Illegal Immigration

[ksslemp]

As I have stated before a couple times now, I am against illegal immigrants coming in here, it is a problem that needs to be solved. But not by: a.) building a bigger fence, or b.) adding more patrol units. As for the ones who are already here, they should stay for the sole reason that forcing them to leave would hurt the American economy tremendously, and would do more harm than good Offering Mexico aid is one very good way to solve the problem, again, as I have stated about 3 or 4 times now. The other alternative is what spurgistan offered, that we punish companies who offer jobs to illegal immigrants. The problem with this, is that the politician who had the unfortunate job of proposing such a bill would be commiting political suicide, because, once again as I have stated before, many businesses are responsible for funding election campaigns, and in today's age, without advertising, a politician is most likely doomed. The businessman is a powerful force. And again, as I have stated before a million times, most who enter illegally first try to enter legally but cannot because they would likely die before being allowed to enter. Many problems could be solved by making the green card easier to obtain. I have offered alternatives constantly throughout this thread. If you had the courtesy of even bothering to read my posts instead of giving them a cursory glance, you would know that I said all this.

P.S. I have bolded some parts, but that does not mean you should just look at them, try and read the entire post.

Yes i've read your threads and i understand the problem clearly!
Obviously just building more border fencing and adding a lot more border agents won't "solve" the problem BUT it will stop it from getting worse! When your boat is sinking, the first thing you do is plug the hole, not think about what to do with the water!
We have over 30,000 illegal immigrants "successfully" entering this country every G-Damn month! Plug the Friggin' Hole!

Your statement "most who enter illegally first try to enter legally but cannot because they would likely die before being allowed to enter." is a LIE! Most illegal immigrants entered illegally because it was "Quicker" and they knew that they wouldn't be allowed to immigrate. We make the decisions as to who enters and who doesn't, NOT THE IMMIGRANT! The others entered Legally on Visa's and then decided to tell Americans to "Go to Hell, I'm staying no matter what" by overstaying their Visa's and disappearing into the crowd.

Obviously we need to go after the employers of illegal labor, these laws are already on the books. We just need an administration with the balls to actually enforce the law. That's why new legislation IS NOT NEEDED! Simply enforce the current laws and secure our borders more effectively BY 1. adding more agents, 2. building border fences/walls to create entry choke points which will maximize the effectiveness of our available agents. Something new that is needed however if for the supreme court to rule that the 14th amendment does not apply to children of people who are illegally living in this country, doing this will remove another incentive to break our laws. I remember a few years back there was a planeload of pregnant korean women who flew here to give birth on our soil, This is an insult to every law abiding American and you should be PISSED!

Business lobbys are a political force, but the final power rests with the votes of the people. Be aware that this is not a Democrat/Republican issue,
Politicians of every party will be targeted for office removal, it's whether or not they listen to the will of the people.

I am not alone and i have enough people that agree with me to remove the Non-Representing representatives from office and if they value their jobs they better open their ears.

[Neutrino]

Oh give me a break. America has helped millions all over the world. We were giving North Korea food for their starving people and guess what? They are still starving. Why? Because the dictator running the country didn't give them the food! WE CAN NOT SAVE THE WORLD!

Obviously giving food to North Korea is a doomed enterprise, because the US has basicaly no influence with them (other than "Do what we say or we'll nuke you") and the US cannot make sure that the resources are getting to people who need it. Mexico is much more open than NK, so the US can actually give food and money to the people who need it, rather than just handing it over to border guards and then never seeing it again.

We are not required by the fact we are successful to make other nations prosper.

Oh, so as long as you are rich and successful, you don't care what happens to the rest of humanity.
That's real "Help thy neighbour" stuff.

Countries and leaders of countries need to step up to the plate and provide for themselves! We can only do so much. Today its millions of Mexicans we save by allowing them into the country illegally and tomorrow it will be millions of Venezuelans? The next day Canadians? When does it stop? When will it be OK to look out for America first, before other nations? With your mindset America is doomed. And you don't even see it.

But how can they help themselves? People are immigrating to the US because it is rumored to be a better place than where they came from. How can you blame them for doing this? If you were stuck in a hell-hole, with what you have been told is a much better place only a few feet away and only a fence in the way, what would you do?

