EW's Semi-Open Matrix Madness

[Ragian]

I'm back and almost sober again. This is getting hard with age

I'm trying to understand the vote on Charle. Wasn't he confirmed town half a page ago? I may have missed something, so I'm going to give it another read.

@Charle, why Max? Why not Pixar, Fusi, Devante, or one of the other players lying low?

[Ragian]

I've reread D3, and I don't get the cote on Charle (which is annoying given that I felt he was unfairly on my case earlier). As PMC has pointed out, Charle's deductions seem logical. Actually, it elevates him into my "lean town" category. He, at least, seems to want to solve this puzzle.

That said, @Charle, why go after Max?

And @king, what reasons do you have for believing the one you've gifted is town? Would you want the recipient outed at this point?

[Extreme Ways]

Votcount: 1

Votecount:
Charle: 1 - Votanic
Max: 1 - Charle
Pixar: 1 - Max

I'm letting today run a little longer because it's an important day with mech info but progress has been slow... Admittedly I do not keep track of who is posting or afk as well as some of you do, but the whole day feels slow.

In the event that Town has an Inventor who gives away inventions, this inventor does NOT know whether the invention has been received. If the recipient gets roleblocked, the recipient receives their invention. If the inventor is roleblocked, the recipient does not receive their ivnention.

[Charle]

Votcount: 1

Votecount:
Charle: 1 - Votanic
Max: 1 - Charle
Pixar: 1 - Max

I'm letting today run a little longer because it's an important day with mech info but progress has been slow... Admittedly I do not keep track of who is posting or afk as well as some of you do, but the whole day feels slow.

In the event that Town has an Inventor who gives away inventions, this inventor does NOT know whether the invention has been received. If the recipient gets roleblocked, the recipient receives their invention. If the inventor is roleblocked, the recipient does not receive their ivnention.

Thanks for this EW, just one question: If the inventor is roleblocked and the recipent did not get the invention, is the invent lost or is it back the inventor? Probably a stupid question as the inventor is roleblocked to give it over, so if he was blocked he couldn't and it is still with him? Just wanted to confirm.

[Charle]

That said, @Charle, why go after Max?

Hi Ragian,

I must say I was disappointed in the fact that King was visited and not scum. I really thought we had something here and we are all back to square one. The only thing that we learned so far is that we have matrix B with Vot and King confirmed tracker and inventor and a doc who can decide who he wants to save.

So I was just following pmc's investigations, but I am very happy to switch to anybody should we come up with something more definite, maybe devante? This day is dragged out too much, with only a few people contributing making it very difficult to work out the puzzle.

[pmchugh]

I agree, hard game with only a few playing. I think vot should lead next lynch, at least if he is wrong we know he is town and we don't have reprisals.

[Charle]

I agree, hard game with only a few playing. I think vot should lead next lynch, at least if he is wrong we know he is town and we don't have reprisals.

Good idea, the only problem is he vote me, and we will just lynch another townie

[Votanic]

Unless scum visited scum in order to throw town off course by town-confirming fellow scum. Hold your horses there, Charle...

So why would town block themself or waste one of 2 shot watchers on that if they are not even sure someone will track them? Do you really think that would be possible?

Anyway, I think Vot could have visited scum, and that can be confirmed by King or our Town Inventer. (Obviously if King can just confirm that I read his original post correctly - that he is either the doctor or inventor because he immediately knew we are on scenario 2 after Vot's Claim).

Yeah I'm one of those 2 roles

Okay then, and since last night was an even-night I don't think you could be the Doctor... so does this mean you are the Inventor and you gave one of your two inventions to another player last night?
And if so, how would you even know that the other player was Town? ...or did you just take a guess?

Then vot gave the game away here.

Charles deductions seem perfectly logical to me and not requiring inside knowledge.

So lame of you, PMC. Did you forget our mediocre mod gave us a 'semi-open matrix'?? (ooh...BFD)
Everything I said could be figured out from that. You keep trying to lead people in such stupid (OR SCUMMY) directions.

@Rags, where was Charle cleared??? Don't say things like that without giving your reasoning.

@KingM, yeah I actually know who you gave an invention to (another BFD). ...but why him, though?

Such chronic malaise... this game is terribly balanced.
And all the players not bothering to show up are shouting that out much louder than me.

