Braveheart

[Nobunaga]

Also remember that Wallace wasn't fighting for the Scottish people, he was fighting for Scottish royals. Scots would still have been oppressed, just by different people

... That would've made for a crappy film. Gotta' stick with the historical-fantasy on that one.

...

[DAZMCFC]

the trouble is - i believe that most americans receive all their non-american history through watching american made movies - such as braveheart.
this results in a cliched, over-simplified, and sometimes totally untrue view of events, often confused with historical fact.

so it does matter - that a film that supposedly portrays historical fact
should be as accurate as possible - would that be so bad - and then perhaps
the american audience would better informed, and better able to understand
the rest of the world.

If you want entertainment then would it matter if, say, braveheart was
re-titled and based entirely on a fictional character?

BTW this is not a slur on americans - my knowledge of american history
is largely drawn from cowboy films ...

the thing is though bouncer, most americans could not give a toss about the rest of the world. which is fair enough, braveheart was brilliant, when scotland played england at wembley in the euro play-off, i watched braveheart before the match to get into the spirit of things and beating the english(i know i was born and live in england, but with scottish family, i support scotland). we won 1-0, but it was not enough england had won at hampden 2-0 with that little munich shit paul scholes scoring twice.

[The1exile]

It's a good film.

Frankly I don't give a flying f*ck about the war history of the english and scots, I would rather use history as an excuse to ridicule the french

[Huckleberryhound]

:lol: @ Stopper (its funny 'cause its true!)

Then....arghhh. Bloody Mel Gibson - he comes from the "butchers" school of history. Don't get me started on "the Patriot" (Freed the slaves?! The slaves joined the British in hugh numbers to fight against their oppressors)

And Braveheart - there wasn't even a bridge in the battle of Stirling bridge for f*ck's sake. And those napam fireball thinks he made - Jesus, Hollywood can't make a film without an explosion...

I could go through the film and list all the basic truths about it, the battles, the means of his eventual death. In truth, it is a drama based around actual events, and if you are looking for attrocities against the Scots, the battle of Culloden and it's aftermath is a more recent and more haenous event.

I disagree with your last statement. The Jacobean war was in reality a Civil War, many Scots and English fought on both sides - it was not a war for independence but a war of succession and religious politics. I think you are confusing "Scots" with "Highlanders".

What has what you said got to do with my statement ? The Duke of Cumberland set out after the end of the Battle of culloden to to wipe the Highlanders off the face of the map. All those captured alive after the battle were rounded up, put in buildings under the supervision of English criminal conscripts and left to die, there was then an attempt to ethnically cleanse Scotland of the highland people.....By order of the English.

How is that not worse than death in battle of fighting men ?

Useless, but interesting fact - The song Loch Lomond was a durge supposed to depict the words of a Jacobean fighter as he rotted in one of these buildings. The Highroad was the road to Inverness, and the low road was Death...hence

You tak the high road,
I'll tak the low road
And i'll be in Scotland before you
For me and my true love will never meet again
on the bonnie, bonnie banks of Loch Lomond.

[luns101]

I'm actually decended from Robert the Bruce and William Wallace.

I've never heard a non-American say this before.

oh yeah, well....

I'm Spartacus!

[2dimes]

Who was involved in culloden?

Was that clan chattam?

[The1exile]

I'm actually decended from Robert the Bruce and William Wallace.

I've never heard a non-American say this before.

oh yeah, well....

I'm Spartacus!

[unriggable]

Spartacus this

[Guiscard]

:lol: @ Stopper (its funny 'cause its true!)

Then....arghhh. Bloody Mel Gibson - he comes from the "butchers" school of history. Don't get me started on "the Patriot" (Freed the slaves?! The slaves joined the British in hugh numbers to fight against their oppressors)

And Braveheart - there wasn't even a bridge in the battle of Stirling bridge for f*ck's sake. And those napam fireball thinks he made - Jesus, Hollywood can't make a film without an explosion...

I could go through the film and list all the basic truths about it, the battles, the means of his eventual death. In truth, it is a drama based around actual events, and if you are looking for attrocities against the Scots, the battle of Culloden and it's aftermath is a more recent and more haenous event.

I disagree with your last statement. The Jacobean war was in reality a Civil War, many Scots and English fought on both sides - it was not a war for independence but a war of succession and religious politics. I think you are confusing "Scots" with "Highlanders".

I'm generally a stickler for historical accuracy, and Braveheart is a pet hate... The battles, whilst spectacular, are entirely ridiculous. For one, they tramp across half of Scotland without a single speck of mud on their wonderfully unauthentic Kilts!

[bob3603]

:lol: @ Stopper (its funny 'cause its true!)

Then....arghhh. Bloody Mel Gibson - he comes from the "butchers" school of history. Don't get me started on "the Patriot" (Freed the slaves?! The slaves joined the British in hugh numbers to fight against their oppressors)

And Braveheart - there wasn't even a bridge in the battle of Stirling bridge for f*ck's sake. And those napam fireball thinks he made - Jesus, Hollywood can't make a film without an explosion...

I could go through the film and list all the basic truths about it, the battles, the means of his eventual death. In truth, it is a drama based around actual events, and if you are looking for attrocities against the Scots, the battle of Culloden and it's aftermath is a more recent and more haenous event.

I disagree with your last statement. The Jacobean war was in reality a Civil War, many Scots and English fought on both sides - it was not a war for independence but a war of succession and religious politics. I think you are confusing "Scots" with "Highlanders".

I'm generally a stickler for historical accuracy, and Braveheart is a pet hate... The battles, whilst spectacular, are entirely ridiculous. For one, they tramp across half of Scotland without a single speck of mud on their wonderfully unauthentic Kilts!

...not to mention the lack of a certain important bridge.

