Question for the Religious Types

[jay_a2j]

Does God need faith to survive? <Not a trick question, just wondering>

Heb11:1 Now faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see.


Since God is all-knowing He has no reason to have faith in anything since all is here because of Him.

[unriggable]

Since God is all-knowing He has no reason to have faith in anything since all is here because of Him.

Except the big bang, every star and every planet in the universe, every animal to ever exist, and lastly, us.

[Huckleberryhound]

So, you're trying to suggest that god Created man, makes him suffer, and judges him his reaction to this devine torment . . .because he was lonely

God is indeed a bastard.

No, he created us to live in the garden of eden.

Where we'd be happy, then our dumb*ss ancestors f*cked it up...

But the bible says that God knows everything that is, has been and is going to be ... so he must've known that Adam was going to take the apple.

So again, it comes back to God being a complete arsehole.

OK, its not that God couldnt, he just might have chose not to. To let us be FREE to DO AS WE CHOSE. Instead of God changing everything all the time. God gave us freedom, and we chose not to take.

God (your god), as i read it, didn't give us all free choice to live in eden, he gave Adam and eve that choice, we have just suffered from that choice ever since - and, if you think about it, he didn't even give them the choice either. God punished his creations for making a decision that he designed them to fail at.....i've said this in a similar discussion before...pretty terrible thing to do - to design the board, decide the rules, then punish the pieces for playing the game.

[luns101]

That's odd- I've been asked by several of my Protestant friends to pray for them. Most of the Protestants in the JF forum have made a post in the prayer requests thread at some time or another.

Not to mention, in the Bible, James encourages us to pray to one another.

..and don't think it wasn't appreciated.

[Blastshot]

So, you're trying to suggest that god Created man, makes him suffer, and judges him his reaction to this devine torment . . .because he was lonely

God is indeed a bastard.

No, he created us to live in the garden of eden.

Where we'd be happy, then our dumb*ss ancestors f*cked it up...

But the bible says that God knows everything that is, has been and is going to be ... so he must've known that Adam was going to take the apple.

So again, it comes back to God being a complete arsehole.

OK, its not that God couldnt, he just might have chose not to. To let us be FREE to DO AS WE CHOSE. Instead of God changing everything all the time. God gave us freedom, and we chose not to take.

God (your god), as i read it, didn't give us all free choice to live in eden, he gave Adam and eve that choice, we have just suffered from that choice ever since - and, if you think about it, he didn't even give them the choice either. God punished his creations for making a decision that he designed them to fail at.....i've said this in a similar discussion before...pretty terrible thing to do - to design the board, decide the rules, then punish the pieces for playing the game.

Ah, but yes, he designed the board, but he made it to were th players are intelligent, and had not the snake(satan) interfered, we would be in a lovely place right now. Remember, they were "kids" as it were then, AKA very gullible. We had the choice, we didnt choose the right answer. All got did is tempt them, satan convinced them.

[Huckleberryhound]

So, you're trying to suggest that god Created man, makes him suffer, and judges him his reaction to this devine torment . . .because he was lonely

God is indeed a bastard.

No, he created us to live in the garden of eden.

Where we'd be happy, then our dumb*ss ancestors f*cked it up...

But the bible says that God knows everything that is, has been and is going to be ... so he must've known that Adam was going to take the apple.

So again, it comes back to God being a complete arsehole.

OK, its not that God couldnt, he just might have chose not to. To let us be FREE to DO AS WE CHOSE. Instead of God changing everything all the time. God gave us freedom, and we chose not to take.

God (your god), as i read it, didn't give us all free choice to live in eden, he gave Adam and eve that choice, we have just suffered from that choice ever since - and, if you think about it, he didn't even give them the choice either. God punished his creations for making a decision that he designed them to fail at.....i've said this in a similar discussion before...pretty terrible thing to do - to design the board, decide the rules, then punish the pieces for playing the game.

Ah, but yes, he designed the board, but he made it to were th players are intelligent, and had not the snake(satan) interfered, we would be in a lovely place right now. Remember, they were "kids" as it were then, AKA very gullible. We had the choice, we didnt choose the right answer. All got did is tempt them, satan convinced them.

But God created satan, so it's entirely God's fault that eve was tempted in the first place. . . even new york has a three strikes rule

[MR. Nate]

God created Satan good, but Satan chose to become evil. Thus the term "Fallen angel"

Satan chose evil, then tempted humanity to chose evil. How is that God's fault? Because He gave them the choice?

[Huckleberryhound]

God created Satan good, but Satan chose to become evil. Thus the term "Fallen angel"

Satan chose evil, then tempted humanity to chose evil. How is that God's fault? Because He gave them the choice?

Like i said before....This version of God....created the playing field, then created the pitfall, then created players designed to fall into the pitfall (lets be clear, a 5 day old chick will look for direction from a rubber glove if it is taken away from it's nurturing parents).....then decides to throw his creation out of the garden of eden as punishment, and thus damning a googleplex-trillion of their ancestors to disease, death and torment.