Those already in control aren't going to do anything about it; they are at the top of the heap and aren't going to do anything to upset that.

Most of the unhappy population leave, with only a few staying. Of those who stay, most are poorly educated and have no idea whatsoever to do to fix their country. Some try violent rebellion. This fails miserably; they end up dead and the living conditions for their fellows ends up worse.

If you want to fix the problem perminantly (rather than a stop-a-gap measure that ksslemp is advocating) then you have to help them so they can help themselves.

[Nobunaga]

... Let us not forget the enormous voting block these illegals will constitute. Then take a look at which politicians are pushing in which direction on the issue.

... Dammit! That was a solid argument, until GW started pushing this damned thing!

... oh well, I'll try again later.

[Jenos Ridan]

Four-five generations ago on my paternal grandmothers side of the family, were immgrants from Europe. They came to the US and learned how to speak the language, which even back then was English. Same was the case for italians, greeks, lebonese, whathaveyou. And not all of them were granted entry; quotas, quarantine, etc. I think this modren immigrants have it pretty good and in all honesty they shouldn't be sneaking into our country and all but demanding to be American citizens-in-name-only. NO, you'll learn to speak english, obey the laws of the land (meaning you'll first go through INS) and you'll refer to yourself as an American when you pass the test. That is how my ancestors did it, andI expect the same upstanding behavior out of any immagrant regardless of origin.

[jay_a2j]

... Let us not forget the enormous voting block these illegals will constitute. Then take a look at which politicians are pushing in which direction on the issue.

... Dammit! That was a solid argument, until GW started pushing this damned thing!

... oh well, I'll try again later.

Both parties want them here. Democrats for the voting block you mentioned and Republicans because businesses hire them for cheap labor. This issue is not one side vs. the other. The people overwhelmingly want something done about it, its getting our elected officials to listen to us that will get it done.

[Nobunaga]

... Well, Jay, I understand that most folks want something done, and soon, but I have very little faith in our government these days. I actually wrote my congressman on the subject (I don't often do that).

...

[ritz627]

Yes i've read your threads and i understand the problem clearly!
Obviously just building more border fencing and adding a lot more border agents won't "solve" the problem BUT it will stop it from getting worse! When your boat is sinking, the first thing you do is plug the hole, not think about what to do with the water!
We have over 30,000 illegal immigrants "successfully" entering this country every G-Damn month! Plug the Friggin' Hole!

Your statement "most who enter illegally first try to enter legally but cannot because they would likely die before being allowed to enter." is a LIE! Most illegal immigrants entered illegally because it was "Quicker" and they knew that they wouldn't be allowed to immigrate. We make the decisions as to who enters and who doesn't, NOT THE IMMIGRANT! The others entered Legally on Visa's and then decided to tell Americans to "Go to Hell, I'm staying no matter what" by overstaying their Visa's and disappearing into the crowd.

Obviously we need to go after the employers of illegal labor, these laws are already on the books. We just need an administration with the balls to actually enforce the law. That's why new legislation IS NOT NEEDED! Simply enforce the current laws and secure our borders more effectively BY 1. adding more agents, 2. building border fences/walls to create entry choke points which will maximize the effectiveness of our available agents. Something new that is needed however if for the supreme court to rule that the 14th amendment does not apply to children of people who are illegally living in this country, doing this will remove another incentive to break our laws. I remember a few years back there was a planeload of pregnant korean women who flew here to give birth on our soil, This is an insult to every law abiding American and you should be PISSED!

Business lobbys are a political force, but the final power rests with the votes of the people. Be aware that this is not a Democrat/Republican issue,
Politicians of every party will be targeted for office removal, it's whether or not they listen to the will of the people.

I am not alone and i have enough people that agree with me to remove the Non-Representing representatives from office and if they value their jobs they better open their ears.

There are much more effective, and frankly, cost effective ways to stop the flow of illegal immigrants. Building another wall, or adding to the wall would be incredibly expensive, and hiring more officers would mean that these people would need to get paid on a regular basis. Patroling the wall, etc. would have to go on for what is essentially eternity. Why not solve the problem permanetly? Offering Mexico and other countries aid would be one initial big spending, but would be better for the long run. Fining or punishing companies who offered jobs to illegal imigrants would be another way, and would also be one way to give more money to the government, rather than take it away. Unfortunately, it would be political suicide to propose it. I find that building a bigger wall is just not a practical nor cost effective proposal.