[*Pixar*]

Really hard to read anything in this game with so many vanilla townies, was never a fan of vanilla games. And as far as I can tell we have no info even with two of our PR's coming out. I am going to follow Votanic's lead today.

[*Pixar*]

Vote Charle

[fusibaseball]

There was a lot of energy when this game started and people were ready to participate. I think for a lot of people though it has been hard to maintain any sense of urgency in this game in the absence of deadlines.

[Charle]

Oh well, if you guys want to believe Vot's bullshit then go ahead and vote me, another townie! Scum is laughing so much, they will probably keep Vot because he does the job for them.

I was the only one trying to figure out this puzzle up to now and was really just posting the way I saw things unfold.

You will need to play better from tomorrow, scum loves the way the cookie crumbles at the moment.

I must say, Pixar who quickly jumped on Vot's wagon to get rid of me is a bit suspicious, you guys should check him out.

[Extreme Ways]

Votcount: 1

Votecount:
Charle: 1 - Votanic
Max: 1 - Charle
Pixar: 1 - Max

I'm letting today run a little longer because it's an important day with mech info but progress has been slow... Admittedly I do not keep track of who is posting or afk as well as some of you do, but the whole day feels slow.

In the event that Town has an Inventor who gives away inventions, this inventor does NOT know whether the invention has been received. If the recipient gets roleblocked, the recipient receives their invention. If the inventor is roleblocked, the recipient does not receive their ivnention.

Thanks for this EW, just one question: If the inventor is roleblocked and the recipent did not get the invention, is the invent lost or is it back the inventor? Probably a stupid question as the inventor is roleblocked to give it over, so if he was blocked he couldn't and it is still with him? Just wanted to confirm.

Lost to time.

[Extreme Ways]

Unless scum visited scum in order to throw town off course by town-confirming fellow scum. Hold your horses there, Charle...

So why would town block themself or waste one of 2 shot watchers on that if they are not even sure someone will track them? Do you really think that would be possible?

Anyway, I think Vot could have visited scum, and that can be confirmed by King or our Town Inventer. (Obviously if King can just confirm that I read his original post correctly - that he is either the doctor or inventor because he immediately knew we are on scenario 2 after Vot's Claim).

Yeah I'm one of those 2 roles

Okay then, and since last night was an even-night I don't think you could be the Doctor... so does this mean you are the Inventor and you gave one of your two inventions to another player last night?
And if so, how would you even know that the other player was Town? ...or did you just take a guess?

Then vot gave the game away here.

Charles deductions seem perfectly logical to me and not requiring inside knowledge.

So lame of you, PMC. Did you forget our mediocre mod gave us a 'semi-open matrix'?? (ooh...BFD)
Everything I said could be figured out from that. You keep trying to lead people in such stupid (OR SCUMMY) directions.

@Rags, where was Charle cleared??? Don't say things like that without giving your reasoning.

@KingM, yeah I actually know who you gave an invention to (another BFD). ...but why him, though?

Such chronic malaise... this game is terribly balanced.
And all the players not bothering to show up are shouting that out much louder than me.

If you want, Sonic is aching to sub in. I'm not keeping you here. If you dont want to play, you dont have to play. I didnt create this, I did playtest this (and it was adjusted in kind). I've played a game on this and it's perfectly fine. If you want to create your own setup feel free, I'm going to call it shit and unbalanced in advance.

[pmchugh]

Unless scum visited scum in order to throw town off course by town-confirming fellow scum. Hold your horses there, Charle...

So why would town block themself or waste one of 2 shot watchers on that if they are not even sure someone will track them? Do you really think that would be possible?

Anyway, I think Vot could have visited scum, and that can be confirmed by King or our Town Inventer. (Obviously if King can just confirm that I read his original post correctly - that he is either the doctor or inventor because he immediately knew we are on scenario 2 after Vot's Claim).

Yeah I'm one of those 2 roles

Okay then, and since last night was an even-night I don't think you could be the Doctor... so does this mean you are the Inventor and you gave one of your two inventions to another player last night?
And if so, how would you even know that the other player was Town? ...or did you just take a guess?

Then vot gave the game away here.

Charles deductions seem perfectly logical to me and not requiring inside knowledge.

So lame of you, PMC. Did you forget our mediocre mod gave us a 'semi-open matrix'?? (ooh...BFD)
Everything I said could be figured out from that. You keep trying to lead people in such stupid (OR SCUMMY) directions.

