should cloning be legal

[vtmarik]

I support cloning humans, since we can eventually learn what genes do what and simply clone people with a enough of a chunk of brainstem to keep their autonomic functions running without intellect.

[Norse]

I support cloning humans, since we can eventually learn what genes do what and simply clone people with a enough of a chunk of brainstem to keep their autonomic functions running without intellect.

Don't need cloning to do that


Just add Television.

[btownmeggy]

(Throughout this post, when I say cloning, I don't mean therapeutic cloning, but cloning of entire new individuals.)

Well, like pretty much everyone else, the thought of cloning humans gives me the heebie-jeebies! BUT!, I can't really thinking of any rational reason that it'd be a problem. So what if lots of people had identical twins who were just of a different age? Sure, identical twins give me the heebie-jeebies, but I don't think we should make them illegal! Most people don't like the idea of human cloning and so most people wouldn't engage in it. Genetic diversity would probably continue to be the name of the game. However, TODAY I don't think human cloning should be encouraged because there is still considerable evidence that cloned mammals have a higher likelihood of genetic abnormalities. We need to perfect the science before we start cloning ourselves willynilly.

The genetic therapy that Flashleg brought up is a whole other issue, and actually I think that genetic therapy would generally improve the world. Of course, it would MOST improve the world in a society without class and economic exclusions. However, decreasing the number of people born with debilitating diseases helps... everyone. Increasing the number of really smart people born helps... everyone. Healthy, smart people tend to do good things for humanity.

[Norse]

This is how specifically I can foresee the use of this technology spreading.
The research will be perpetrated (as with the pharmaceutical and biotechnology industry in general) by western companies seeking to developed profitable treatments. Thus the market for these products will be A: affluent private clients and B: rich country’s medical services. Any research will be heavily biased towards seeking solutions to conditions (and perceived problems) that are prevalent in these societies (for example heart disease, diabetes, cosmetics etc). These conditions are not necessarily ones that are the most prevalent thoughout the world or pose the greatest risk to humans - merely the ones with the most profitable cures (similar to the problems with the lack of research into medicines for diseases affecting people in mainly developing countries).
This will immediately create a further divide between the developed and the developing world (those countries that can afford the technology and those who can't). This cannot be good in a climate where there is already conflict of resources – which can only get worse as the effect of climate change continues to be more pronounced.

The next problem is within the Western countries themselves. I would again forecast a problem between the rich and the poor in the individual country.
Take the USA as the first example: (correct me if I'm wrong) at present citizens have to pay for their medical treatment privately, with most people having varying degrees of medial insurance - often provided to them by their job. The super rich can afford any treatment, no matter how expensive for any trivial condition (I'm thinking cosmetic surgery etc). They will surely be first in line for any developing technology that will allow possible life extension and improvement to quality of life.
The bourgeois middle classes will probably have white collar jobs with good medical benefit plans that will (I predict) have access to these kinds of treatments specifically written into them. This may even become a deal breaker in contract negotiations for job seekers.
The working classes will have to put up with whatever employment they can get as always. It’s highly unlikely that a job that receives only minimum wage will have access to highly expensive cloning technology on its medical insurance. Thus they will in effect have large differences in standard of living and vastly reduced life expectances (worse than now).
In the UK we have the NHS (all medical treatment is free at the point of delivery to all citizens). This is highly stretched at the moment, with massive rows about access to new cancer treatments etc. I severely doubt if this system could afford to fund this kind of technology for all its citizens without a radical change in how we manage our economy. Therefore once again, only the people with large disposable incomes (the upper and middle classes) will be able to afford these added benefits.
The problem is further compounded by the genetic modification technology and genetic selection tools that can allow the creation of "designer babies". It may be soon technically possible to select which traits (genes) are present in your offspring - it is already possible to sex select and perform limited gene selection (for health purposes) using fertility treatments. While some speculated uses of this technology are quite shallow (selecting hair/eye colour and selecting for "beauty") others are potentially much more sinister (selecting for intelligence and health). If the use of this technology becomes widespread in only one strata of society there will be huge problems of resentment towards these uber-humans. The "master race" babies will have huge advantages against non-modified babies and it will make it impossible for people to compete for jobs - relationships etc. People that are born without these boosted characteristics will become defacto second class citizens, and in keeping with every other advance in history I doubt this will be made freely available to all people regardless of their race colour or creed.

