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Question for the Religious Types

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Postby Huckleberryhound on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:14 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Surely the only thing that matters is the worship of, and love of Christ, and God ??


It's a lot easier to love Christ when he's right there physically in front of you. You wouldn't believe the amazing effects the Eucharist has on people. I described a Catholic retreat I went on in the JF forums- to summarize, there's a lot of joyous crying, laughing, speaking in tongues, and fainting. No matter what the physical reaction, though, the result is the same after every session of adoration- an increased love of God.

Anywho, all the complaints you have are common enough, so I'll give you the rudimentary answers.

a) all the idols in the churches, saint, the virgin mary, and similar False idols that you pray to. This seems strange because God himself told you all not to.


We don't "pray" to them as we "pray" to God. There is no worship involved. There is certainly respect involved.

In essence, though, we pray for the saints to pray for us. Think of prayer as a form of communication to those in heaven. From the Catholic perspective, asking St. Ambrose to pray for me is the same thing as asking Blastshot to pray for me.

b) The amount of money in the cathedrals creation (and there are some beauties over here in europe), built at a time when the people lived in abject poverty. It is this decedance that spawned the reformation in the first place.


I can't think of a better use of material resources than in glorifying God.

Additionally, there is no shortage of charity done within the Catholic Church. Most religious orders (including nuns and the like) are devoted to such service. There is also no shortage of money donated to such endeavors.

I think both purposes are served quite well, in fact.

In short...if a man worships alone, in a field (which the covenanters had to, so they could practice their faith without persicution), then he is as much in touch with god as someone surrounded by pomp and ceremony.


The Bible disagrees.

Matthew 18:20- For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Prayer is stronger in a group. I've certainly experienced the truth in this statement.

Moreover, how "in touch" someone is with God in certain surroundings has a lot to do with personal preference. It's a lot easier to focus in a place of serenity with a group of like-minded individuals.

Oh, and as for the Catholic church being against the IRA ??? I'm sure that was the official line of the Vatican, but here on the ground was a different matter altogether. It is also worth mentioning that the faith of this once proud catholic country has been sorely tested by the child abuse scandels that the vatican chose to cover up.


And I'm sure those responsible for the coverup, if they have passed on, are burning in hell as we speak.



Dude, i am not even going to start to pick the holes in what you have just written...life is too short. It is obvious that you have a strong faith in the teachings of cathol, i have no wish to question your beliefs.
I made no "complaints" about your church, just observations, so i can only assume that you are on a deeply defensive mode right now as this is the second time you have attributed feelings to me that i don't have.

I do not believe the same as you, as is my right as a free man. When we are dead we will find out who is right or wrong, until then....be good 8)



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Postby Jasona on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:21 pm

I just find it amazing that a lot of people who say they are Christians do not follow many of the teachings Christ taught

take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father. When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you. When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:30 pm

Huckleberryhound wrote:Dude, i am not even going to start to pick the holes in what you have just written...life is too short. It is obvious that you have a strong faith in the teachings of cathol, i have no wish to question your beliefs.


but by all means- question them! It's only through discussions like these that I've become as confident in my faith as I am.

Huckleberryhound wrote:I made no "complaints" about your church, just observations, so i can only assume that you are on a deeply defensive mode right now as this is the second time you have attributed feelings to me that i don't have.


Sorry if it came off like that. I'm not on the defensive at all, I could have copied and pasted those responses off of various discussions I've had or articles I've read. "Complaints" was probably the wrong word to use. :)
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Postby misterman10 on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:32 pm

Jasona wrote:I just find it amazing that a lot of people who say they are Christians do not follow many of the teachings Christ taught


They are not true Christians
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:34 pm

misterman10 wrote:
Jasona wrote:I just find it amazing that a lot of people who say they are Christians do not follow many of the teachings Christ taught


They are not true Christians


I guess none of us are true Christians then. I for one fail to follow Christ's teachings on a regular basis. I especially have trouble loving my more annoying fellowmen as myself.
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Postby Huckleberryhound on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:37 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:Dude, i am not even going to start to pick the holes in what you have just written...life is too short. It is obvious that you have a strong faith in the teachings of cathol, i have no wish to question your beliefs.


but by all means- question them! It's only through discussions like these that I've become as confident in my faith as I am.

Huckleberryhound wrote:I made no "complaints" about your church, just observations, so i can only assume that you are on a deeply defensive mode right now as this is the second time you have attributed feelings to me that i don't have.


