Braveheart

[Stopper]

Bloody travesty!

I did wonder whether I should have notified you of this.

[cawck mongler]

from that day the Pike was a military tactic in all wars of western europe.....until the invention of the gun.

Bullshit, they used the pike thousands of years before that, you ever heard of Greek hoplites, they're in the 300 movie that every other post is about, READ BEFORE YOU POST DAMMIT. And they never stopped using it, it did die down for awhile, but it wasn't a scottish rebellion in England that brought it back (how the f*ck would it spread out of England? Jesus christ your a moron, there's no way the English could've influenced everysingle other Western kingdom at the time, especially with such as simple tactic), it would have come back naturally, its not that hard to think up the pikewall tactic.

[AndrewLC]

from that day the Pike was a military tactic in all wars of western europe.....until the invention of the gun.

Bullshit, they used the pike thousands of years before that, you ever heard of Greek hoplites, they're in the 300 movie that every other post is about, READ BEFORE YOU POST DAMMIT. And they never stopped using it, it did die down for awhile, but it wasn't a scottish rebellion in England that brought it back (how the f*ck would it spread out of England? Jesus christ your a moron, there's no way the English could've influenced everysingle other Western kingdom at the time, especially with such as simple tactic), it would have come back naturally, its not that hard to think up the pikewall tactic.

You read my mind.

[Guiscard]

from that day the Pike was a military tactic in all wars of western europe.....until the invention of the gun.

Bullshit, they used the pike thousands of years before that, you ever heard of Greek hoplites, they're in the 300 movie that every other post is about, READ BEFORE YOU POST DAMMIT. And they never stopped using it, it did die down for awhile, but it wasn't a scottish rebellion in England that brought it back (how the f*ck would it spread out of England? Jesus christ your a moron, there's no way the English could've influenced everysingle other Western kingdom at the time, especially with such as simple tactic), it would have come back naturally, its not that hard to think up the pikewall tactic.

You so vehmently pointed out that pikes were used by the Greek hoplites as exhibited in the film 300, but that is wrong. They used spears (doru) which were significantly shorter than the pike. The invention of the pike (or sarissa) is generally accredited to the military reforms of Philip of Macedon (Alexander's father), where they were deployed in phalanx formation to deadly effect. The length and tactic used (i.e. a closed defensive formation) are the important aspects.

The original poster is actually fairly near the mark in his assumption that the pike became the weapon of choice after the Scots used it to great effect. The Romans phased out pike warfare after the collapse of the Macedonian empire in favour of the gladius, and it only really returned in the 13th/14th century. The pike was used by urban militias such as those found in Scotland, but also Flanders and certain areas of Italy, as an effective way to combat the previously dominant knights. And yes, it did spread from those areas because it became recognised as a tactic for combating heavy cavalry. It had to 'start' again somewhere, and Scotland or Flanders are as good a bet as anywhere for spreading early influence...

I wasn't going to bother, but your intense irritation without much knowledge decided it. Just chill out a bit next time before you blast someone without actually getting your facts right.

[Nobunaga]

... The hoplites of ancient Greece used the phalanx formation as their principle tool, and spears as their weapons (not pikes).

... Same basic principle stands when facing charging horses, however.

.... Just wiki'd "pike" and found this:

Although very long spears had been used since the dawn of organized warfare, the earliest recorded use of a pike-like weapon in the tactical method described above involved the Macedonian sarissa, used by the troops of Alexander the Great's father, Philip II of Macedon, and successive Hellenistic dynasties, which dominated warfare for several centuries in many countries. The formidable wall of spearpoints gave pause even to the legionaries of Rome, but after several fierce contests the legionary style of warfare overthrew the Macedonian phalanx, and the pike faded from use in Western warfare for many centuries.

... so no... Wallace didn't invent pike warfare, it seems. Though it is possible he had never heard of such a thing, and came up with the idea from scratch, in his own head. (though omehow, I doubt it).

... (Edit) : seems Guiscard beat me to it.

...

[Guiscard]

... The hoplites of ancient Greece used the phalanx formation as their principle tool, and spears as their weapons (not pikes).

... Same basic principle stands when facing charging horses, however.

.... Just wiki'd "pike" and found this:

Although very long spears had been used since the dawn of organized warfare, the earliest recorded use of a pike-like weapon in the tactical method described above involved the Macedonian sarissa, used by the troops of Alexander the Great's father, Philip II of Macedon, and successive Hellenistic dynasties, which dominated warfare for several centuries in many countries. The formidable wall of spearpoints gave pause even to the legionaries of Rome, but after several fierce contests the legionary style of warfare overthrew the Macedonian phalanx, and the pike faded from use in Western warfare for many centuries.

