wanted to maintain the status quo (the British Commonwealth being the largest empire the world has ever seen). All the European powers had isolationist policies that restricted trade to their own respective empires. The desire for gain a larger portion of what seemed at the time to be an infinite expansion of available resources led to conflicts between these enormous colonial empires. So you are right that imperialism was a cause of WW1, but if the empires had been willing to trade amongst each other there would not have been such a level of competition between them. That's a very brief explanation, hope it answers your question for you.


World War I was the result of a series of alliances each having to back up the last as each were dragged down into a war. A Serb (Gavrilo Princip) shot the Austrio-Hungarian Archduke, so Germany (allied with Austrio-Hungary) declared war on serbia, then Russia (allied with Serbia) declared war on Germany, then everyone allied with Germany declared war on Russia and we were dragged into it because we had an alliance with most of europe.

The true isolationist period in the US only began after WWI, as people were not interested in being dragged into a war because of alliance.
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Postby chewyman on Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:44 am

The assassination of Franz Ferdinand is not the cause of WW1, it was just a spark that lit a hundred different barrels of gunpowder that had been building for a long time. You'd be hard pressed to actually find a credible historian who believes Ferdinand's assassination without any other precursors would have started WW1. Protectionist policies were one of the most important barrels (and as you also point out, played a role in the Great Depression and WW2). Anyway, this thread has absolutely nothing to do with WW1, I just brought it up as one of the reasons I was against isolationist policies.
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Postby vtmarik on Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:25 am

chewyman wrote:The assassination of Franz Ferdinand is not the cause of WW1, it was just a spark that lit a hundred different barrels of gunpowder that had been building for a long time. You'd be hard pressed to actually find a credible historian who believes Ferdinand's assassination without any other precursors would have started WW1. Protectionist policies were one of the most important barrels (and as you also point out, played a role in the Great Depression and WW2). Anyway, this thread has absolutely nothing to do with WW1, I just brought it up as one of the reasons I was against isolationist policies.


The sequence of alliances that was set up by the various nations in Europe was the root cause of the war, yes. The assassination was the catalyst that sent the whole thing tumbling down.

Isolationist policies, at least in the US, didn't start until after WWI when the American people didn't want to be dragged into a massive conflict because an ally was attacked. These policies ended on Dec. 7, 1941 for all intents and purposes.

We can't afford to be isolationist anymore, since we've acknowledged our purpose as a player in world affairs.

As for the government system that we have in place, I think one can look back through history at the Articles of Confederacy to see that we do need a centralized federal government at the top of the heap.
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:24 am

Believe it or not the first World War didn't actually begin when America joined in. WW1 was a colonial war in which the central powers (especially Germany) wanted to increase their colonial powers and Great Britain wanted to maintain the status quo (the British Commonwealth being the largest empire the world has ever seen). All the European powers had isolationist policies that restricted trade to their own respective empires. The desire for gain a larger portion of what seemed at the time to be an infinite expansion of available resources led to conflicts between these enormous colonial empires. So you are right that imperialism was a cause of WW1, but if the empires had been willing to trade amongst each other there would not have been such a level of competition between them. That's a very brief explanation, hope it answers your question for you.


I know that, hence the second paragraph of my previous post.

In any event, while your point about trade is well-taken, you can hardly call imperialism an isolationist policy. Imperialism is a policy which inevitably and obviously will lead to entanglement with other nations. If we can agree that the creation of European Empires is largely what caused the first world war, then by connection it was caused by expansionist, not isolationist, tendencies.

For federalism to exist there must be multiple local governments and one central administrative one. If there are multiple local governments where just one is enough then that obviously means there are an excess of bureaucrats and a confusion of laws between states. Thus, federalism is less efficient because you have more people doing exactly the same work. Do you honestly believe the varying laws in different states represent the true wishes of those state's citizens? Wealthy citizens just travel to a state that legalises something they wish to do while poorer ones are forced to either do it illegally or not at all. Admittedly there are some laws that are genuinely different, others (the vast majority, such as road laws) are just needlessly complicated by federalism.


There's fallacy in that argument- yes, you have people doing the same TYPE of work, but I can guarantee that the mayor of New York is doing different work from the mayor of LA. What's more, it's clear that the state legislature of Alaska has different priorities on what kind of laws to pass than that of Hawaii.