Sorry if it came off like that. I'm not on the defensive at all, I could have copied and pasted those responses off of various discussions I've had or articles I've read. "Complaints" was probably the wrong word to use. :)


Why would i want to question your faith ? It is none of my concearn what you believe, as long as it does not infringe on my beliefs.

If i gave you a rosetta stone that proved your faith to be wrong, would it really make you any happier ?
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:40 pm

Huckleberryhound wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:Dude, i am not even going to start to pick the holes in what you have just written...life is too short. It is obvious that you have a strong faith in the teachings of cathol, i have no wish to question your beliefs.


but by all means- question them! It's only through discussions like these that I've become as confident in my faith as I am.

Huckleberryhound wrote:I made no "complaints" about your church, just observations, so i can only assume that you are on a deeply defensive mode right now as this is the second time you have attributed feelings to me that i don't have.


Sorry if it came off like that. I'm not on the defensive at all, I could have copied and pasted those responses off of various discussions I've had or articles I've read. "Complaints" was probably the wrong word to use. :)


Why would i want to question your faith ? It is none of my concearn what you believe, as long as it does not infringe on my beliefs.

If i gave you a rosetta stone that proved your faith to be wrong, would it really make you any happier ?


Well if you're concerned over my happiness, then go ahead and question my beliefs. As a rule, the more my beliefs are questioned, the more I believe in them, because I'm forced to research answers to more questions which usually leaves me more convinced that I'm right ;)

In the event that something proved my wrong, I suppose I wouldn't be particularly happy at first, but life goes on. I used to not believe in evolution, discovered myself to be proven wrong, refined my beliefs, moved on, and I'm all the happier for it now...
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Postby muy_thaiguy on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:40 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
misterman10 wrote:
Jasona wrote:I just find it amazing that a lot of people who say they are Christians do not follow many of the teachings Christ taught


They are not true Christians


I guess none of us are true Christians then. I for one fail to follow Christ's teachings on a regular basis. I especially have trouble loving my more annoying fellowmen as myself.
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Postby Jasona on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:41 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
misterman10 wrote:
Jasona wrote:I just find it amazing that a lot of people who say they are Christians do not follow many of the teachings Christ taught


They are not true Christians


I guess none of us are true Christians then. I for one fail to follow Christ's teachings on a regular basis. I especially have trouble loving my more annoying fellowmen as myself.

The point is that you should at least try. God know's no ones perfect. If you trully try to love your neighbor but find yourself unable to there should be no problem, I to have a few People which I find it hard to even be around half the time. I like to think I try my best to love every one but that is not all ways the case.
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Postby Huckleberryhound on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:41 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:Dude, i am not even going to start to pick the holes in what you have just written...life is too short. It is obvious that you have a strong faith in the teachings of cathol, i have no wish to question your beliefs.


but by all means- question them! It's only through discussions like these that I've become as confident in my faith as I am.

Huckleberryhound wrote:I made no "complaints" about your church, just observations, so i can only assume that you are on a deeply defensive mode right now as this is the second time you have attributed feelings to me that i don't have.


Sorry if it came off like that. I'm not on the defensive at all, I could have copied and pasted those responses off of various discussions I've had or articles I've read. "Complaints" was probably the wrong word to use. :)


Why would i want to question your faith ? It is none of my concearn what you believe, as long as it does not infringe on my beliefs.

If i gave you a rosetta stone that proved your faith to be wrong, would it really make you any happier ?


Well if you're concerned over my happiness, then go ahead and question my beliefs. As a rule, the more my beliefs are questioned, the more I believe in them, because I'm forced to research answers to more questions which usually leaves me more convinced that I'm right ;)

In the event that something proved my wrong, I suppose I wouldn't be particularly happy at first, but life goes on. I used to not believe in evolution, discovered myself to be proven wrong, refined my beliefs, moved on, and I'm all the happier for it now...




I hate to be blunt, but i am too secure in my own beliefs to give a rats arse about yours :lol:
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Postby misterman10 on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:42 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
misterman10 wrote:
Jasona wrote:I just find it amazing that a lot of people who say they are Christians do not follow many of the teachings Christ taught


They are not true Christians


I guess none of us are true Christians then. I for one fail to follow Christ's teachings on a regular basis. I especially have trouble loving my more annoying fellowmen as myself.


