Happy 4th of July.

[unriggable]

BTW Healthcare (like plenty of other things) is relative to the state. In massachusetts where I live its a lot better than in other states (I know that my brother had to wait for quite some time when he broke his arm visiting in kentucky).

[Fircoal]

I'm sure lots of people feel patriotic towards their respective countries.

Nope, not really.

How do you know that? Are you arguing from omniscience?

yeah really, just because you dont doesnt mean other people dont. You have to realize there are other people in the world other than you. I feel patriotic towards the USA.

I do, sorry, I wasn't meaning other people. I was saying me myself doesn't.

[Fircoal]

Once again, just like Fircoal, you speak as though you know the motivations and intentions of people you've never met. It's typical of your side to use that tactic.

Show we where, I meant to say that I know what other people think. All I've said is my opinions.

[firth4eva]

I'm sure lots of people feel patriotic towards their respective countries.

Nope, not really.

How do you know that? Are you arguing from omniscience?

yeah really, just because you dont doesnt mean other people dont. You have to realize there are other people in the world other than you. I feel patriotic towards the USA.

you are a bit brainwashed though arent you?

If we are brainwashed then who performed this great act upon our minds? Were we willing participants or were we manipulated by the media? Really, we want to believe that America is a terrible place, but somehow our thoughts were altered and now we just march to the drumbeat of USA, USA!

Once again, just like Fircoal, you speak as though you know the motivations and intentions of people you've never met. It's typical of your side to use that tactic.

your side?
referring to other countries as opposition

[luns101]

Spain is better. BTW Just because somebody points out the faults of America doesn't make them think that China and Cuba are better.

Nope, but there are many people trying to come into this country, both legally and illegally. If the US is as bad as Neutrino describes it then why are all those people coming over here?

I think I know what his answer will be, but it's just a guess. He'll say that the US has raped other countries' natural resources for its own benefit and that those people have no choice but to flee to our country...or something along those lines. But it's just a guess.

[unriggable]

Spain is better. BTW Just because somebody points out the faults of America doesn't make them think that China and Cuba are better.

Nope, but there are many people trying to come into this country, both legally and illegally. If the US is as bad as Neutrino describes it then why are all those people coming over here?

They aren't given all the facts before they enter, my mom comes from belgium and what she tells me that what she heard about the US before entering seemed like a utopia compared to the real thing.

[Norse]

Firth, you are seriously mixed up if you think that mate.

And, if you let yourself become brainwashed, then you are leading your life in a bad way.

[Guiscard]

I'll let you have this one, yanks

Hope you all had a good day.

[The1exile]

Spain is better. BTW Just because somebody points out the faults of America doesn't make them think that China and Cuba are better.

Nope, but there are many people trying to come into this country, both legally and illegally. If the US is as bad as Neutrino describes it then why are all those people coming over here?

They aren't given all the facts before they enter, my mom comes from belgium and what she tells me that what she heard about the US before entering seemed like a utopia compared to the real thing.

the streets are paved with gold!

[Norse]

the streets are paved with gold!

I thought the streets were paved with cheese?

Maybe I shouldnt base my life opinions on novelty

[luns101]

They aren't given all the facts before they enter, my mom comes from belgium and what she tells me that what she heard about the US before entering seemed like a utopia compared to the real thing.

No country is a utopia. I'm wondering who told her that. Did your mother decide to stay here in the US or return to Belgium?

[Neutrino]

You're right, Neutrino...I better move immediately. I've seen the light! I had no idea things were so terrible here. Perhaps I could live in the paradises that are North Korea or Cuba.

Where exactly, pray tell, have I said things in North Korea or Cuba were better than those in America?
What I was trying to point out is that no country is perfect; they all have their share of faults, therefore, no country should be deemed 'the best'.

And you still haven't answered my question to do with what you would do if America performed a massacre on unarmed civilians.

[Neutrino]

They aren't given all the facts before they enter, my mom comes from belgium and what she tells me that what she heard about the US before entering seemed like a utopia compared to the real thing.

No country is a utopia. I'm wondering who told her that. Did your mother decide to stay here in the US or return to Belgium?

Oh come on, luns, you know this isn't a valid argument.
The vast, vast majority of all immigrants do not, in fact, have sufficient funds to travel to wherever they wish if the country they are immigrating to dosen't turn out to be of their liking.

They fell for the propaganda and now they are stuck there.

