should cloning be legal

[tjm123]

you woudnt clone a human for organs.

[Norse]

no stem cells do not reatin the gentic material of the person who had them. this is growing an entierly new organ

wrong, of course they do, the stem cells are just like 'baby cells' that never developed properly, but are kept safe by the mechanics of the body.

[Hitman079]

so, you mean like cloning one's bone marrow to heal someone else's leukemia?

[Norse]

you woudnt clone a human for organs.

but in the future, Im sure that they can find a way of producing a whole organ without the human.

[tjm123]

...... intersting thx. this is why i made this thread dam. bye all

[Norse]

so, you mean like cloning one's bone marrow to heal someone else's leukemia?

spot on!

[kwanton]

I think what he means is stem cell manipulation is not true cloning in the most general sense. The cloning he was refering to is full-body make-another-human cloning. Sure, growing an organ from stem cells is technically cloning but it's not the same type of cloning he was refering to.

Back on topic, if ya can do it then do it.

[unriggable]

I say cloning is for the most part wrong. I mean, its an unnatural way of reproduction.

[Anarkistsdream]

I say cloning is for the most part wrong. I mean, its an unnatural way of reproduction.

I must admit... I like the natural way better...

Hubba hubba

[unriggable]

I say cloning is for the most part wrong. I mean, its an unnatural way of reproduction.

I must admit... I like the natural way better...

Hubba hubba

I agree. It won't be as fun going into a machine and having some cells extracted. Old-School is always the best.

[Norse]

I think what he means is stem cell manipulation is not true cloning in the most general sense. The cloning he was refering to is full-body make-another-human cloning. Sure, growing an organ from stem cells is technically cloning but it's not the same type of cloning he was refering to.

Back on topic, if ya can do it then do it.

Well, maybe before making this kind of a thread again, then he should actually clarify what he means. It is cloning though, and it does involve a human, therefore = human cloning.

[Norse]

I say cloning is for the most part wrong. I mean, its an unnatural way of reproduction.

I must admit... I like the natural way better...

Hubba hubba

In fact, I want to masturbate with a cloned hand.

thoughts please?

[kwanton]

Well, maybe before making this kind of a thread again, then he should actually clarify what he means. It is cloning though, and it does involve a human, therefore = human cloning.

Actually this was not limited to only human cloning. This included animals too. It's actually on that poll right at the top if you bothered to look. And I know that stem cell research is technically cloning but it's not the type of cloning the thread creator was referring to.

[gimil]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/genes/article ... 84,00.html

heres an artical that ill help everyone better understand what your trying to discuss.

[Norse]

Well, maybe before making this kind of a thread again, then he should actually clarify what he means. It is cloning though, and it does involve a human, therefore = human cloning.

Actually this was not limited to only human cloning. This included animals too. It's actually on that poll right at the top if you bothered to look. And I know that stem cell research is technically cloning but it's not the type of cloning the thread creator was referring to.

I know this too, which is why I have repeatedly stated it. And to repeat myself again, I will say that next time anybody wishes to start a poll like this ever again, that:

A. They know what they are talking about
B. Offer options that cover all eventualities
C. Maybe have something other to offer than illiterate, ignorant shit-for-brained comments.

Edit: obviously reffering to poll author

[flashleg8]

I've always thought if we could find an effective cheap way to clone cow muscle, it could do wonders to the food shortage problem.

Cheaper than the way we propduce cow meat now

The problem is not the lack of supply - mearly the method of distribution.

[insert standard anti-capitalist, anti-consumerism rant here]

As for cloning. I would support all forms of cloning and genetic manipulation - as long as the technology was made freely available to all counties and people.

I suspect the rich (especially in the West) will be able to use these advances to create "designer babies" and to extend their livespan, while I doubt the poor and the developing world countries will have no access to it. Thus widening the already vast gulf between the haves and the have nots.

[Norse]

[insert generic socialist rant, that goes off on such a tangent, that it actually has f*ck all to do with anything said previously]

[Anarchy Ninja]

Cheaper than the way we propduce cow meat now Exclamation

The problem is not the lack of supply - mearly the method of distribution.

[insert standard anti-capitalist, anti-consumerism rant here]

As for cloning. I would support all forms of cloning and genetic manipulation - as long as the technology was made freely available to all counties and people.

I suspect the rich (especially in the West) will be able to use these advances to create "designer babies" and to extend their livespan, while I doubt the poor and the developing world countries will have no access to it. Thus widening the already vast gulf between the haves and the have nots.

I cleary have problems with equality and have little compasion for anyone less fortunate then me

[Norse]

Look, I'm not going to get into a tangental arguement here, if you have anything to say about this particular matter and would like a response from me, create a different thread.

However, if you wish to get a cheap dig in without any response, then continue to spew out your 6th-form piss-soaked poncey limp-wristed bleating liberal bleeding-heart bullshit on this thread.

[flashleg8]

Look, I'm not going to get into a tangental arguement here, if you have anything to say about this particular matter and would like a response from me, create a different thread.

However, if you wish to get a cheap dig in without any response, then continue to spew out your 6th-form piss-soaked poncey limp-wristed bleating liberal bleeding-heart bullshit on this thread.

I think its a legitimate line of debate in all seriousness. Who will control this technology? Who will have the funds/will to use it? Will it be for the benefit of all the people or a select few?
If cloning technology can be used to massively extend peoples lives, will these people still retire at 65? Will a sub class of non-genetically altered workers have to toil away supporting the lucky few clone supported pensioners till infinity?

[Norse]

hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

Back to 6th form kiddo.

[flashleg8]

Back to 6th form kiddo.