... so no... Wallace didn't invent pike warfare, it seems. Though it is possible he had never heard of such a thing, and came up with the idea from scratch, in his own head. (though omehow, I doubt it).

...

Well we obviously think alike sometimes... although copying wikipedia was a shorter route to the answer than by diatribe...

[Nobunaga]

... I'm a fan of history. The older the better.

... Gotta love Wikipedia:

In 1997, a statue of “William Wallace” was placed in the car park of the Wallace Monument. The statue however appeared not to resemble the historic face of Wallace; rather it seemed to be modelled after Mel Gibson's appearance as Wallace in the film Braveheart. Wallace’s shield even reads the word ‘Braveheart’ as can be seen on the image on the left.

William Temby[1] claimed that Scottish people found this disturbing and that groups have agitiated for the removal of the statue due to its obvious lack of authenticity. Officials denied this request, and the statue has been subject to regular vandalism. As a result it was, incongruously for a sculpture that bears the word "freedom", enclosed in a security fence.[1] According to the Rampant Scotland Newsletter, as of September 2004, with the lease for the space it occupies due to expire, the statue was for sale at an asking price of £350,000 with no takers.

...

[cawck mongler]

You so vehmently pointed out that pikes were used by the Greek hoplites as exhibited in the film 300, but that is wrong. They used spears (doru) which were significantly shorter than the pike. The invention of the pike (or sarissa) is generally accredited to the military reforms of Philip of Macedon (Alexander's father), where they were deployed in phalanx formation to deadly effect. The length and tactic used (i.e. a closed defensive formation) are the important aspects.

The original poster is actually fairly near the mark in his assumption that the pike became the weapon of choice after the Scots used it to great effect. The Romans phased out pike warfare after the collapse of the Macedonian empire in favour of the gladius, and it only really returned in the 13th/14th century. The pike was used by urban militias such as those found in Scotland, but also Flanders and certain areas of Italy, as an effective way to combat the previously dominant knights. And yes, it did spread from those areas because it became recognised as a tactic for combating heavy cavalry. It had to 'start' again somewhere, and Scotland or Flanders are as good a bet as anywhere for spreading early influence...

I wasn't going to bother, but your intense irritation without much knowledge decided it. Just chill out a bit next time before you blast someone without actually getting your facts right.

The hoplites under Alexander and his father were still hoplites though, right? I didn't know that they wern't used before then, but I never said they were, I just know that pikes had existed a long time before William Wallace.

And, yes maybe the Scottish used pikes around the time that they started to become common, but that doesn't mean that they started the trend, and the use of pikes certainly didn't spark from William Wallaces use of them in one particular battle, as the original poster claimed (he might have not said a certain battle, but it still didn't stem from William Wallaces use). William Wallace really had no influence outside of the British Isles, so it's stupid to think that he did.

I'm sure other places used the pike to, like I said its not hard a hard strategy to think up, the only reason William Wallace and the celts are being credited with it is because its a well known event and this is a thread about them. If this thread was about the Last Samurai, the same dumbass would be all "HAY U GUYZ GES WERE GUNPOWER WAS INVYNTED LOL". Also, nothing I said was wrong.

[Huckleberryhound]

You so vehmently pointed out that pikes were used by the Greek hoplites as exhibited in the film 300, but that is wrong. They used spears (doru) which were significantly shorter than the pike. The invention of the pike (or sarissa) is generally accredited to the military reforms of Philip of Macedon (Alexander's father), where they were deployed in phalanx formation to deadly effect. The length and tactic used (i.e. a closed defensive formation) are the important aspects.

The original poster is actually fairly near the mark in his assumption that the pike became the weapon of choice after the Scots used it to great effect. The Romans phased out pike warfare after the collapse of the Macedonian empire in favour of the gladius, and it only really returned in the 13th/14th century. The pike was used by urban militias such as those found in Scotland, but also Flanders and certain areas of Italy, as an effective way to combat the previously dominant knights. And yes, it did spread from those areas because it became recognised as a tactic for combating heavy cavalry. It had to 'start' again somewhere, and Scotland or Flanders are as good a bet as anywhere for spreading early influence...

I wasn't going to bother, but your intense irritation without much knowledge decided it. Just chill out a bit next time before you blast someone without actually getting your facts right.

The hoplites under Alexander and his father were still hoplites though, right? I didn't know that they wern't used before then, but I never said they were, I just know that pikes had existed a long time before William Wallace.

And, yes maybe the Scottish used pikes around the time that they started to become common, but that doesn't mean that they started the trend, and the use of pikes certainly didn't spark from William Wallaces use of them in one particular battle, as the original poster claimed (he might have not said a certain battle, but it still didn't stem from William Wallaces use). William Wallace really had no influence outside of the British Isles, so it's stupid to think that he did.