[luns101]

Your legal and healthcare systems are a joke. The fact that the judge who is sueing that laundromat for 65 million for loosing a pair of pants hasn't been quietly taken outside and shot

I'm hardly able to type after hearing your ridiculous statement of proof! Roy Pearson received nothing in his lawsuit which shows that our legal system does work. Sure, we have a couple of bad verdicts now and then. Why you chose this one to prove your point is beyond hilarious. You want to take him out and shoot him! What a tolerant person you are!! LOL

and 2 hours waiting in hospitals proves this.

The latest concrete numbers show that the average waiting time to see a physician is 46.5 minutes. The average length of stay is over 2 hours. You make it seem like people are dying out in the waiting room all over emergency rooms in the U.S., which is laughable. There are occasional stories of people who have to wait extremely long periods of time to see a doctor, but that is not the norm. Yeah, once in awhile someone dies, but it is not the norm. Some hospitals are even promising that if you are not seen within 15 minutes, the emergency room portion of the bill is waived. And another thing, some people voluntarily wait while more extreme cases are being treated, which weights the average towards that 2 hour figure.

I'm really having fun with this. You're just throwing out regurgitated liberal anti-US talking points. It reminds me of exaggerated Soviet accusations about our crime rates back during the 80's in order to deflect attention away from their inability to feed their own people.

Your constitution is being screwed over left, right and centre. At the current rate, the USA will soon become akin to Communist China. The fact the President gained dictatorial powers proves this.

Yet, his party was voted out of power in the Congress last November. Why didn't he flex some of that dictatorial power in order to prevent that from happening.

...and yet again, the immigration policy that he championed was just defeated. How come those dictatorial powers didn't prevent that legislative setback?!! Sounds like you need to study the American system of checks and balances.

The reason you have access to so much of the worlds resources is your economic theory actively encourages buisnessmen to go off any buy up resources from the natives for the equivalent of shiny pebbles. This was discussed in the Marxist thread.

...and I could hardly keep from laughing then as well. Marx got screwed, he should have had you as his compadre, not Engels.

Rich man comes into a poor, subsistance farming area and buys up all the land which belongs to the local farmers. The farmers think they are getting a great deal, while in reality they are being payed far below what their land is actually worth. Rich man imports heavy agriculture machinery, kicks the former farmers off his land and turns what was their means of feeding themselves into a giant cash-crop farm. Since there is now no local food production, the former farmers are forced to move elseware. Rich man - slightly richer, poor farmers - house and job-less

George Obiazor, Nigerian envoy to US, is asking for further assistance and investment in the development of their country as recently as last winter. He's not scared of any US help or being exploited.

US Hydropower Council for International Development recently assisted the people of Guatemala (Pasabien river communities) by investing $$ and building a water tank with the capacity of 1 million litres, along with a chlorination system for safe drinking water for years to come. The US also gave free training and job placement for Guatemalans to maintain the system. - 2002

Indonesia - 59% of mothers giving birth now have access to a trained medical professional, up from 43% just six years ago thanks to USAID assistance. Since 2003, the US has sent approximately $157 million to Indonesian schools and helped rebuild the infrastructure of their public schools, which has helped 300,000 students & 24,000 administrators. Guess what?!! They reapplied for the program and hope to reach 650,000 students by 2010! What monsters we are!

I could list many more, but I'm sure you'll dismiss them with the tired old line of "yeah, but these countries remain enslaved to the US with massive amounts of debt they can never repay". Never admitting to the fact that we waive many of the foreign debts owed to us. You're welcome to check out how we help other countries of the world at http://www.usaid.gov/about_usaid/ But then again, it doesn't fit the Marxian template.

Your Space program; the greatest in the world?

Your Space Program is also a joke and your only means of delivering significant masses into orbit (the Space Shuttle) is the result of a bad compromise; it neither fufills it's role as a cheap, re-usable transport, or as a War Plane. While the Moon landings did provide a boost too several industries, they were ultimatly a political gesture and nothing more. As soon as it was discovered that there was nothing immediatly useful on the Moon, the entire thing was abandoned. If America was serious about the entire "Pioneers" thing, then their greatest success in Space shouldn't have ended 30 years ago; it should be happening right now.

Spinoff technologies that have benefited mankind as a result of our space program:

Hubble Space Telescope, CCD chips which detect malignant or benign tumors without the need for a surgical biopsy, Ground Processing Scheduling System which optimizes manufacturing production & integrated supply chains, Semiconductor Cubing, Structural Analysis which has crossed over into producing safer automobiles, WinVn software, Air Quality Monitor to ensure smokestack emissions are regulated and harmful gases are separated, Enriched baby food, water purification systems, weather forecasting...and the list goes on and on.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!

[luns101]

And you still haven't answered my question to do with what you would do if America performed a massacre on unarmed civilians.