I'm not English but I assume by 6th form you mean school age?
I've actually got two science degrees and I've studied this subject at Uni level (though I'll admit I spent most of the time nursing a hang-over!)

Now whether or not you agree with me that there will be a social divide using this technology you must surely admit that it will have some serious social implications?

[Norse]

Right.

You a making a very large assumption here for a start, that this technology will be used for the creation/modification of human beings. Now this is a very large assumption to make, do you really believe that this is realistic?

You talk of the social divide, and that this will widen the ever increasing gap between rich and poor. Do you honestly think that the cloning issue has a great deal of relevance to 'class division' issues? If so, explain to me in intricate detail your practical theory of how this is likely to happen. I for one think that you are barking up the entirely wrong tree, in fact, if I were in your shoes, cloning would be among the last things that I would be concerned about.

I do not wish to sound harsh here, as you are obviously an intelligent and decent guy, but you have come across as more of a conspiracy theorist here, rather than a man of justice.

[flashleg8]

As the OP (tjm123) and others discussed at the start of the thread there are lots of different technologies related to cloning but I hope it won't me to much of a jump to link stem cell research, genetic modification with organ and full body cloning as these technologies are all interlinked and present compatible treatment/research possibilities.

You a making a very large assumption here for a start, that this technology will be used for the creation/modification of human beings. Now this is a very large assumption to make, do you really believe that this is realistic?

I really don't see why not. We have already reached the stage where higher forms of mammals can be cloned, there really is nothing stopping us from moving on to cloning humans (except the ethical question). Many scientist round the world have specifically put this as their goal - its really only the repressive laws on research in the developed countries which is slowing this down. I truly believe it is only a matter of time before the breakthrough is made, rightly or wrongly.

You talk of the social divide, and that this will widen the ever increasing gap between rich and poor. Do you honestly think that the cloning issue has a great deal of relevance to 'class division' issues? If so, explain to me in intricate detail your practical theory of how this is likely to happen. I for one think that you are barking up the entirely wrong tree, in fact, if I were in your shoes, cloning would be among the last things that I would be concerned about.

You're quite correct to point out that this is not the main issue affecting the class struggle, but I do fear the long term implications of an unrestrained use of this technology in a market based economy.

This is how specifically I can foresee the use of this technology spreading.
The research will be perpetrated (as with the pharmaceutical and biotechnology industry in general) by western companies seeking to developed profitable treatments. Thus the market for these products will be A: affluent private clients and B: rich country’s medical services. Any research will be heavily biased towards seeking solutions to conditions (and perceived problems) that are prevalent in these societies (for example heart disease, diabetes, cosmetics etc). These conditions are not necessarily ones that are the most prevalent thoughout the world or pose the greatest risk to humans - merely the ones with the most profitable cures (similar to the problems with the lack of research into medicines for diseases affecting people in mainly developing countries).
This will immediately create a further divide between the developed and the developing world (those countries that can afford the technology and those who can't). This cannot be good in a climate where there is already conflict of resources – which can only get worse as the effect of climate change continues to be more pronounced.

The next problem is within the Western countries themselves. I would again forecast a problem between the rich and the poor in the individual country.
Take the USA as the first example: (correct me if I'm wrong) at present citizens have to pay for their medical treatment privately, with most people having varying degrees of medial insurance - often provided to them by their job. The super rich can afford any treatment, no matter how expensive for any trivial condition (I'm thinking cosmetic surgery etc). They will surely be first in line for any developing technology that will allow possible life extension and improvement to quality of life.
The bourgeois middle classes will probably have white collar jobs with good medical benefit plans that will (I predict) have access to these kinds of treatments specifically written into them. This may even become a deal breaker in contract negotiations for job seekers.
The working classes will have to put up with whatever employment they can get as always. It’s highly unlikely that a job that receives only minimum wage will have access to highly expensive cloning technology on its medical insurance. Thus they will in effect have large differences in standard of living and vastly reduced life expectances (worse than now).
In the UK we have the NHS (all medical treatment is free at the point of delivery to all citizens). This is highly stretched at the moment, with massive rows about access to new cancer treatments etc. I severely doubt if this system could afford to fund this kind of technology for all its citizens without a radical change in how we manage our economy. Therefore once again, only the people with large disposable incomes (the upper and middle classes) will be able to afford these added benefits.
The problem is further compounded by the genetic modification technology and genetic selection tools that can allow the creation of "designer babies". It may be soon technically possible to select which traits (genes) are present in your offspring - it is already possible to sex select and perform limited gene selection (for health purposes) using fertility treatments. While some speculated uses of this technology are quite shallow (selecting hair/eye colour and selecting for "beauty") others are potentially much more sinister (selecting for intelligence and health). If the use of this technology becomes widespread in only one strata of society there will be huge problems of resentment towards these uber-humans. The "master race" babies will have huge advantages against non-modified babies and it will make it impossible for people to compete for jobs - relationships etc. People that are born without these boosted characteristics will become defacto second class citizens, and in keeping with every other advance in history I doubt this will be made freely available to all people regardless of their race colour or creed.

I do not wish to sound harsh here, as you are obviously an intelligent and decent guy, but you have come across as more of a conspiracy theorist here, rather than a man of justice.

Fair enough this might all sound quite science fiction - but these technologies are at most 10 - 20 years off, if we don't think about the repercussions now it will be too late later on. There's no putting the genie back in the bottle once it’s out. We cannot afford to blindly let the market decide the future of the human race.

[strike wolf]

We're overpopulated as it is so I don't think human cloning should be allowed. However, cloning organs for transplants and cloning species that have gone on the endangered species list could be helpful.