No, thats not what I'm saying. Of course Christians don't follow every single thing Jesus teaches on a regular daily basis. We are sinners and will always be sinners.
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:45 pm

Huckleberryhound wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:Dude, i am not even going to start to pick the holes in what you have just written...life is too short. It is obvious that you have a strong faith in the teachings of cathol, i have no wish to question your beliefs.


but by all means- question them! It's only through discussions like these that I've become as confident in my faith as I am.

Huckleberryhound wrote:I made no "complaints" about your church, just observations, so i can only assume that you are on a deeply defensive mode right now as this is the second time you have attributed feelings to me that i don't have.


Sorry if it came off like that. I'm not on the defensive at all, I could have copied and pasted those responses off of various discussions I've had or articles I've read. "Complaints" was probably the wrong word to use. :)


Why would i want to question your faith ? It is none of my concearn what you believe, as long as it does not infringe on my beliefs.

If i gave you a rosetta stone that proved your faith to be wrong, would it really make you any happier ?


Well if you're concerned over my happiness, then go ahead and question my beliefs. As a rule, the more my beliefs are questioned, the more I believe in them, because I'm forced to research answers to more questions which usually leaves me more convinced that I'm right ;)

In the event that something proved my wrong, I suppose I wouldn't be particularly happy at first, but life goes on. I used to not believe in evolution, discovered myself to be proven wrong, refined my beliefs, moved on, and I'm all the happier for it now...




I hate to be blunt, but i am too secure in my own beliefs to give a rats arse about yours :lol:


Then you just wasted a lot of time, lol ;)
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Postby vuDore on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:55 pm

To the point about the Garden of Eden being boring - people wouldn't have the experiences of today to compare to what you all consider boring. The most exciting thing, though, would have been to walk with God in perfect fellowship.

Protestants do believe in the confession of sin - it's a part of repentance. To be able to repent of one's wrong acts, we must admit what we've done and confess them to Jesus, who is our mediator in prayer to God. This is also why Protestants do not pray to other saints to pray for them, as we believe Jesus is the only one that can pray for us. He is the only one we are able to pray to (because He is human like us) and still be worthy to pray to God (because He is perfect).
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:59 pm

Good to see a new face in the conversation :)

vuDore wrote:Protestants do believe in the confession of sin - it's a part of repentance. To be able to repent of one's wrong acts, we must admit what we've done and confess them to Jesus, who is our mediator in prayer to God.


I wrote quite the post on this particular topic in the JF forum. Here it is copied and pasted:

OnlyAmbrose wrote:Alright, as a result of Jehan's request for an explanation on confession (known more formally as the Sacrament of Reconciliation), I'm here to deliver.

This took me well over half an hour to write, so if you're going to respond to it, I'd appreciate it if you'd read the whole thing. :)

It's a well-known fact that Catholics believe that the proper means of forgiveness from sin is through the Sacrament of Reconciliation, which involves the confession of sins to a priest from a contrite heart, so that the priest may then give penance and administer absolution .

Now, those words were bolded for a reason, and that's because they are the four parts of the Sacrament of Reconciliation- I figure that before I start explaining why we believe in it, it would be good to understand what exactly it is. Each part has a purpose, but again, before I go into that, a simple definition of each process will be useful.

So I'll go through each part, starting with the Confession.

This is an easy one, it's exactly what it sounds like. You tell the priest all the sins you have committed since your last good confession that you can remember.

This next part of a confession is not one of the four bolded words, but it is infinitely useful- most priests, after hearing the confession, will then offer advice on how to avoid the sin in the future. Many sins, most especially sins of impurity (pornography, masturbation, premarital sex, etc) and drugs/alcoholism, are addictive and habitual in nature, and need some practical methods to get rid of them in addition to the ever-useful prayer which we all hopefully partake in.

Once the priest has offered this advice, he will ask the individual making the confession to make an Act of Contrition. This is a prayer which takes many forms, but in it's essence it is this:

Act of Contrition wrote:Oh my God, I am sorry for my sins, for they have offended you. I detest them, for I dread losing heaven and suffering the pains of Hell. Not only this, Lord, but most of all because they have offended you, my God, who is all good and deserving of all of my love. I firmly resolve, with your help, to sin no more, to make up for what I have done, and to amend my life.