Because it's a hypothetical. Nobody can answer a question about something that hasn't happened! What if, What if, What if...

[Fircoal]

You're right, Neutrino...I better move immediately. I've seen the light! I had no idea things were so terrible here. Perhaps I could live in the paradises that are North Korea or Cuba.

Where exactly, pray tell, have I said things in North Korea or Cuba were better than those in America?
What I was trying to point out is that no country is perfect; they all have their share of faults, therefore, no country should be deemed 'the best'.

And you still haven't answered my question to do with what you would do if America performed a massacre on unarmed civilians.

NEutrino speaks more truth.

[Fircoal]

Indonesia - 59% of mothers giving birth now have access to a trained medical professional, up from 43% just six years ago thanks to USAID assistance. Since 2003, the US has sent approximately $157 to Indonesian schools and helped rebuild the infrastructure of their public schools, which has helped 300,000 students & 24,000 administrators. Guess what?!! They reapplied for the program and hope to reach 650,000 students by 2010! What monsters we are!

I could list many more, but I'm sure you'll dismiss them with the tired old line of "yeah, but these countries remain enslaved to the US with massive amounts of debt they can never repay". Never admitting to the fact that we waive many of the foreign debts owed to us. You're welcome to check out how we help other countries of the world at http://www.usaid.gov/about_usaid/ But then again, it doesn't fit the Marxian template.

Wow, I can't believe I'm saying this, but it's pretty good proof.

[luns101]

Oh come on, luns, you know this isn't a valid argument.
The vast, vast majority of all immigrants do not, in fact, have sufficient funds to travel to wherever they wish if the country they are immigrating to dosen't turn out to be of their liking.

They fell for the propaganda and now they are stuck there.

It certainly is a valid argument. Somehow they found these "sufficient" funds to travel here in the first place. Where are your statistics proving that a "vast" majority of immigrants don't have these funds.

Oh, I forgot. The liberal tactic, just keep making accusations. If you make enough people will stop trying to refute your points.

[dwightschrute]

You're right, Neutrino...I better move immediately. I've seen the light! I had no idea things were so terrible here. Perhaps I could live in the paradises that are North Korea or Cuba.

Where exactly, pray tell, have I said things in North Korea or Cuba were better than those in America?
What I was trying to point out is that no country is perfect; they all have their share of faults, therefore, no country should be deemed 'the best'.

And you still haven't answered my question to do with what you would do if America performed a massacre on unarmed civilians.

NEutrino speaks more truth.

Fircoal you are just agreeing with anything anti what Luns is saying...cmon

[Fircoal]

You're right, Neutrino...I better move immediately. I've seen the light! I had no idea things were so terrible here. Perhaps I could live in the paradises that are North Korea or Cuba.

Where exactly, pray tell, have I said things in North Korea or Cuba were better than those in America?
What I was trying to point out is that no country is perfect; they all have their share of faults, therefore, no country should be deemed 'the best'.

And you still haven't answered my question to do with what you would do if America performed a massacre on unarmed civilians.

NEutrino speaks more truth.

Fircoal you are just agreeing with anything anti what Luns is saying...cmon

NO, I think that Neutrino is speaking the most truth, did you "miss" the post, when I said that Luns had a good point.

[Neutrino]

I'm hardly able to type after hearing your ridiculous statement of proof! Roy Pearson received nothing in his lawsuit which shows that our legal system does work. Sure, we have a couple of bad verdicts now and then. Why you chose this one to prove your point is beyond hilarious. You want to take him out and shoot him! What a tolerant person you are!! LOL

The fact he wasn't stripped of his judicial rank as soon as he tried to lodge that lawsuit proves that it dosen't work. The entire sueing thing is screwed up. That entire Brokeback Mountain thing is a good example. "I saw some men kissing! I want half a million dollars to make up for the severe mental trauma I suffered!".

And the shooting thing was a bad joke on my part. Will try to be less subtle next time.

The latest concrete numbers show that the average waiting time to see a physician is 46.5 minutes. The average length of stay is over 2 hours. You make it seem like people are dying out in the waiting room all over emergency rooms in the U.S., which is laughable. There are occasional stories of people who have to wait extremely long periods of time to see a doctor, but that is not the norm. Yeah, once in awhile someone dies, but it is not the norm. Some hospitals are even promising that if you are not seen within 15 minutes, the emergency room portion of the bill is waived. And another thing, some people voluntarily wait while more extreme cases are being treated, which weights the average towards that 2 hour figure.