As for your argument that representatives will lose thier jobs if they don't agree with you. In the 2006 midterm elections, border states and states affected by illegal immigration such as Texas, Arizona, Florida and California gained democratic seats, and democrats would certainly not agree with you. Even in your home state of Kentucky, democrats gained seats. I don't feel it is viable argument, or at least not yet, to say that representatives will lose thier jobs solely over immigration stances.

[Stopper]

Oh, I see.

I would have thought Stopper would be against the U.S. going around the world making other countries into "infernal hell-holes".

I am, yes.

[Jenos Ridan]

Oh, I see.

I would have thought Stopper would be against the U.S. going around the world making other countries into "infernal hell-holes".

I am, yes.

How is to say that half of the time, said places aren't already 'hell-holes'?

[Stopper]

Oh, I see.

I would have thought Stopper would be against the U.S. going around the world making other countries into "infernal hell-holes".

I am, yes.

How is to say that half of the time, said places aren't already 'hell-holes'?

I believe ksslemp was referring to Iraq. We have differed over this a little bit in the past.

[heavycola]

in all honesty they shouldn't be sneaking into our country and all but demanding to be American citizens-in-name-only. NO, you'll learn to speak english, obey the laws of the land (meaning you'll first go through INS) and you'll refer to yourself as an American when you pass the test. That is how my ancestors did it, andI expect the same upstanding behavior out of any immagrant regardless of origin.

This is a tired point I am about to make, but the european settlers didn't exactly pass any native american citizenship tests.

Re: language - here is an interesting page, it's really worth a read. Apparently English only became the US' official language in 1981; and 311 languages are spoken in the US, of which 162 are indigenous and 149 - of which english is one - arrived with immigrants.
Mutliculturalism is a wonderful thing but the carrot works better than the stick IMHO. You can't force someone to integrate, and how would you measure that anyway? There is a lot of good work going on at the community level however (i'm talking about the UK here) that does communities together.

[ksslemp]

Oh, I see.

I would have thought Stopper would be against the U.S. going around the world making other countries into "infernal hell-holes".

I am, yes.

How is to say that half of the time, said places aren't already 'hell-holes'?

I believe ksslemp was referring to Iraq. We have differed over this a little bit in the past.

ATTENTION: Apparently Stopper thinks it's funny to "Change" what i wrote and pass it off as a quote from me! Typical!

The truth is i wrote this: "I would have thought Stopper would be against the U.S. going around the world making other countries "a better place"".

[cawck mongler]

Politicians just use it so they don't have to deal with real issues and for publicity. It actually isn't a big deal because;
a) the amount that is sent back to Mexico every year doesn't put a dent in the US's 13 trillion annual income
b) I don't know about you, but I don't think alot of immigrants tie down the social institutions or leech off other government services
c) they work hard for their money and in most cases harder then your average US citizen
d) if you want to get into the issue with money being sent out of the country, why don't you look at Jews, 50 million is estimated to have been donated to Israel in the last 10 years by Jewish families, it's the same principle, people sending money back to their home country and hurting the US economy
e) it is the companies fault for hiring them so don't start focusing on the companies instead of the individuals

[Anarchist]

Politicians just use it so they don't have to deal with real issues and for publicity. It actually isn't a big deal because;
a) the amount that is sent back to Mexico every year doesn't put a dent in the US's 13 trillion annual income
b) I don't know about you, but I don't think alot of immigrants tie down the social institutions or leech off other government services
c) they work hard for their money and in most cases harder then your average US citizen
d) if you want to get into the issue with money being sent out of the country, why don't you look at Jews, 50 million is estimated to have been donated to Israel in the last 10 years by Jewish families, it's the same principle, people sending money back to their home country and hurting the US economy
e) it is the companies fault for hiring them so don't start focusing on the companies instead of the individuals

f) outsourcing costs far more high paying employment oppertunities then illegal immigrants
g) Currently company executives and CEO's are making 150 times the amount of your average worker

[Jenos Ridan]

in all honesty they shouldn't be sneaking into our country and all but demanding to be American citizens-in-name-only. NO, you'll learn to speak english, obey the laws of the land (meaning you'll first go through INS) and you'll refer to yourself as an American when you pass the test. That is how my ancestors did it, andI expect the same upstanding behavior out of any immagrant regardless of origin.