I'm sure other places used the pike to, like I said its not hard a hard strategy to think up, the only reason William Wallace and the celts are being credited with it is because its a well known event and this is a thread about them. If this thread was about the Last Samurai, the same dumbass would be all "HAY U GUYZ GES WERE GUNPOWER WAS INVYNTED LOL". Also, nothing I said was wrong.

The Use of the schiltron tactic was used to defeat the heavy horse after Stirling bridge, and change the shape of battle in europe until the gun came into play...that was my statement, and i made it without insults....something you seem too immature to do.......therefore



wank stain !!!

[AndrewLC]

from that day the Pike was a military tactic in all wars of western europe.....until the invention of the gun.

Bullshit, they used the pike thousands of years before that, you ever heard of Greek hoplites, they're in the 300 movie that every other post is about, READ BEFORE YOU POST DAMMIT. And they never stopped using it, it did die down for awhile, but it wasn't a scottish rebellion in England that brought it back (how the f*ck would it spread out of England? Jesus christ your a moron, there's no way the English could've influenced everysingle other Western kingdom at the time, especially with such as simple tactic), it would have come back naturally, its not that hard to think up the pikewall tactic.

You so vehmently pointed out that pikes were used by the Greek hoplites as exhibited in the film 300, but that is wrong. They used spears (doru) which were significantly shorter than the pike. The invention of the pike (or sarissa) is generally accredited to the military reforms of Philip of Macedon (Alexander's father), where they were deployed in phalanx formation to deadly effect. The length and tactic used (i.e. a closed defensive formation) are the important aspects.

The original poster is actually fairly near the mark in his assumption that the pike became the weapon of choice after the Scots used it to great effect. The Romans phased out pike warfare after the collapse of the Macedonian empire in favour of the gladius, and it only really returned in the 13th/14th century. The pike was used by urban militias such as those found in Scotland, but also Flanders and certain areas of Italy, as an effective way to combat the previously dominant knights. And yes, it did spread from those areas because it became recognised as a tactic for combating heavy cavalry. It had to 'start' again somewhere, and Scotland or Flanders are as good a bet as anywhere for spreading early influence...

I wasn't going to bother, but your intense irritation without much knowledge decided it. Just chill out a bit next time before you blast someone without actually getting your facts right.

To be fair, Macedonians are often grouped with Greeks and even most history books say Alexander was a Greek (Which i know he was a Macedonian, I'm just saying its a common mistake)

[Jenos Ridan]

... The hoplites of ancient Greece used the phalanx formation as their principle tool, and spears as their weapons (not pikes).

... Same basic principle stands when facing charging horses, however.

.... Just wiki'd "pike" and found this:

Although very long spears had been used since the dawn of organized warfare, the earliest recorded use of a pike-like weapon in the tactical method described above involved the Macedonian sarissa, used by the troops of Alexander the Great's father, Philip II of Macedon, and successive Hellenistic dynasties, which dominated warfare for several centuries in many countries. The formidable wall of spearpoints gave pause even to the legionaries of Rome, but after several fierce contests the legionary style of warfare overthrew the Macedonian phalanx, and the pike faded from use in Western warfare for many centuries.

... so no... Wallace didn't invent pike warfare, it seems. Though it is possible he had never heard of such a thing, and came up with the idea from scratch, in his own head. (though omehow, I doubt it).

...

Well we obviously think alike sometimes... although copying wikipedia was a shorter route to the answer than by diatribe...

Ah.....
reason, deductive logic and research. Wins every time.
I like it.

[Jenos Ridan]

I thought B.K. Baroness was old, Jenos fought in the american cival war!

Yeah, beings how I was born in the year 1240-something in what used to be called Prussia to a Teutonic noble family ..........

That and how you personally recall things about it and made the equally absurd statement, "we had reason to be alittle irate and even riot," as if you were present.

Doesn't invalidate the fact that they were irate over a lot of things and rioted over them. The rest is sarcasum.

[cawck mongler]

To be fair, Macedonians are often grouped with Greeks and even most history books say Alexander was a Greek (Which i know he was a Macedonian, I'm just saying its a common mistake)

Alexander was definitely Macedonian, however he commanded Greek troops. Macedonia is a small area above Greece, in ancient times they had a very different culture then Greeks, however the Macedonian kings always tried to mingle in Greek affairs, because Greece was the center of the world back then (for the Mediterraneans anyways, Persia was the superpower of the time, unless you want to go as far east as China and India). Most Macedonians could even speak Greek, and not just the nobles either, but they still had a very different culture. Somehow Alexanders father gained control of Greece, much to the dismay of Greek aristocracy, and did a bunch of stuff to reform the Greek army. Then somehow he died (forget if it was assassination or what) and Alexander took control of the Army and went on to invade Persia with both the Greek and Macedonian armies.