I can only base any arguments on the US healthcare system on the Australian one (They are reasonably similar anyway) but from what i've seen, the entire thing is horribly understaffed. A few years ago, when I broke my arm, I went to a private hospital (I had private healthcover at that time) and the doctor that tended to me was a doctor from the public hospital. Even the private clinics were so understaffed that they had to pull a doctor away from the public hospital to tend to a kid with a broken arm.

I'm really having fun with this. You're just throwing out regurgitated liberal anti-US talking points. It reminds me of exaggerated Soviet accusations about our crime rates back during the 80's in order to deflect attention away from their inability to feed their own people.

Liberal? Why do you call me "Liberal"? I think abyone who clasifies themself so easily dosent have enough mental power to make up their own mind.

And why are you trying to polarise this? Why does it always end up as "Conservatives" v "Liberals". I could start talking about classic Conservative tactics as well and it wouldn't prove a single thing.

Yet, his party was voted out of power in the Congress last November. Why didn't he flex some of that dictatorial power in order to prevent that from happening.

...and yet again, the immigration policy that he championed was just defeated. How come those dictatorial powers didn't prevent that legislative setback?!! Sounds like you need to study the American system of checks and balances.

I didn't say that it is Communist China, i'm saying it's going in that direction. If he suddenly declares that he is God-Emperior Bush then there will massive revolts, while if he does it subtly; removing liberties and freedoms slowly in the name of combatting terrorism, then no-one will notice.

George Obiazor, Nigerian envoy to US, is asking for further assistance and investment in the development of their country as recently as last winter. He's not scared of any US help or being exploited.

US Hydropower Council for International Development recently assisted the people of Guatemala (Pasabien river communities) by investing $$ and building a water tank with the capacity of 1 million litres, along with a chlorination system for safe drinking water for years to come. The US also gave free training and job placement for Guatemalans to maintain the system. - 2002

Indonesia - 59% of mothers giving birth now have access to a trained medical professional, up from 43% just six years ago thanks to USAID assistance. Since 2003, the US has sent approximately $157 (now that's a lot of money!) to Indonesian schools and helped rebuild the infrastructure of their public schools, which has helped 300,000 students & 24,000 administrators. Guess what?!! They reapplied for the program and hope to reach 650,000 students by 2010! What monsters we are!

I could list many more, but I'm sure you'll dismiss them with the tired old line of "yeah, but these countries remain enslaved to the US with massive amounts of debt they can never repay". Never admitting to the fact that we waive many of the foreign debts owed to us. You're welcome to check out how we help other countries of the world at http://www.usaid.gov/about_usaid/ But then again, it doesn't fit the Marxian template.

Please, show me were I have said the USA is the devil incarnate and every possible thing it does is wrong?
Yes, the USA has sone many great things, but it has also done many bad things.
My example was trying to show how easily Capitalism can be manipulated by the rich to further the causes of the rich. It had nothing to do with either the USA or Marxism.

Spinoff technologies that have benefited mankind as a result of our space program:

Hubble Space Telescope, CCD chips which detect malignant or benign tumors without the need for a surgical biopsy, Ground Processing Scheduling System which optimizes manufacturing production & integrated supply chains, Semiconductor Cubing, Structural Analysis which has crossed over into producing safer automobiles, WinVn software, Air Quality Monitor to ensure smokestack emissions are regulated and harmful gases are separated, Enriched baby food, water purification systems, weather forecasting...and the list goes on and on.

Relevance, please...?
I never said anywhere that a Space Program is a bad thing. All those technologies are great, but you are totally missing the point. What I was trying to say is that if the USA were really pioneers, like they claim, then they would have more than a token Space Program.

If the USA was serious about it then they could have easily reached Mars or further by now. There could be a whole industry in space. As it is all we have are some old, badly designed shuttles and the massively overpriced ISS.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!

There is nothing more to say.

[Neutrino]

And you still haven't answered my question to do with what you would do if America performed a massacre on unarmed civilians.

Because it's a hypothetical. Nobody can answer a question about something that hasn't happened! What if, What if, What if...

Come on, use that god-given forebrain...

I'm not asking you to predict, in-depth, exactly what political ramifications a civilian massacre will have, all I am asking you is will you still be proud to be an American citizen if this happened?

Will you still be 'patriotic'?

[unriggable]

They aren't given all the facts before they enter, my mom comes from belgium and what she tells me that what she heard about the US before entering seemed like a utopia compared to the real thing.

No country is a utopia. I'm wondering who told her that. Did your mother decide to stay here in the US or return to Belgium?

She's still here but she talks about moving.

The fact is that America is described as a country where one can become whoever they want, when that is not true at all. Who told her that is anybody's guess.