For instance, let's take the latter case. A SINGLE federal government would have to deal with issues pertaining only to one region ONE THING AT A TIME. Do you understand how much this would muddle the legislative process? Let's say the issue involved the hunting of caribou or something specific to Alaska. You're wasting the ONE and ONLY legislature's time with dealing with an issue that only affects one state! Now imagine if you get 50 such specific issues. Pretty soon the legislature is clogged with these nitpicky issues which only cover certain parts of the map. That's INEFFICIENT! No, far better that we have state governments. That way, all 50 of those state-specific laws can be passed at once instead of one at a time, and they won't get in the way of laws which affect the entire geography of the united states (which is what the feds are supposed to do.)

Isolationist policies, at least in the US, didn't start until after WWI when the American people didn't want to be dragged into a massive conflict because an ally was attacked. These policies ended on Dec. 7, 1941 for all intents and purposes.


I'm gonna disagree on that one. America had been isolationist since basically day one, with a few exceptions, and then a major break in policy on the parts of our well-known imperialist presidents, but mostly the post-WWI streak of isolationism was a result of what you said, a desire not to fall into the trap that europe did in making a bunch of alliances.
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Postby spurgistan on Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:01 am

Just as far as the above posts go, first off, America had not really been isolationist for some time; while we hadn't tangoed with the European powers in a while, we were doing plenty of international shenaniganing on our own two continents (Manifest Destiny, 2 wars (not including the american civil war) etc.) And even if Gavrilo Princip hadn't assassinated Ferdinand, Europe at the time was looking for an excuse to start a war; they would have figured out some other pretense, or maybe just fought the Great War for the hell of it (they did anyways...)

But back to the American political scene: Paul is getting to be something of a media darling because of his maverick position on an unpopular war. This is not something new to the American political scene (see McGovern, George S. ; or for a more telling indication of what's going to happen to Paul, see Dean, Howard) The most frustrating thing for me is that the Democratic field doesn't suck this year. There are viable antiwar alternatives in the Democratic field, but Paul is getting play because his stance is unique for Republicans. To say I'm irked is obviously something of an understatement. Sorry about longeness/repetitiveness.
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Postby vtmarik on Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:49 pm

spurgistan wrote:Just as far as the above posts go, first off, America had not really been isolationist for some time; while we hadn't tangoed with the European powers in a while, we were doing plenty of international shenaniganing on our own two continents (Manifest Destiny, 2 wars (not including the american civil war) etc.) And even if Gavrilo Princip hadn't assassinated Ferdinand, Europe at the time was looking for an excuse to start a war; they would have figured out some other pretense, or maybe just fought the Great War for the hell of it (they did anyways...)

But back to the American political scene: Paul is getting to be something of a media darling because of his maverick position on an unpopular war. This is not something new to the American political scene (see McGovern, George S. ; or for a more telling indication of what's going to happen to Paul, see Dean, Howard) The most frustrating thing for me is that the Democratic field doesn't suck this year. There are viable antiwar alternatives in the Democratic field, but Paul is getting play because his stance is unique for Republicans. To say I'm irked is obviously something of an understatement. Sorry about longeness/repetitiveness.


It's scary because the only reason he's getting all of this attention is because of the R after his name and not his policies themselves.

They're more focused on the "dissension in the ranks" than on the man himself.

Still think he's the genuine article?
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:07 pm

vtmarik wrote:
spurgistan wrote:Just as far as the above posts go, first off, America had not really been isolationist for some time; while we hadn't tangoed with the European powers in a while, we were doing plenty of international shenaniganing on our own two continents (Manifest Destiny, 2 wars (not including the american civil war) etc.) And even if Gavrilo Princip hadn't assassinated Ferdinand, Europe at the time was looking for an excuse to start a war; they would have figured out some other pretense, or maybe just fought the Great War for the hell of it (they did anyways...)

But back to the American political scene: Paul is getting to be something of a media darling because of his maverick position on an unpopular war. This is not something new to the American political scene (see McGovern, George S. ; or for a more telling indication of what's going to happen to Paul, see Dean, Howard) The most frustrating thing for me is that the Democratic field doesn't suck this year. There are viable antiwar alternatives in the Democratic field, but Paul is getting play because his stance is unique for Republicans. To say I'm irked is obviously something of an understatement. Sorry about longeness/repetitiveness.