Well, this is the chunk that I will take issue with here.

But I will come back to this as Im just heading out, watch this space!!

[flashleg8]

The genetic therapy that Flashleg brought up is a whole other issue,

Yes, I don't mean to muddy the waters too much, but the ethical questions from these technologies are quite similar.

and actually I think that genetic therapy would generally improve the world. Of course, it would MOST improve the world in a society without class and economic exclusions. However, decreasing the number of people born with debilitating diseases helps... everyone. Increasing the number of really smart people born helps... everyone. Healthy, smart people tend to do good things for humanity.

Interesting argument. I can see the logic in this, though I don't like the idea of a two tier society where people from birth are inherently more privileged than others. Smacks of eugenics to me.

[Norse]

One of the aspects that would keep me back from replying to this thread, is that it will develop into a quasi-political debate about who is running the world, and slight disagreements as to class divisions and what they mean.

It will in fact lose the actual meaning of this thread.


As Meggy says, the act of cloning would give me the heebie-jeebies, but we are not even nearly ready for that development just yet. I certainly do not like the idea of cloning humans in a direct sense, as opposed to stem cells and the possibility of organ cloning in the future.

I think, flashleg, at the risk of sounding rude, that maybe you have too much free time on your hand.(OK here is a confession now) Gulp, I used to have socialist beliefs when I was a penniless, jobless student. I used to see the whole world and its ways as a massive class-war conspiracy against decent honest chaps with the whole world turned against me as well.


Then I got a job.

I know you say you have 2 science degrees, but maybe if you decided to get a proper grafting job, because you call the middle classes (in your statement bourgeoius) yet you are the guy who sits on your ass studying instead of getting a real job, you are probably middle classed yourself, and despise your own up bringing.


Do not cast your own personal experiences upon the rest of us...I havent had the luxury of studying 2 degrees. And the fact that in the past I was having to be dragged into the real world to support my family, who have now since risen to a decent level because of my hard work and commitment, makes me the bourgoiuse one???

You are just a typical, no gooder sociualist lay about, with your f*ck head conspiracys, because you have nothing better to do with your time.

End of.

[Stopper]

How much had you had to drink, between "heading out", and writing that post, Norse? Or do you not need to drink to be a complete idiot?

[Norse]

Stopper, instead of asking facetious questions, why not be a real man (I gave you the benefit of the doubt in previous arguements, because I thought you were a lady up until a few days ago) and ask a real question....

come on, obviously you guys have got a chip on your shoulder....let the world know about it, and stop being so wet, it gets boring.

[Stopper]

Stopper, instead of asking facetious questions, why not be a real man (I gave you the benefit of the doubt in previous arguements, because I thought you were a lady up until a few days ago) and ask a real question....

come on, obviously you guys have got a chip on your shoulder....let the world know about it, and stop being so wet, it gets boring.

Be a real man? No, how much have you had to drink? Seriously.

[Norse]

seriously? Ive had 3 pints and a few coffeee's.

Now, have you actually got anything to say on the matter? anything particularly witty? anything intelligent?

Or not?

[Norse]

This is just too easy, anyone with a decent opinion on this matter, please post.

Ive got sloppy, sorry stopper, trying his hardest with his limp-wrists, to put up a barrier arguement.

[btownmeggy]

I think, flashleg, at the risk of sounding rude, that maybe you have too much free time on your hand.(OK here is a confession now) Gulp, I used to have socialist beliefs when I was a penniless, jobless student. I used to see the whole world and its ways as a massive class-war conspiracy against decent honest chaps with the whole world turned against me as well.

Then I got a job.

I know you say you have 2 science degrees, but maybe if you decided to get a proper grafting job, because you call the middle classes (in your statement bourgeoius) yet you are the guy who sits on your ass studying instead of getting a real job, you are probably middle classed yourself, and despise your own up bringing.

Do not cast your own personal experiences upon the rest of us...I havent had the luxury of studying 2 degrees. And the fact that in the past I was having to be dragged into the real world to support my family, who have now since risen to a decent level because of my hard work and commitment, makes me the bourgoiuse one???

You are just a typical, no gooder sociualist lay about, with your f*ck head conspiracys, because you have nothing better to do with your time.

Norse, why did you take so much offense from flashleg's comments?