I am really struggling to understand you. You are claiming that charle knowing you visited king is somehow suspicious but;

1. King basically claimed either inventor or doctor
2. You dismissed the possibility of him being doctor on the basic that last night was an even night
3. In order for you to do so you must have known that King visited someone last night

Charle therefore had a perfect path to understanding this logically, and I can see nothing suspicious about it, unless you want to claimed charle understood it quicker than someone would reasonably be able to, even given the logical steps laid out above.

[Ragian]

@Rags, where was Charle cleared??? Don't say things like that without giving your reasoning.

I think you're confusing questions with statements.

---

@Pixar, why are you refraining from thinking yourself and just voting for Charle? What reasons do you have for thinking that Charle is scum other than, "Well, I'll just follow someone, and then it's their fault."

@PMC, to a similar extent...surely it's contradictory to follow someone with whom you said you have difficulties agreeing on anything.

@EW, for all I care, sub in Son!c for any of the non-contributors.

[Votanic]

If you want, Sonic is aching to sub in. I'm not keeping you here. If you dont want to play, you dont have to play. I didnt create this, I did playtest this (and it was adjusted in kind). I've played a game on this and it's perfectly fine. If you want to create your own setup feel free, I'm going to call it shit and unbalanced in advance.

Oh, is he? Indeed. Suggesting Sonic as a worthy replacement for anything[/i ] will not improve your own Mafia reputation.

Until quite recently, Sonic was claiming himself ready to depart CC and never return, ...that is until he realized that nobody was particularly heartborken at the thought. So now instead ,he's going to stay indefinitely and return to the next Mafia game, [i]...which basically sounds just like the threat that it is.

Frankly, I'm putting in the most effort to play Town in this game of anyone, as well as giving quite valid criticism about it as well, regardless of somebody's fragile ego...
In a game where there are very few opportunities for a Townie to prove himself, while still alive, and where scum's ability to spin lies is exceptionally vast and thorough, I am doing the most Towny thing possible by consistently sweating the details and calling people on contradictions and lax play. There is no benefit for Scum to do this, since it 1) unncessarily exhausting when they already have such an advantage, and 2) posting is only liable to trip them up.

Let's be clear:
Townies not showing up to post is bad play, but what can be done about their apathy?
Scum not showing up might be good play, since even scum might be bored by this set-up and would rather just win the easiest way.
If it was only scum not participating we could use that against them, but too many players are phoning it in for that to be possible.

1. Strike Wolf - Comes by moderately often and gives fairly townish responses. So nothing particulary Scummy, but hardly proven Town.
2. Devante - Busy, came by when pressed. his reasons for minimal play are already listed in the previous paragraph.
3. pmchugh - Said several things that seemed misleading, given his reputation I might think they are intentional, ...and thus scummy.
4. Votanic - gazes stoicly into the black mirror of human behavior.
8. Kingm - I guess I'll give KingM the benefit of the doubt that he is the town inventor, though Scum's knowledge of the matrix might allow them to make smething like that up, ...but frankly, that would be more work and risk that Scum need to do at this point.
9. kongming3 - He said a few odd, cryptic things that could have been towm-claims, or scummy fake toen claims. haven't seen him much recently either.
10. *Pixar* - Just came in for a vote on Charle, after my lead... but I'm not particularly flattered to be blindly followed, since it could be a Scum-ploy. Pixar always seems to give minimal play so this game he won't likely be called out on it, at least not until the end...
11. Maxleod - He worked to have DDS lynched, quite possibly for reasons of personal revenge, but he could do that as Scum (good play...) or as a Townie who didn't give a damn (bad play)... Now he hardly bothers to show up.
12. Ragian Actually, he may be Town, he's put in effort that Scum might not feel necessary. Still he says weird things, hta tdon't always jibe, but a Towny with partial knowlege might do that.
13. Charle - Yes I'm currewntly voting for him because he jumped to odd conclusions about my PR intel, ...but I am not convinced that he is Scum.. I could probably make a similar argument about PMC...
14. fusibaseball - haven't heard much form him in awhile, as I recall he said things that rang Towny, ...but who knows. Basically a similar situation to strikewolf, except fusi posts less often.

It's so easy to be scum and so hard to prove you're not...

I'm going to unvote Charle... Unvote. He said some odd things tha tdidsn't make sense, but so has almost everybody else, ...that is if they even bother to say anything.

