luns101 wrote:Neutrino,
I will try one last time to explain to you why I think America is the best country to live in and why I love it so much.
1. Americans enjoy a national ethic and legal framework that promotes justice, freedom and equality. It happens slowly, but over time we face down our demons (slavery, civil rights violations, aggression against native Indians). America was founded on the rejection of foreign control, the opposition to tyranny, the celebration of freedom, and the universal recognition of human rights. We are angered by our own country's treatment of prisoners (Abu-Ghraib) and seek to put pressure on our elected officials to ensure humane treatment. Foreign soldiers during WWII preferred to be captured by Americans because of the humane ways they were treated. But you deny this legal history with your citation of the Roy Pearson case despite that fact that he received nothing. Our system works!
What are you saying here? I know all this (even though you are portraying the US in a light so positive that it destroyed any illusions of objectivity). I have never said that it is a horrible place, just that it (and no other country) is worthy of the title of 'best country'. If it were the best then it would strive (fully, not the PR type effort we are getting now; all show and no substance) to eliminate poverty and exploitation. It would interfere with other countries only in the gravest need: Iraq really didn't need urgent military interference, but there are several other countries that do.
http://www.oxfamamerica.org/newsandpubl ... t2579.htmlA submission to the
US Security Council asking them to stop the conflict in Congo. It says 2 million killed. Did Saddam's crimes ever get anywhere near this? No.
It would have a legal system that wasn’t motivated entirely by profit.
luns101 wrote:2. America, during the Cold War, stared down the Soviet Union and dared it that its democratic/capitalism could outperform and outlast the Soviets' unique brand of a socialistic dictatorship.
Someone, somewhere, at some point, said that the Soviet Union's brand of Communism (just like China's) was actually just Capitalism on steroids. Instead of a pseudo-wealthy middle class and a small, elite upper class like we have now, the Soviet Union's Communism did what Capitalism is going to do: remove the middle class and concentrate the wealth of the upper class in fewer hands.
luns101 wrote: America was right, and now the world begrudgingly concedes it. The private sector outperforms the public sector and it and it was on full display for the entire world to witness over the span of about 44 years. The IMF routinely suggests to developing countries that they privatise
and deregulate to assist economic growth based on that period of history, which I am proud of. Most politicians around the world, except for a few populist leftists in Latin America and elsewhere, quietly embrace the free market as a generally beneficial force. They would never give America the full credit for providing leadership in this area, but still follow it nonetheless.
Where have I ever said that a free market was a bad thing? It allows a degree of personal freedom unavailable in government-controlled markets.
luns101 wrote:You deny this by stating that America exploits 3rd world countries in order to gain economic advantage and thus keep them in debt. I provided you with specific of examples of why that is wrong.
You keep getting me wrong in this section. In my example, I wasn't arguing against the US. Rather, I was arguing against Capitalism, the system that makes that entire thing possible. Hell, the hypothetical 'rich man' could have come from any country. He could even have been born in the very country that he is exploiting. Why are you automatically assuming that the 'rich man' was born in the USA...
luns101 wrote:3. America has long recognized no inherent disadvantage to inequality, as long as everyone has the chance to move up the ladder.
Sure everyone has a chance to move up the ladder. It may take specialized equipment several days to calculate it, but it still exists.
How can you say that someone who was born into a poor family with minimal education has the same chance of 'climbing the ladder' as someone born into a reasonably wealthy family and who went to an incredibly expensive private school?
The rich person's parents will have contacts which the poor person's lack, enabling them to speed their child up the ladder to success.
This. Is. Not. Equality.
luns101 wrote: The globally competitive market has made the lazy rich a scarcer species. In 1916 America, only about 20% of the richest 1% made their wealth directly through paid work. Today, over 60% do.
But how is the pay distribution fair? The work CEO's do presumably takes a bit of skill (or just anyone could do it
) but the amount of pay that they are given really doesn’t reflect this. Is the job they do
really so difficult that they deserve to be paid several dozen times the amount that the Prime Minister of Australia does? Hell, the CEO of Telstra (It's Australian. You've probably never heard of it) got a $14 mill bonus for making his company loose money!
They may be working for their money, but they are certainly not working hard enough.
luns101 wrote: It has allowed people like myself who were born into a poor family to improve ourselves. I'm proud of that and make no apologizes for it. America's economy has always been steeped in this recognition. Our economic machine still remains the best wealth-creating machine on the face of the planet and has freed thousands from poverty. No country can eliminate poverty completely, but we've reduced it. I'm proud of that fact.
No. Not a wealth creation machine. You do not sit down and shuffle some papers and a large pile of cash magically appears in front of you.
It is a wealth manufacturing machine. Manufacturing means there is a raw material which is then turned into wealth. That raw material is natural resources (or, if you wanted to be really cynical about it, you would say human lives and souls) These resources have to come from somewhere and America isn't big enough to supply itself with resources.
luns101 wrote:American economic growth, the envy of the world, has helped to preserve the American Dream. It is our unique ethic that says that anyone can achieve anything they want to given hard work, that one can raise his or her family in a more prosperous situation than his or her parents had, and that prosperity can be had by anyone who is willing to work for it. That work ethic is reflected in both the business workplace and athletic field. There are tons of stories of average people working hard and achieving wonderful things thanks to our system. God Bless America for that...I love it. You deny this by painting a picture of America as a bunch of rich fat cats living off the resources of the rest of the world.