To my understanding flash has a job (like pretty much everyone who ever speaks from the left in these forums).

Socialism is not a conspiracy against the middle class. Flash was not insulting the middle class in his statement. He used the term bourgeois, but did it in a matter-of-fact way: He wasn't being judgemental, only using a term which is politicized by many but is not intrinsically insulting. He was not insulting YOU PERSONALLY at all, as you just did to him.

Chill, dude.

[Stopper]

So, we've established you're actually sober?

Stopper, instead of asking facetious questions, why not be a real man (I gave you the benefit of the doubt in previous arguements, because I thought you were a lady up until a few days ago) and ask a real question....

Well, in response to this, I have a few things off the top of my head - I didn't pursue any of these things before, because of your weak responses. I don't like to hound people if they don't want to argue. But given your aggression - and apparent aversion to conspiracy theories (?) - maybe you can answer them.

- Exactly why, then, are the BNP not a fascist, or neo-fascist, party? Also, exactly why are they more "genuine" than the mainstream parties?

- Have you found the legal precedents yet for the following? No picking the first hit on Google, either, please!

In Britain, if someone where to Break into my house whilst I slept, and fall through the window onto my kitchen knives, I would be sued.

In Britain, if someone where to break into my house, and I retaliated in a way that caused harm to the criminal, then I would be put in prison.

- I've genuinely forgotten the name of the group of the elite that you are scared may be running the world. I've got a feeling it's somehow connected to Davos. But it definitely wasn't a conspiracy theory. And this elite you're so scared of was definitely somehow more plausible than the scenario flashleg was talking about.

Alternatively, if that is all too difficult for you, I could go over the post that raised my ire, and tell you why I considered it a waste of 2 minutes of my life (Not again ), but that'd need to wait 'til tomorrow.

[Stopper]

This is just too easy, anyone with a decent opinion on this matter, please post.

Ive got sloppy, sorry stopper, trying his hardest with his limp-wrists, to put up a barrier arguement.

I responded, Nosewipe, sorry Norse. Just give me a minute, when I've other things to do.

[Norse]

I was expecting this side show circus, I really could see this coming....

For anyone reading this not knowing what is going on, this is called "arguing with a numpty who cannot back up themeselves, thus having to refer back to other arguements"

- Exactly why, then, are the BNP not a fascist, or neo-fascist, party? Also, exactly why are they more "genuine" than the mainstream parties?.

I never said that they were not fascist, I merely stated that the liberal types, like yourself, label them with the word fascist, whereas in my opinion they are more of a nationalist party, albeit with racist implications......


I believe the point I was trying to make at the time, is that limp wristed bleeding heart piss soaked liberals like you, jump onto this particular band wagon that despises anyone who is proud to be of a pedigree.

You are the fascist one, not me.

- Have you found the legal precedents yet for the following? No picking the first hit on Google, either, please!

In Britain, if someone where to Break into my house whilst I slept, and fall through the window onto my kitchen knives, I would be sued.

In Britain, if someone where to break into my house, and I retaliated in a way that caused harm to the criminal, then I would be put in prison.

.

No, but I have not looked since our last altercation about this. Im 90% certain that something like this happened (other than the tony martin case) in Britain.

- I've genuinely forgotten the name of the group of the elite that you are scared may be running the world. I've got a feeling it's somehow connected to Davos. But it definitely wasn't a conspiracy theory. And this elite you're so scared of was definitely somehow more plausible than the scenario flashleg was talking about.

Alternatively, if that is all too difficult for you, I could go over the post that raised my ire, and tell you why I considered it a waste of 2 minutes of my life (Not again ), but that'd need to wait 'til tomorrow.

Stopper, You do not know, or understand, the complexities of individuals like myself.

I have my own opinions,but unlike yourself, do not carry a chip on my shoulder.

I do not weigh myself, or others down with tyhe weight of my opinions, I just take pride in shooting the likes of yourself down.

The truth is, you are the enemy. I will do what I can in my life to make sure your types bastardize yourselves even further, and are made to look even stupider than you currently do.

This is my class war.

The fact of the matter is, that whilst I can get on in a world such as this, and Know what the be all and end all is, you still have a very minute understanding of anything deeper than what is rammed down your neck by the media/government.

[Norse]

Ya know what, I shouldnt have even replied to your pathetic post stopper.