The words aren't really important. What's important is that the meaning of the words is somehow contained within the sinner's heart. It is not enough to go to confession to receive forgiveness of sins- one must be truly sorry for them, and have every intention of never committing them again. If you're not sorry, or you plan to commit the same sins again, the confession is meaningless. It should therefore be made clear that confession doesn't just automatically relieve you of your sins- there must be conscious and humble sorrow in your heart.

Next was penance. A common misconception about penance is that it is soley punishment- though in a way, it is punishment. But it is far more profound than that- it is a way of healing oneself in a constructive manner. Usually it will involve something which will help the sinner prevent himself from sinning in the future.

Say, for instance, someone has committed the sin of adultery. After confessing it, a priest may give the penance of praying to God for the virtue of fidelity. Constructive and helpful. Healing, in a word.

Next on my list was absolution. This is the part where the priest wields the power granted to him by Christ himself (I'll get to why we believe he has this power and how/when/why Christ gave it to him later on in this post) to cleanse the soul of the sinner from sin. The Rite of Absolution sounds like this:

Rite of Absolution wrote:God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.


Then it's over. You're clean. You leave the confessional with the most amazing feeling in your heart which you really have to experience to understand.

Now that we understand what a confession is, I'll go into why we believe in it. I've never tried explaining it this way, but I think I'll go into explaining each part individually.

So, starting again with confession, as in the specific act of telling someone your sins. Why is it important that we don't keep our sins private?

There's actually a very biblical reason that your sins be confessed. It's written right there in scripture.

James 5:16 wrote:Therefore, confess your sins to one another, that you may be healed.


James then goes on to say that it is useful to have prayers on your side to heal you from your sins as well, but the point in this particular verse is clear:

Confessing sins to another human being is a healing experience. Which it is. It really does feel good to say these things out loud, to get them off your chest. Not just that, but they allow the person you're confessing to to give you advice on how to prevent this sin from occurring again. All in all, confession of sins IS a healing experience.

That being said, there is absolutely no weight behind the oft-held Protestant viewpoint that "your sins are just between you and God." James is pretty clear that they're not- he commands us to confess to one another.

Another reason why we confess to other humans is that our sins don't only hurt God- they hurt the community. They hurt the CHURCH here on earth. No sinful act, big or small, is without its effects on the Church here on earth. The priest is a representative of that Church. In the very early church, confessions were public and in front of the entire community, but eventually it was determined that a priest could represent that community well enough.

Now granted, James does not specify to whom you must confess. He simply says to confess. I'll get to why we confess to priests later. But in the meantime, the point I'm asking you to take from this is that the Bible clearly states that confessing to others is a healing thing to do.

That is why we Confess. But why must we be contrite?

Common sense. I think we can agree that you have to be sorry to be forgiven. So moving on...

Why do we practice penance?

This one's also common sense. It's good for you. You can never pray too much, and the prayers given to you in penance are always geared toward your particular needs. I don't think we have much to disagree on in this point either, so moving on.

This is the big one, which is where we probably differ most. Why do we need a priest for absolution?

This one is also scripturally based.

I'll be discussing John 20:21-23. Again, some context is useful. This is after Jesus has died- he's appearing to His disciples as the resurrected Lord. Here's the passage:

John 20:21-23 wrote:21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."


Pretty straightforward, eh? Seems to me that Jesus is telling the disciples that if they forgive anyone their sins, they are forgiven; if they do not forgive them, they are not forgiven. How do I know that? Well... it's right out of the Bible... ;)

I'd say it's as clear as anything that there's very little room to misinterpret this passage. But since Protestants can't really interpret around the passage, they generally say that the power to forgive sins died with the apostles.

Unfortunately, the apostles thought otherwise. As in the "authority" thread, I'd draw your attention to Acts 1, when the apostles appointed a successor for Judas to "fulfill the ministry he left behind". That ministry, of course, included the all-important ministry of the forgiveness of sins.

And let's once again use common sense. Why would Jesus just give the ability for someone to forgive sins a human lifespan? Why wouldn't he make it last? It's ludicrous to suggest he wouldn't.

But GASP! That removes God from the equation!!!

No it doesn't, incidentally. Remember, for forgiveness to occur one must be truly sorry for having wronged GOD. What's more, check out the rite of absolution: "sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins"- we believe that it's the Holy Spirit who is present in that confessional. not only that, but "through the ministry of the Church." This has dual significance. Firstly, as Paul points out, the Church is the Body of Christ. It is through Christ's ministry that we were forgiven. Not only that, but Christ himself INSTITUTED that very ministry in the Gospel of John.