What a groovy guy....not.

[Blastshot]

God created Satan good, but Satan chose to become evil. Thus the term "Fallen angel"

Satan chose evil, then tempted humanity to chose evil. How is that God's fault? Because He gave them the choice?

Like i said before....This version of God....created the playing field, then created the pitfall, then created players designed to fall into the pitfall (lets be clear, a 5 day old chick will look for direction from a rubber glove if it is taken away from it's nurturing parents).....then decides to throw his creation out of the garden of eden as punishment, and thus damning a googleplex-trillion of their ancestors to disease, death and torment.

What a groovy guy....not.

What part of "He gave us the power to choose" arent u getting, satan CHOSE to be evil, God didnt intervene, as he was letting satan be free. He created adam and eve, then CHOSE to sin, God didnt intervene as he was letting us be free.

There is no point in there that is Gods fault, we screwed up. Not God

[Huckleberryhound]

God created Satan good, but Satan chose to become evil. Thus the term "Fallen angel"

Satan chose evil, then tempted humanity to chose evil. How is that God's fault? Because He gave them the choice?

Like i said before....This version of God....created the playing field, then created the pitfall, then created players designed to fall into the pitfall (lets be clear, a 5 day old chick will look for direction from a rubber glove if it is taken away from it's nurturing parents).....then decides to throw his creation out of the garden of eden as punishment, and thus damning a googleplex-trillion of their ancestors to disease, death and torment.

What a groovy guy....not.

What part of "He gave us the power to choose" arent u getting, satan CHOSE to be evil, God didnt intervene, as he was letting satan be free. He created adam and eve, then CHOSE to sin, God didnt intervene as he was letting us be free.

There is no point in there that is Gods fault, we screwed up. Not God

I don't know about you, but i never ate any apple, don't blame me for your version of creation gone wrong. He never gave me the choice between my own fruitful paradise where i never want for anything, and a life of soap operas and Paris Hilton....I'm telling you, i'd be like "Screw the apple, i'll just have unicorn and fries, like last night".

God created satan....i rest my case.

[Blastshot]

God created Satan good, but Satan chose to become evil. Thus the term "Fallen angel"

Satan chose evil, then tempted humanity to chose evil. How is that God's fault? Because He gave them the choice?

Like i said before....This version of God....created the playing field, then created the pitfall, then created players designed to fall into the pitfall (lets be clear, a 5 day old chick will look for direction from a rubber glove if it is taken away from it's nurturing parents).....then decides to throw his creation out of the garden of eden as punishment, and thus damning a googleplex-trillion of their ancestors to disease, death and torment.

What a groovy guy....not.

What part of "He gave us the power to choose" arent u getting, satan CHOSE to be evil, God didnt intervene, as he was letting satan be free. He created adam and eve, then CHOSE to sin, God didnt intervene as he was letting us be free.

There is no point in there that is Gods fault, we screwed up. Not God

I don't know about you, but i never ate any apple, don't blame me for your version of creation gone wrong. He never gave me the choice between my own fruitful paradise where i never want for anything, and a life of soap operas and Paris Hilton....I'm telling you, i'd be like "Screw the apple, i'll just have unicorn and fries, like last night".

God created satan....i rest my case.

I might as well quit cuz im not making any progress

[luns101]

I might as well quit cuz im not making any progress

Don't get discouraged by rhetorical smokescreens.

[Jenos Ridan]

But then why did he create us?

Well, the simple answer is His is loving, creating God who wanted to have people who'd love him in return. Again, it would be alittle lonely if there was nothing but you and the choir of angels, no? But if He wanted us to love Him, why didn't he make us robots that have to love him. Because that defeats the propose of making us people. Love (in the context of worship) is not a ritual that could be hard-wired into the human brain and nervous system, but a truelly emotion-based heart desire. What is why we are here.

[MR. Nate]

I don't know about you, but i never ate any apple, don't blame me for your version of creation gone wrong. He never gave me the choice between my own fruitful paradise where i never want for anything, and a life of soap operas and Paris Hilton....

Except you are rejecting paradise by rejecting Christ's redemptive work.

God created satan....i rest my case.

He created an angel, with free will, who rebelled against Him. Just like He created you, with free will, and you rebelled against him.

[unriggable]

I don't know about you, but i never ate any apple, don't blame me for your version of creation gone wrong. He never gave me the choice between my own fruitful paradise where i never want for anything, and a life of soap operas and Paris Hilton....

Except you are rejecting paradise by rejecting Christ's redemptive work.

What exactly did Christ do that MLK, Ghandi and others did not? How is he in his mortal life any greater?

[heavycola]

He created an angel, with free will, who rebelled against Him. Just like He created you, with free will, and you rebelled against him.

The best parties are in Hell. In fact the only parties are in hell. Either i join the circle of life or i spend the rest of eternity getting buff, learning the guitar to perfection, shagging everything and getting drunk. now i see that sounds slightly like prison, but a fun one.

[MR. Nate]

What exactly did Christ do that MLK, Ghandi and others did not? How is he in his mortal life any greater?