It's scary because the only reason he's getting all of this attention is because of the R after his name and not his policies themselves.

They're more focused on the "dissension in the ranks" than on the man himself.

Still think he's the genuine article?


Why not? Is it impossible to believe that there is a Republican who is against the war in Iraq? Paul has been speaking against the war in Iraq since it began, this isn't some election tactic. Call it an election bonus.

Yes, the fact is that he is getting plenty of attention because he is following a belief which most politicians in his party don't agree with but let's face it- more than HALF of Republican voters don't support the war of Iraq either. There is no reason to accuse Paul of being a fraud based on this. He's just riding the wave of anti-Iraq sentiment. It's not HIM- like I said, the he's been anti-Iraq since day 1- it's just that the political winds now favor him.

Which is a perfect reason why he should get the nom. I really think he's the only Republican that can win.
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Postby vtmarik on Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:11 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:Why not? Is it impossible to believe that there is a Republican who is against the war in Iraq? Paul has been speaking against the war in Iraq since it began, this isn't some election tactic. Call it an election bonus.


I don't doubt the strength of his convictions, I just don't trust anyone who wants to be in power. I guess that kind of colors my opinions.

Yes, the fact is that he is getting plenty of attention because he is following a belief which most politicians in his party don't agree with but let's face it- more than HALF of Republican voters don't support the war of Iraq either. There is no reason to accuse Paul of being a fraud based on this. He's just riding the wave of anti-Iraq sentiment. It's not HIM- like I said, the he's been anti-Iraq since day 1- it's just that the political winds now favor him.

Which is a perfect reason why he should get the nom. I really think he's the only Republican that can win.


I just wish there could be a third-party candidate like Paul who could run and get the same publicity for having the same beliefs since day 1 too.

My idealism is flagging in the face of jaded dissatisfaction, maybe I need a vacation abroad to remind me how great and lucky i'm supposed to feel about living here.

It's very depressing.
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Postby Anarchist on Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:28 pm

lol,always loved sarcasm.

I do like his policies and do think they are best for America, However the problem I see is that he will only be able to make some changes, but not all of them. This would end up making AmeriKa stronger then it already is.

I fully understand the resentment towards people who want to lead, I dont trust any of the candidates either.(for the record he has ran under libertarian) Would be nice if he was the snake in the grass...(though I doubt it)

I believe in local soveriegnity through federations, non of this federal represents all bullshit.
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:33 pm

I don't doubt the strength of his convictions, I just don't trust anyone who wants to be in power. I guess that kind of colors my opinions.


You're going to have a tough time finding a politician who doesn't want to be in power.

I just wish there could be a third-party candidate like Paul who could run and get the same publicity for having the same beliefs since day 1 too.

My idealism is flagging in the face of jaded dissatisfaction, maybe I need a vacation abroad to remind me how great and lucky i'm supposed to feel about living here.

It's very depressing.


Unless I'm much mistaken, Paul is a registered libertarian who has run on the Republican ticket. Fact is, third party candidacies aren't practical, so why not give a registered third party candidate a major-party nomination? Seems to work for me.

Furthermore, the libertarians have agreed not to field a candidate if Paul gets the Republican nom, and that's one less major third party to suck votes off of the Republican candidate- an advantage the Democrats might not have (Nader in the election of 2000 anyone?).
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Postby d.gishman on Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:42 pm

I'm actually very interested in Ron Paul's views. He's a very different Republican, which is interesting to see. However, I doubt that his own party will actually nominate him (he'd probably have a better chance with the democratic party, i think)

I saw his interview on the colbert report actually, and I was a little confused. He wants to get rid of the Department of Education, FEMA, and the UN??? Well, FEMA i can kind of understand, as it needs restructuring, but I don't think FEMA should go away. Sorry, but I don't fully understand his stance on small government.. maybe someone can explain that to me..

Also, for the United States to be an Isolationist state doesn't make any sense to me. The US is the world's largest superpower, and it makes more sense to me for them to be trying to help other countries with that power rather than just sit and get richer and richer... Think about this: should the US be an isolationist state when something like Rwanda comes around? (Darfur comes to mind)
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Postby Anarchist on Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:27 am

The way I understand it is; organisations like dept of education depend on tax dollars and for one reason or another have a very poor performance rate. The American public education system is pathetic compared to European standards. Things such as standardised testing are only encouraging lower expectations instead of promoting higher results.
(poor results= less funds)

(.V. as I understand it)
When the United States government was founded the federal government had basicly one job. Protect America(which they have failed to do) While it was the states job(local government) to establish laws within each individual state(hence the United States) However as history has progressed the federal government has become more involved in passing laws and enforcing them throughout the country(Civil War)

An example of this is the continued arrests for marijuana(medical?) by the federal Government even though its legal in the state of California.