If you have any problems/queries about what has been said in the past, make a thread about it. (doubt you will, unless you have 20 of the bleating brigade behind you)

You have nothing to contribute here.

[Norse]

I think, flashleg, at the risk of sounding rude, that maybe you have too much free time on your hand.(OK here is a confession now) Gulp, I used to have socialist beliefs when I was a penniless, jobless student. I used to see the whole world and its ways as a massive class-war conspiracy against decent honest chaps with the whole world turned against me as well.

Then I got a job.

I know you say you have 2 science degrees, but maybe if you decided to get a proper grafting job, because you call the middle classes (in your statement bourgeoius) yet you are the guy who sits on your ass studying instead of getting a real job, you are probably middle classed yourself, and despise your own up bringing.

Do not cast your own personal experiences upon the rest of us...I havent had the luxury of studying 2 degrees. And the fact that in the past I was having to be dragged into the real world to support my family, who have now since risen to a decent level because of my hard work and commitment, makes me the bourgoiuse one???

You are just a typical, no gooder sociualist lay about, with your f*ck head conspiracys, because you have nothing better to do with your time.

Norse, why did you take so much offense from flashleg's comments?

To my understanding flash has a job (like pretty much everyone who ever speaks from the left in these forums).

Socialism is not a conspiracy against the middle class. Flash was not insulting the middle class in his statement. He used the term bourgeois, but did it in a matter-of-fact way: He wasn't being judgemental, only using a term which is politicized by many but is not intrinsically insulting. He was not insulting YOU PERSONALLY at all, as you just did to him.

Chill, dude.

What he obviously fails to realise is it is the middle classes who pay the tax dollars to subsidise his ass all the way through his schooling career.

These 'horrible, wicked,fortunate yet industrious people' are the ones who have made it a pracitcality that fresh water runs into his house, and that electricity, cars, tower blocks exist, that he probably has a daily use of.

If I was in charge, people so degenerative and self hating as himself would be sent into arid climates to create their own socialist utopia.

I'd give them 5 years before they all die out.

[flashleg8]

I think, flashleg, at the risk of sounding rude, that maybe you have too much free time on your hand.(OK here is a confession now) Gulp, I used to have socialist beliefs when I was a penniless, jobless student. I used to see the whole world and its ways as a massive class-war conspiracy against decent honest chaps with the whole world turned against me as well.


Then I got a job.

I know you say you have 2 science degrees, but maybe if you decided to get a proper grafting job, because you call the middle classes (in your statement bourgeois) yet you are the guy who sits on your ass studying instead of getting a real job, you are probably middle classed yourself, and despise your own up bringing.


Do not cast your own personal experiences upon the rest of us...I havent had the luxury of studying 2 degrees. And the fact that in the past I was having to be dragged into the real world to support my family, who have now since risen to a decent level because of my hard work and commitment, makes me the bourgoiuse one???

You are just a typical, no gooder sociualist lay about, with your f*ck head conspiracys, because you have nothing better to do with your time.

End of.

I really don't know why I'm replying but...

I have a job. In fact I've worked constantly since I was a teenager all through school and Uni and after I graduated. I worked my way through both my degrees and the only government assistance I had was my course fees were paid for me (I firmly believe that all education should be free and government should foot the bill for the good of society in general so I'm not ashamed to say this). I admit not all people have been as lucky as myself to have the opportunity to attend University, but you must realise I had to make a lot of sacrifices (in both my work and my family life) to do this.
Although I own my own home, have a tertiary education level and have a non manual labour job, I am not from a middle class background (though in Scotland our society doesn't appear to be as class ridden as yours in England does) my father and mothers family were all farm workers. I was the first person from my family to go to University (though my brothers have all achieved degrees of some sort now) and I was educated in a state run school.
It does annoy me that people make sweeping leaps when talking about other people here that they know nothing about.
As meggy rightly said, I was using the term "bourgeois" to describe the middle classes in a political sense - it was not meant to be derogatory, and I didn't apply the term to yourself at any point.

One of the aspects that would keep me back from replying to this thread, is that it will develop into a quasi-political debate about who is running the world, and slight disagreements as to class divisions and what they mean.

It will in fact lose the actual meaning of this thread.

Yes, the meaning of the thread has disappeared with the personal attacks and insults - I wonder why that happened....