Now, for a look at the Protestant side of the argument. While there are several pieces of scripture which support the Sacrament of Reconciliation (which I cited), there is absolutely no scripture which indicates that it is invalid. At least, none of my various Protestant friends with whom I've had this discussion have ever managed to find any.

Anywho, thanks for reading that, God bless ;)


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vuDore wrote:This is also why Protestants do not pray to other saints to pray for them, as we believe Jesus is the only one that can pray for us. He is the only one we are able to pray to (because He is human like us) and still be worthy to pray to God (because He is perfect).


That's odd- I've been asked by several of my Protestant friends to pray for them. Most of the Protestants in the JF forum have made a post in the prayer requests thread at some time or another.

Not to mention, in the Bible, James encourages us to pray to one another.
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Postby b.k. barunt on Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:19 am

If i was a member of a church that sheltered child molesters, and moved them from parish to parish to keep them one step ahead of the law, I would want an explanation from those in charge. Wouldn't you? I live in Louisiana, and have seen Catholicism at its best - why would anyone want to be a part of such a corrupt organization? Read your history books - we are talking about a grotesque caricature of religion here. I could care less about the pretty rituals and cathedrals, tell us about the inquisitions, the crusades, the persecution of Jews long before Hitler got to them, etc. We are talking major evil here. Someone once said "by their fruits ye shall know them". Can you guess who that was?
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Re: Question for the Religious Types

Postby cleveridea on Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:26 am

The Kurgan wrote:Does God need faith to survive? <Not a trick question, just wondering>


No. Just believe it.
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Postby Huckleberryhound on Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:27 am

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:Dude, i am not even going to start to pick the holes in what you have just written...life is too short. It is obvious that you have a strong faith in the teachings of cathol, i have no wish to question your beliefs.


but by all means- question them! It's only through discussions like these that I've become as confident in my faith as I am.

Huckleberryhound wrote:I made no "complaints" about your church, just observations, so i can only assume that you are on a deeply defensive mode right now as this is the second time you have attributed feelings to me that i don't have.


Sorry if it came off like that. I'm not on the defensive at all, I could have copied and pasted those responses off of various discussions I've had or articles I've read. "Complaints" was probably the wrong word to use. :)


Why would i want to question your faith ? It is none of my concearn what you believe, as long as it does not infringe on my beliefs.

If i gave you a rosetta stone that proved your faith to be wrong, would it really make you any happier ?


Well if you're concerned over my happiness, then go ahead and question my beliefs. As a rule, the more my beliefs are questioned, the more I believe in them, because I'm forced to research answers to more questions which usually leaves me more convinced that I'm right ;)

In the event that something proved my wrong, I suppose I wouldn't be particularly happy at first, but life goes on. I used to not believe in evolution, discovered myself to be proven wrong, refined my beliefs, moved on, and I'm all the happier for it now...




I hate to be blunt, but i am too secure in my own beliefs to give a rats arse about yours :lol:


Then you just wasted a lot of time, lol ;)



no, i just saved a lot ;)
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Postby vuDore on Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:20 am

OnlyAmbrose wrote:Good to see a new face in the conversation :)

vuDore wrote:Protestants do believe in the confession of sin - it's a part of repentance. To be able to repent of one's wrong acts, we must admit what we've done and confess them to Jesus, who is our mediator in prayer to God.


I wrote quite the post on this particular topic in the JF forum. Here it is copied and pasted:

OnlyAmbrose wrote:Alright, as a result of Jehan's request for an explanation on confession (known more formally as the Sacrament of Reconciliation), I'm here to deliver.
<snip>
Never did I say that there was anything wrong with the Catholic view, did I? If I did, then I apologize, because I didn't mean to imply that. I was just voicing that Protestants also practice confession, and we do this often in the presence of our ministers. I, and my home church (and hopefully all other Protestants), very much agree that one should be right with their neighbor as they confess to Jesus, trying all means necessary to reconcile through the repentance process.

I would say the only part there's any disagreement might be in the matter of absolution. My belief is that Jesus' sacrifice forgave me of all sins I'd ever commit, but that unconfessed and unrepented sin would hinder my walk with God, which is what makes the repenting process so important.
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vuDore wrote:This is also why Protestants do not pray to other saints to pray for them, as we believe Jesus is the only one that can pray for us. He is the only one we are able to pray to (because He is human like us) and still be worthy to pray to God (because He is perfect).