[magneticgoop]

luns i,m with you America is the best place in the world. if anyone can name a better all around country i'm packing my bags and moving tomorrow. no token well luxemberg has a better health care system, i mean better all around. we arent perfect but were the best of the bunch

[luns101]

The fact he wasn't stripped of his judicial rank as soon as he tried to lodge that lawsuit proves that it dosen't work. The entire sueing thing is screwed up. That entire Brokeback Mountain thing is a good example. "I saw some men kissing! I want half a million dollars to make up for the severe mental trauma I suffered!".

The verdict was just recently put out. Give it some time and you may see his license revoked. These things take time. Are we to expect an "instant" verdict according to popular will? No, we must have a system where everyone is heard out (even ridiculous people) and the facts are weighed. Time lets people take a deep breath and make reasonable decisions. I doubt that girl will get any $$ out of the suit, but the teacher will be reprimanded in some fashion. You're taking two extreme cases and making a judgment about our legal system based on them.

I can only base any arguments on the US healthcare system on the Australian one (They are reasonably similar anyway) but from what i've seen, the entire thing is horribly understaffed. A few years ago, when I broke my arm, I went to a private hospital (I had private healthcover at that time) and the doctor that tended to me was a doctor from the public hospital. Even the private clinics were so understaffed that they had to pull a doctor away from the public hospital to tend to a kid with a broken arm.

Well, I don't think that you can make arguments against the US healthcare system based on your country's. I am sorry to hear about your experience with a broken arm, and I hope that you have healed...seriously.

Liberal? Why do you call me "Liberal"? I think abyone who clasifies themself so easily dosent have enough mental power to make up their own mind.

Because your points coincide mostly with what liberal politicians here espouse. I hear the talking points but I rarely see facts posted - just rhetoric and hypotheticals. I think others here have been the one to "polarize" this subject as all I said was I'm happy to be living in what I consider to be the greatest country on earth. It doesn't mean I think Americans are better than others.

And why are you trying to polarise this? Why does it always end up as "Conservatives" v "Liberals". I could start talking about classic Conservative tactics as well and it wouldn't prove a single thing.

I'm polarizing this?!! You're the one that labeled my country's healthcare and legal system as a joke.

I didn't say that it is Communist China, i'm saying it's going in that direction. If he suddenly declares that he is God-Emperior Bush then there will massive revolts, while if he does it subtly; removing liberties and freedoms slowly in the name of combatting terrorism, then no-one will notice.

Once again filled with hypotheticals...not reality. You also claimed his dictatorial powers were "proof" of this. Proof is based in reality, not a hypothetical.

Please, show me were I have said the USA is the devil incarnate and every possible thing it does is wrong?
Yes, the USA has sone many great things, but it has also done many bad things. My example was trying to show how easily Capitalism can be manipulated by the rich to further the causes of the rich. It had nothing to do with either the USA or Marxism.

Of course I can't show you where you said it because you never said it...and guess what?...I never claimed that you said it so stop shifting the discussion. I refuted your insinuation that the United States manipulates 3rd world countries for the purpose of putting them into debt and hoarding tons of $$ so nobody else in the world can have it. We help the 3rd world in many areas because (1) it is morally good to do so, and (2) it makes good business sense to help developing countries prosper.

Relevance, please...?

To show you and others that may read this thread that space exploration was not simply for the purpose of showing up the Russians as a "political gesture" as you put it. It has aided mankind in a variety of ways here on earth and will continue to do so.

I never said anywhere that a Space Program is a bad thing.

No, not in those exact words, but you did criticize the USA's space program when you said:

Your Space Program is also a joke and your only means of delivering significant masses into orbit (the Space Shuttle) is the result of a bad compromise; it neither fufills it's role as a cheap, re-usable transport, or as a War Plane. While the Moon landings did provide a boost too several industries, they were ultimatly a political gesture and nothing more. As soon as it was discovered that there was nothing immediatly useful on the Moon, the entire thing was abandoned.

If the USA was serious about it then they could have easily reached Mars or further by now.

How do you know this? How "easy" is it land a manned spacecraft on another planet? I'm not an expert and I'm assuming you aren't either. I would guess it's actually quite difficult and takes a lot of planning.

As it is all we have are some old, badly designed shuttles and the massively overpriced ISS.

Yes, but Bruce Willis and Ben Affleck need those in order to save the world from future asteroids hurling towards earth (my poor attempt at humor ) We do have plans to return to the moon and study it in depth. Repairing and maintaining the ISS is part of our long-term plan. We do plan to go to Mars. We're not doing these things to thumb our nose at the rest of the world. You can read about it for yourself here:

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/explo ... index.html