Unique? Hhhhheeeeellllllooooooo...! Australia, New Zealand, Britain, Canada, basically any other developed nation you'd care to name have the exact same damn thing. They may not wave it around as much and may not have given it such a pretentious name, but it still exists.
You seem to think that American economic growth is infinite. Guess what, it isn't. It is already
far in excess of what the Earth can keep up with. Humanity already uses almost 50% of all resources in and on the earth and I’m sure the percentage of that that Capitalist nations use is horrendous. The Earth has a finite amount of resources, while Capitalism has an infinite need for them.
Do you think any sort of Capitalist system would survive if could no longer exploit the earth’s resources with impunity?
Hell no.
luns101 wrote:
4. America is indeed a nation of immigrants and this has been to the unequivocal benefit of the United States. Despite your assertions that we are trying keep out any and all immigrants to our country
But you are. You have a huge border force, dedicated to keeping those who want a better standard of living, but don’t have the several lifetimes necessary to come in through the legal channels out. Of course, if they are skilled, then you welcome them with open arms, but if they don’t bring anything immediately useful then they are left out in the cold to starve.
Thank god your border is so porus. Do you have any idea of the number of deaths that will occur along that border if you try to make it any stricter?
luns101 wrote:
we benefit from their input to our culture.
And yet a mere few weeks ago I was arguing with Americans about the need for a mono-culture. Shows what most Americans actually think about immigrants.
luns101 wrote:
A tight immigration policy *Cough* *Cough* mixed with responsible assimilation has brought considerable economic benefits to this country. Sure, we need to cut down on the illegal immigration that is coming into our country primarily from Mexico. Studies show immigrants start small businesses at a much greater rate than natives, and anecdotal stories of "up from the bootstraps" immigrants achieving great success abound. It happens every year here. I love the USA for this. You tried to link this to humanitarian aid! Then you tried to make some kind of connection of us attacking Iraq. Those are separate issues.
Not really. You were talking about how much humanitarian aid the US gives out and I was trying to point out that most of this comes from private, non-profit organizations. The invasion of Iraq was partly excused as a humanitarian effort and I was pointing out how this effort could be better spent else ware.
luns101 wrote:
Those are 4 specific reasons why I think this is the greatest country to live in. You may not like those answers, but there they are.
Correction: They may not make any sense, but there they are.
Your entire response reads like an advertisement for the US. “Come to the USA. We are perfect. We have no problems whatsoever, except for a few in the distant past, all of which were extremely regrettable and are phrased in such terms as to distance us from them. Even those problems that US residents complain about do not actually exist and are merely hallucinations caused by the extreme perfectness of the area. Come to the US!”
luns101 wrote:
How do you know that? Inequalities exist in any country.
Hmm…?
luns101 wrote:3. America has long recognized no inherent disadvantage to inequality
I am detecting a contradiction in the Force…
I know that through sheer common sense. If you were a high-rolling, extremely skilled lawyer, would you rather work on a fixed rate for the government or start or join a private firm or make millions?
Therefore, only those with extremely strong morals (the few of them that there are) and those with little to no skill are left in the government service.
luns101 wrote:
Our BIA Pro Bono Project works to ensure the high quality of assigned counsels for the poor and immigrants
And what percentages of all private lawyers’ cases are pro bono? You guessed correctly. It is the number that is so small that it will take a large team of scientists and a large amount of specialized equipment weeks to find out…
luns101 wrote:
...another success!
Ahh, another success for the glorious nation of the USA. Will the successes ever end? I don’t think I can bare to live in such great times any more.
luns101 wrote:
That's just silly.
How so?
luns101 wrote:
You really assume the worst about us. You're statement speaks for itself.
It may assume the worst, but it assumes correctly. Do you deny that the US cherry-picks skilled immigrants and leaves the rest out?
luns101 wrote:
No, because I have a premium account here. Just kidding. I invest $$ in a pre-paid legal account should I ever have to need counsel.
Then you are obviously not an accurate example of the majority of the population. Most people can’t afford life insurance, much less a pre-paid legal account.
luns101 wrote:
Really Neutrino, I've given you specifics once again. It sounds like you're throwing out accusations that you've heard from liberal professors or Marxian websites. I'm not trying to sound condescending towards you. I hope you consider the points I've made. We're not this big evil nation of exploitation.
I never said you were. I was saying that you economic theory makes it so it is extremely easy for those already on top of the pile to win and continue winning, far into the distant future.
FYI, I have never been to any Marxist websites
luns101 wrote:
Are you a Marxist, by chance?
No. As I said before, anyone who can label themselves so easily is probably severely lacking in higher neural functions. If I were to give myself a label, the hyphens alone would total a page or more
There was something else I was going to add to the end of this, but I can't remember it. I'll add it if I remember it.
We own all your helmets, we own all your shoes, we own all your generals. Touch us and you loooose...
The Rogue State!
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