[Jenos Ridan]

:

Don't get me started on "the Patriot" (Freed the slaves?! The slaves joined the British in huge numbers to fight against their oppressors)

Uh, the Continental Army did imploy blacks in the war effort as troops, mainly in volunteer status like the white troops. After that, they became 'freedmen'. Not that that was that, it still took about 80-some years for slavery to be flat-out outlawed and another century after that to outlaw racial prejudgace.

[Guiscard]

:

Don't get me started on "the Patriot" (Freed the slaves?! The slaves joined the British in huge numbers to fight against their oppressors)

Uh, the Continental Army did imploy blacks in the war effort as troops, mainly in volunteer status like the white troops. After that, they became 'freedmen'. Not that that was that, it still took about 80-some years for slavery to be flat-out outlawed and another century after that to outlaw racial prejudgace.

I think he's saying that the movie generally portrayed the good American rebels as the saviours of the slaves, whereas in reality the overwhelming response was that the slaves went to and fought for the British for whatever reason. Make of that what you will...

[glide]

Excellent movie.......historically factual or not.........and besides.....I think Im decended from the crazy Irish bugger.......heheheh

[diddle]

Spartacus this

[RobinJ]

Who gives a f*ck about historical accuracy? The movie is brilliant, although I've watched it rather too many times

[war_bloodline]

Who was involved in culloden?

Well the Jacobites (Scots) *cheer* and the Hanoverians (English) *boo*.

1,200 Jacobites killed to 50 English killed.

Commanders
Jacobites-Charles Edward Stuart
Hanoverians-Duke of Cumberland

[Jenos Ridan]

:

Don't get me started on "the Patriot" (Freed the slaves?! The slaves joined the British in huge numbers to fight against their oppressors)

Uh, the Continental Army did imploy blacks in the war effort as troops, mainly in volunteer status like the white troops. After that, they became 'freedmen'. Not that that was that, it still took about 80-some years for slavery to be flat-out outlawed and another century after that to outlaw racial prejudgace.

I think he's saying that the movie generally portrayed the good American rebels as the saviours of the slaves, whereas in reality the overwhelming response was that the slaves went to and fought for the British for whatever reason. Make of that what you will...

I recall certain Indian Tribes helping the British out, because of one of the other reasons we rebelled, the ban on westward expansion. So, Un-fair taxes here (pissing off the Yankee Traders in the north) and the Pontiac Treaty (pissing off the rest of the colonies). Add troops being garrisoned in private residences and the bannind and even imprisonment of legal assemblies...I think we can see that maybe we had reason to be alittle irate and even riot, then the rioters are shot, the media flashes the atrocity allover and now you've got a militia group storming a royal armory at Ticonderoga. Too late now, you've got war.

[flashleg8]

[...]and if you are looking for attrocities against the Scots, the battle of Culloden and it's aftermath is a more recent and more haenous event.

I disagree with your last statement. The Jacobean war was in reality a Civil War, many Scots and English fought on both sides - it was not a war for independence but a war of succession and religious politics. I think you are confusing "Scots" with "Highlanders".

What has what you said got to do with my statement ? The Duke of Cumberland set out after the end of the Battle of culloden to to wipe the Highlanders off the face of the map. All those captured alive after the battle were rounded up, put in buildings under the supervision of English criminal conscripts and left to die, there was then an attempt to ethnically cleanse Scotland of the highland people.....By order of the English.

How is that not worse than death in battle of fighting men ?

I'm not disputing the fact that atrocities were commited and that the Highlanders were targeted and their way of life and clan system was violently shattered, just the fact that this is soley perpetrated by the English. In actual fact this war was far more about religion and royal sucession than nationalism. The lowland Scots regarded the highland clans as an anacronism and mainly supported the efforts of the Prodostant Union in their efforts to bring the ungovernable clans under the law. The English and Scottish nobility were divided on which King's claim to support.

Who was involved in culloden?

Well the Jacobites (Scots) *cheer* and the Hanoverians (English) *boo*.

1,200 Jacobites killed to 50 English killed.

Commanders
Jacobites-Charles Edward Stuart
Hanoverians-Duke of Cumberland

Again the Jacobite army at Culloden was mainly Scottish Highland Clansmen (Catholic) with some Scottish lowlanders of Episcopal church fighting Government regular troops of Scottish and English nationality supported by irregular troops raised from the lowlands with some highland clansmen also.

This was not a Scottland vs England battle. English Jacobites raised in Carlisle intended to fight in this battle too.

Don't let Scottish Nationalism re-write history.

[2dimes]

I thought B.K. Baroness was old, Jenos fought in the american cival war!

[Jenos Ridan]

I thought B.K. Baroness was old, Jenos fought in the american cival war!

Yeah, beings how I was born in the year 1240-something in what used to be called Prussia to a Teutonic noble family ..........

[AndrewLC]

Has anyone been to the Wallace Monument in Sterling? There's a statue there of Willy and it looks exactly like Mel Gibson

EDIT:
Here it is:

[chessplaya]

the patriot

[Nobunaga]

[quote="AndrewLC"]Has anyone been to the Wallace Monument in Sterling? There's a statue there of Willy and it looks exactly like Mel Gibson

... Why does his shield read, "BRAVEHEART"?

...

[flashleg8]

Has anyone been to the Wallace Monument in Sterling? There's a statue there of Willy and it looks exactly like Mel Gibson

EDIT:
Here it is:

Bloody travesty!

[2dimes]

I thought B.K. Baroness was old, Jenos fought in the american cival war!

Yeah, beings how I was born in the year 1240-something in what used to be called Prussia to a Teutonic noble family ..........

That and how you personally recall things about it and made the equally absurd statement, "we had reason to be alittle irate and even riot," as if you were present.