That's odd- I've been asked by several of my Protestant friends to pray for them. Most of the Protestants in the JF forum have made a post in the prayer requests thread at some time or another.

Not to mention, in the Bible, James encourages us to pray to one another.
I misspoke concerning prayer, or rather didn't speak fully. There are two steps (concerning the outgoing prayer): prayer from earth to Christ - this is where we ask others to pray for us - and then Christ petitions to God. God speaks to us through the Holy Spirit to complete the cycle of prayer.
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Re: Question for the Religious Types

Postby Iliad on Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:57 am

The Kurgan wrote:Does God need faith to survive? <Not a trick question, just wondering>

Only in Discworld. 8)

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Postby AlgyTaylor on Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:54 am

Blastshot wrote:
dustn64 wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:So, you're trying to suggest that god Created man, makes him suffer, and judges him his reaction to this devine torment . . .because he was lonely :roll:

God is indeed a bastard.


No, he created us to live in the garden of eden.

Where we'd be happy, then our dumb*ss ancestors f*cked it up...

But the bible says that God knows everything that is, has been and is going to be ... so he must've known that Adam was going to take the apple.

So again, it comes back to God being a complete arsehole.
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Postby Skittles! on Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:24 am

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Skittles wrote:Why 50?


Not sure on the statistics, but I believe that roughly 50% of the world is orthodox and the other 50 is Protestant.

edit for blastshot- yes, methodist is a form of protestantism

Wait, wait.. You mean the whole world of Christianity, not the whole world, right?
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Postby comic boy on Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:47 am

I am not a believer,any keen student of history must surely be appalled by what has been done in the name of religion.However I am deeply impressed by the posts by OnlyAmbroise who has written elegantly and eloquently about his faith.Such personal devotion I feel should be admired and is a stark contrast to the ignorant 'blind faith' that has driven so many to commit horrific deeds in the past.
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Postby Bertros Bertros on Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:23 am

I wasn't going to get involved here but this just got my dander up too much for me to ignore it...

OnlyAmbrose wrote:If you were never sufficiently exposed to the Gospel, then God will have mercy on your soul. Examples of this include babies who die during abortions or shortly after birth, or people who inhabit backward lands where Christianity isn't known.


You argue so eloquently, are clearly an intelligent and educated kid and then let yourself down so badly by displaying such arrogance, a real shame. Perhaps you spend so much effort to question and ratify your beliefs that you haven't yet questioned your inherited prejudice?
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Postby Blastshot on Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:48 am

AlgyTaylor wrote:
Blastshot wrote:
dustn64 wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:So, you're trying to suggest that god Created man, makes him suffer, and judges him his reaction to this devine torment . . .because he was lonely :roll:

God is indeed a bastard.


No, he created us to live in the garden of eden.

Where we'd be happy, then our dumb*ss ancestors f*cked it up...

But the bible says that God knows everything that is, has been and is going to be ... so he must've known that Adam was going to take the apple.

So again, it comes back to God being a complete arsehole.

OK, its not that God couldnt, he just might have chose not to. To let us be FREE to DO AS WE CHOSE. Instead of God changing everything all the time. God gave us freedom, and we chose not to take. :(
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:55 am

I have to leave in a few, but before I go I'll respond to this

Bertros Bertros wrote:I wasn't going to get involved here but this just got my dander up too much for me to ignore it...

OnlyAmbrose wrote:If you were never sufficiently exposed to the Gospel, then God will have mercy on your soul. Examples of this include babies who die during abortions or shortly after birth, or people who inhabit backward lands where Christianity isn't known.


You argue so eloquently, are clearly an intelligent and educated kid and then let yourself down so badly by displaying such arrogance, a real shame. Perhaps you spend so much effort to question and ratify your beliefs that you haven't yet questioned your inherited prejudice?


lol, I just noticed that - it definitely didn't come out the way I meant it.

I didn't mean that only backwards lands have never heard of Christianity (though that's probably true, simply because anyone who's never heard of Christianity probably has no access to telecommunications), I meant that in backwards lands Christianity generally isn't known. Subtle distinction, but it sounds far less arrogant.

Anyways, point is that if you come from a place where there is no knowledge of Christianity (tribal african rainforests, for instance), you can't be blamed for no knowing about Jesus.

Sorry if my meaning was unclear.
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