He wasn't simply a social reformer, He lived a perfect life. That means not a single sin.

The best parties are in Hell. In fact the only parties are in hell. Either i join the circle of life or i spend the rest of eternity getting buff, learning the guitar to perfection, shagging everything and getting drunk. now i see that sounds slightly like prison, but a fun one.

Actually, a in a Biblical theology of Hell, eternity there would be spent without companionship, more like solitary confinement, in the darkness, but with heat so intense that you feel like your burning. Heaven, however, has social interaction, lots of food, and huge houses.

[Blastshot]

He created an angel, with free will, who rebelled against Him. Just like He created you, with free will, and you rebelled against him.

The best parties are in Hell. In fact the only parties are in hell. Either i join the circle of life or i spend the rest of eternity getting buff, learning the guitar to perfection, shagging everything and getting drunk. now i see that sounds slightly like prison, but a fun one.

This is a quote from a christian i once heard:
"Eat hardy in life, for in hell there are huge tables of food yes, but the forks are to long for anyone to use to eat with. SO you go hungry. But, the same thing is in heaven. But in heaven, instead of starving, we use the long forks to feed each other. While in hell, no one eats."
Now thats a metaphor if you dont understand it. In hell no one can help others, so they are forced to a lonely life. In heaven, we rejoice in numbers, truly, together forever with God.

[luns101]

What exactly did Christ do that MLK, Ghandi and others did not?

1. Claimed to be God
2. Performed miracles
3. Forgave peoples' sins
4. Rose from the dead
5. Never sinned

...but of course, I know you've previously stated that you don't believe any of that happened. I'm just curious...when you're asking a question, do you honestly want a Christian to answer it? Sometimes when I answer things it comes off like I'm being rude and I don't want to do that.

[The Kurgan]

What exactly did Christ do that MLK, Ghandi and others did not?

1. Claimed to be God
2. Performed miracles
3. Forgave peoples' sins
4. Rose from the dead
5. Never sinned

...but of course, I know you've previously stated that you don't believe any of that happened. I'm just curious...when you're asking a question, do you honestly want a Christian to answer it? Sometimes when I answer things it comes off like I'm being rude and I don't want to do that.

I beleive SOME of it -

1. Yep
2. No
3. Yes.......
4. No
5. He did. He got angry and through a bunch of people out of church.

[luns101]

I beleive SOME of it -

1. Yep
2. No
3. Yes.......
4. No
5. He did. He got angry and through a bunch of people out of church.

I think you meant synagogue for #5. The church didn't start until Pentecost.

Anyway, anger against sin is not a sin in and of itself. But since you don't believe that Jesus was acutally God then I can see why you would think he did something wrong.

[The Kurgan]

I beleive SOME of it -

1. Yep
2. No
3. Yes.......
4. No
5. He did. He got angry and through a bunch of people out of church.

I think you meant synagogue for #5. The church didn't start until Pentecost.

Anyway, anger against sin is not a sin in and of itself. But since you don't believe that Jesus was acutally God then I can see why you would think he did something wrong.

Thanks for the correction.
But I thought Jesus was meant to be angry at the SIN, not the people.
He was pretty mad at the people.

[luns101]

You know what, I think I'm wrong as well for #5. I have to go check again. I haven't read that scripture in awhile. BRB.

-EDIT- ...here we go:

"Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves." - Matthew 21:12

At least we both know where it happened now!

But I thought Jesus was meant to be angry at the SIN, not the people. He was pretty mad at the people.

Probably because some Christians have used the cliche - "Love the sinner, hate the sin" so much. But if you don't believe that Jesus is in fact, God in the flesh...it stands to reason that you would also think that he didn't have the right to perform that act of righteous indignation.

[daddy1gringo]

...in hell there are huge tables of food yes, but the forks are to long for anyone to use to eat with. SO you go hungry. But, the same thing is in heaven. But in heaven, instead of starving, we use the long forks to feed each other. While in hell, no one eats."
Now thats a metaphor if you dont understand it. In hell no one can help others, so they are forced to a lonely life. In heaven, we rejoice in numbers, truly, together forever with God.

I once heard an addition to that. The person who was being shown the situation in hell and then in heaven asks permission to go back to hell and help them. He goes and explains to the hungry people in hell that they could do like the people in heaven and all feed each other. Each person takes a hard look at someone next to them and replies, "That hypocrite? I'd rather starve!"

[The Kurgan]

You know what, I think I'm wrong as well for #5. I have to go check again. I haven't read that scripture in awhile. BRB.

-EDIT- ...here we go:

"Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves." - Matthew 21:12

At least we both know where it happened now!

But I thought Jesus was meant to be angry at the SIN, not the people. He was pretty mad at the people.

Probably because some Christians have used the cliche - "Love the sinner, hate the sin" so much. But if you don't believe that Jesus is in fact, God in the flesh...it stands to reason that you would also think that he didn't have the right to perform that act of righteous indignation.

I know, I'm just theorizing.
I really hope that theorizing is a word...