This is a tired point I am about to make, but the european settlers didn't exactly pass any native american citizenship tests.

Re: language - here is an interesting page, it's really worth a read. Apparently English only became the US' official language in 1981; and 311 languages are spoken in the US, of which 162 are indigenous and 149 - of which english is one - arrived with immigrants.
Mutliculturalism is a wonderful thing but the carrot works better than the stick IMHO. You can't force someone to integrate, and how would you measure that anyway? There is a lot of good work going on at the community level however (i'm talking about the UK here) that does communities together.

To your first point: the natives didn't have any regulations for us to pass.

And forcing them to integrate, again, the immigrants in the 1920's came here and learned to adapt just fine, mainly because they had to. The same is true today. Sure, some habits and traditons remained from 'the old country' but then they still learned the language and obeyed the laws. What is so hard about that? Come to a nation, go though INS and apply for citizenship. Honestly, it can't be that difficult and I don't feel that they're not capable.

Some points to consider:

Traffic signs; printed in ENGLISH
Ballots, again, in ENGLISH
The vast majority of news media, printed and televised, in ENGLISH
The vast majority of Americans, first language is ENGLISH

So, how is not learning the language going to help you live here?

[Nobunaga]

.... and... the BILL GOES DOWN ....

....

[jay_a2j]

.... and... the BILL GOES DOWN ....

....

SWEET!

[spurgistan]

Yes, another problem left unsolved.

GO USA!!

[Nobunaga]

Yes, another problem left unsolved.

GO USA!!

... Your sarcasm is appreciated, and appropriate I think. Yet the bill in the Senate ... (and I won't claim to be an expert on its finer details) was opposed by near on 80% of Americans (polls from CNN, USA Today, etc..), so the Senate did its job in that respect.

... I guess the bill become law would not really have solved much.

... I'm glad.

[ksslemp]

The sad thing is that 46 Senators still voted for it, effectively telling the American people: We don't care what you want, we'll vote any way we please.

I'll be contributing to the campaigns of their opponents when they come up for re-election.

Now it's time for the House of Reps to reintroduce the "enforcement only" bill.

[spurgistan]

Yes, another problem left unsolved.

GO USA!!

... Your sarcasm is appreciated, and appropriate I think. Yet the bill in the Senate ... (and I won't claim to be an expert on its finer details) was opposed by near on 80% of Americans (polls from CNN, USA Today, etc..), so the Senate did its job in that respect.

... I guess the bill become law would not really have solved much.

... I'm glad.

In my opinion, this bill was about as fair a compromise as we're going to see, but it had just enough that Republicans and Democrats just couldn't vote for that it was essentially doomed from the start. In all, this problem isn't going to go away, but it's going to take a lot of intestinal fortitude in Washington, maybe take some elected officials - gasp - risking defeat in the upcoming election to get anything done.

So basically, we're royally f**ked.

[ksslemp]

Yes, another problem left unsolved.

GO USA!!

... Your sarcasm is appreciated, and appropriate I think. Yet the bill in the Senate ... (and I won't claim to be an expert on its finer details) was opposed by near on 80% of Americans (polls from CNN, USA Today, etc..), so the Senate did its job in that respect.

... I guess the bill become law would not really have solved much.

... I'm glad.

In my opinion, this bill was about as fair a compromise as we're going to see, but it had just enough that Republicans and Democrats just couldn't vote for that it was essentially doomed from the start. In all, this problem isn't going to go away, but it's going to take a lot of intestinal fortitude in Washington, maybe take some elected officials - gasp - risking defeat in the upcoming election to get anything done.

So basically, we're royally f**ked.

by intestinal fortitude i suppose you mean going against the wishes of most Americans?

Enforce the current laws on the books and things will get done.