Hes not an isolationist, He just wants to pull back our troops from the 140 countries were influencing and focus on defending America from our enemies abroad(many of which we have made for ourselves)
The Missle defense shield near Russia being a recent example. Most of the US"humanitarian interventions" have been more driven for private interests.(not all) Else we would already be involved in Darfur and Tibet.
Ofcourse they have nothing of use to us, and neither have agreed to the strings that would be attached.
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Postby spurgistan on Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:56 pm

Just as an aside; did you just say the Civil War was a bad thing? It was a refutation of state's rights, sure, but when that state right is the right for humans to hold other human in bondage... er, i won't go any farther with that.
And as another aside, look at his campaign front page. The lower right corner. Tell me the guys a moderate conservative, even someone a liberal can throw his support behind (sure, it's a campaign website. but Ronnie does look really happy to see him)

And yeah, American foreign affairs are rarely altruistic in nature. That won't change under a Paul administration, we'll still be interested in foreign affairs primarily for access to resources and geopolitics. It's the nature of the beast. However, we have the wagging finger that is the UN telling us when we shouldn't be doing something, and even if we often ignore them anyways, they're usually there to pick up the pieces. If Paul nukes the UN as promised, we'll have lost that moral voice telling us when we shouldn't do stuff.
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Postby Anarchist on Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:51 pm

No, I dont agree with slavery. If it were up to me human trafficing(slavery) would be the number one priority of the "police"
I was just pointing it out as one of the negative consequences of the Civil War. However If Lincoln hadnt been assasinated the North would have had a much more cooperative relation with the South.

ill check the site to see what your talking about...

Good point on the foreign policy and the UN morality appeal. Question is would Paul as president strengthen the Police State or weaken it?

EDIT: Oh Reagon, not to gald about that either, everyone makes mistakes :wink:
Last edited by Anarchist on Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:05 am

spurgistan wrote:If Paul nukes the UN as promised, we'll have lost that moral voice telling us when we shouldn't do stuff.


Are you insinuating the the UN is a moral voice?

:lol:

Anarchist wrote:Good point on the foreign policy and the UN morality appeal. Question is would Paul as president strengthen the Police State or weaken it?


He's a libertarian and against the Patriot Act. Shouldn't take more than one synapse to figure that out ;)
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Postby spurgistan on Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:48 am

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
spurgistan wrote:If Paul nukes the UN as promised, we'll have lost that moral voice telling us when we shouldn't do stuff.


Are you insinuating the the UN is a moral voice?

:lol:

Anarchist wrote:Good point on the foreign policy and the UN morality appeal. Question is would Paul as president strengthen the Police State or weaken it?


He's a libertarian and against the Patriot Act. Shouldn't take more than one synapse to figure that out ;)


When compared with the foreign policies of the nations that comprise it, yeah, I'd say the UN tends to act in a more altrusitic manner. Doesn't say much for it in its present state, but it could be doing a worse job of preventing crises and stuff (and does a better job than if it didn't exist)
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Postby Coleman on Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:06 pm

I'm sure this appears to be grave digging to most of you, but I believe somewhere on these forums I made a mistake and identified myself as a supporter of Obama for the 2008 presidential race. Mostly because I considered a republican victory impossible, and Obama represented my views the most closely of the democratic candidates.

This is no longer true. As of today I fully support Ron Paul.
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:15 pm

Coleman wrote:I'm sure this appears to be grave digging to most of you, but I believe somewhere on these forums I made a mistake and identified myself as a supporter of Obama for the 2008 presidential race. Mostly because I considered a republican victory impossible, and Obama represented my views the most closely of the democratic candidates.

This is no longer true. As of today I fully support Ron Paul.


God bless you!

I've been out of touch with the news for awhile now, did something happen which has made Ron Paul's chances look good? He's been my favorite for about a year now, but I've never figured he had a chance at the nomination...
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