Now Macedonia is mainly divided between Greece and Bulgaria, both countries have gone to lengths to stomp out the Macedonian culture, forcefully outlawing its language and customs.

[AndrewLC]

To be fair, Macedonians are often grouped with Greeks and even most history books say Alexander was a Greek (Which i know he was a Macedonian, I'm just saying its a common mistake)

Alexander was definitely Macedonian, however he commanded Greek troops. Macedonia is a small area above Greece, in ancient times they had a very different culture then Greeks, however the Macedonian kings always tried to mingle in Greek affairs, because Greece was the center of the world back then (for the Mediterraneans anyways, Persia was the superpower of the time, unless you want to go as far east as China and India). Most Macedonians could even speak Greek, and not just the nobles either, but they still had a very different culture. Somehow Alexanders father gained control of Greece, much to the dismay of Greek aristocracy, and did a bunch of stuff to reform the Greek army. Then somehow he died (forget if it was assassination or what) and Alexander took control of the Army and went on to invade Persia with both the Greek and Macedonian armies.

Now Macedonia is mainly divided between Greece and Bulgaria, both countries have gone to lengths to stomp out the Macedonian culture, forcefully outlawing its language and customs.

I know all this, I'm just saying that its easy to get confused between the 2

[Jenos Ridan]

To be fair, Macedonians are often grouped with Greeks and even most history books say Alexander was a Greek (Which i know he was a Macedonian, I'm just saying its a common mistake)

Alexander was definitely Macedonian, however he commanded Greek troops. Macedonia is a small area above Greece, in ancient times they had a very different culture then Greeks, however the Macedonian kings always tried to mingle in Greek affairs, because Greece was the center of the world back then (for the Mediterraneans anyways, Persia was the superpower of the time, unless you want to go as far east as China and India). Most Macedonians could even speak Greek, and not just the nobles either, but they still had a very different culture. Somehow Alexanders father gained control of Greece, much to the dismay of Greek aristocracy, and did a bunch of stuff to reform the Greek army. Then somehow he died (forget if it was assassination or what) and Alexander took control of the Army and went on to invade Persia with both the Greek and Macedonian armies.

Now Macedonia is mainly divided between Greece and Bulgaria, both countries have gone to lengths to stomp out the Macedonian culture, forcefully outlawing its language and customs.

Bravo , and you did it right. Bravo, sir.

[Minister Masket]

How on Earth did we get from Braveheart to Greek History?

[Jenos Ridan]

How on Earth did we get from Braveheart to Greek History?

We got here because some idiot said that 300 as more accurate than Braveheart. Speaking of 'historical films' ever see the following:

Das Boot

Druids

Glory

Gettysburg

There was one other, based on Oda Nobunaga, produced entirely in Japan in the 80's

[Guiscard]

To be fair, Macedonians are often grouped with Greeks and even most history books say Alexander was a Greek (Which i know he was a Macedonian, I'm just saying its a common mistake)

Yeh, my point was that the Greek hoplites of that period, the wars with ,were not pikemen in the sense of using the same length of polearm and close defensive tactics, whereas later Macedonian-influenced troops, including many Greeks, were.

[cawck mongler]

How on Earth did we get from Braveheart to Greek History?

Because some dumbass thinks that William Wallace is smarter then the entire Greek civilisation. HE WAS A FISHERMAN OR SOME SHITTY THING JESUS CHRIST, probably the biggest retard in history yet he gets credited with changing how every single battle ever was fought, man what a world. And his names so stupid, his parents were probably thinking along the lines of 'lets name him Chad McBad, that way it sounds Scottish, and it rhymes!', yes I know, William Wallace doesn't rhyme, but it does have two W's in it, if someone came up to you and said his name was Karl King, you'd think its a pretty fucked up name, well same goes for William Wallace.

[Jenos Ridan]

How on Earth did we get from Braveheart to Greek History?

Because some dumbass thinks that William Wallace is smarter then the entire Greek civilisation. HE WAS A FISHERMAN OR SOME SHITTY THING JESUS CHRIST, probably the biggest retard in history yet he gets credited with changing how every single battle ever was fought, man what a world. And his names so stupid, his parents were probably thinking along the lines of 'lets name him Chad McBad, that way it sounds Scottish, and it rhymes!', yes I know, William Wallace doesn't rhyme, but it does have two W's in it, if someone came up to you and said his name was Karl King, you'd think its a pretty fucked up name, well same goes for William Wallace.

Different than how I handled it, and I'd already addressed that point. But props dude, props.