[SoN!c]

If you want, Sonic is aching to sub in. I'm not keeping you here. If you dont want to play, you dont have to play. I didnt create this, I did playtest this (and it was adjusted in kind). I've played a game on this and it's perfectly fine. If you want to create your own setup feel free, I'm going to call it shit and unbalanced in advance.

Oh, is he? Indeed. Suggesting Sonic as a worthy replacement for anything[/i ] will not improve your own Mafia reputation.

Until quite recently, Sonic was claiming himself ready to depart CC and never return, ...that is until he realized that nobody was particularly heartborken at the thought. So now instead ,he's going to stay indefinitely and return to the next Mafia game, [i]...which basically sounds just like the threat that it is.

Frankly, I'm putting in the most effort to play Town in this game of anyone, as well as giving quite valid criticism about it as well, regardless of somebody's fragile ego...
In a game where there are very few opportunities for a Townie to prove himself, while still alive, and where scum's ability to spin lies is exceptionally vast and thorough, I am doing the most Towny thing possible by consistently sweating the details and calling people on contradictions and lax play. There is no benefit for Scum to do this, since it 1) unncessarily exhausting when they already have such an advantage, and 2) posting is only liable to trip them up.

Let's be clear:
Townies not showing up to post is bad play, but what can be done about their apathy?
Scum not showing up might be good play, since even scum might be bored by this set-up and would rather just win the easiest way.
If it was only scum not participating we could use that against them, but too many players are phoning it in for that to be possible.

1. Strike Wolf - Comes by moderately often and gives fairly townish responses. So nothing particulary Scummy, but hardly proven Town.
2. Devante - Busy, came by when pressed. his reasons for minimal play are already listed in the previous paragraph.
3. pmchugh - Said several things that seemed misleading, given his reputation I might think they are intentional, ...and thus scummy.
4. Votanic - gazes stoicly into the black mirror of human behavior.
8. Kingm - I guess I'll give KingM the benefit of the doubt that he is the town inventor, though Scum's knowledge of the matrix might allow them to make smething like that up, ...but frankly, that would be more work and risk that Scum need to do at this point.
9. kongming3 - He said a few odd, cryptic things that could have been towm-claims, or scummy fake toen claims. haven't seen him much recently either.
10. *Pixar* - Just came in for a vote on Charle, after my lead... but I'm not particularly flattered to be blindly followed, since it could be a Scum-ploy. Pixar always seems to give minimal play so this game he won't likely be called out on it, at least not until the end...
11. Maxleod - He worked to have DDS lynched, quite possibly for reasons of personal revenge, but he could do that as Scum (good play...) or as a Townie who didn't give a damn (bad play)... Now he hardly bothers to show up.
12. Ragian Actually, he may be Town, he's put in effort that Scum might not feel necessary. Still he says weird things, hta tdon't always jibe, but a Towny with partial knowlege might do that.
13. Charle - Yes I'm currewntly voting for him because he jumped to odd conclusions about my PR intel, ...but I am not convinced that he is Scum.. I could probably make a similar argument about PMC...
14. fusibaseball - haven't heard much form him in awhile, as I recall he said things that rang Towny, ...but who knows. Basically a similar situation to strikewolf, except fusi posts less often.

It's so easy to be scum and so hard to prove you're not...

I'm going to unvote Charle... Unvote. He said some odd things tha tdidsn't make sense, but so has almost everybody else, ...that is if they even bother to say anything.

Out of clan world untill (when) subscription runs out Votàn..(not paying premium myself anymore) - i already answered you that in the 1vs1 game we had recently so you already know thats its december. And mafia is not premium based is it? Now after i posted you smell like Daryl (witches of Eastwick) you seem to have forgotten that and cant wait to see me gone´ ill post the game number if you want?

Yes cant wait to sub and bring some life to this madness party (and advocate against the Votán)

*if you look up "votanic" in the english dictionary it says no result. But online you find some "votanic royal garden in bangladesh" that is quite popular. Turns out they cant spell english and they ment "botanic".. So we can call you "Bot" from now??

[SoN!c]

Game 23272524

so for the curious:

Key message is "2024-06-16 09:07:47 - SoN!c: yes on global chat i am, subscription runs out in december"

and then i even proposed to help him (bot) as his botanic gameplay (bot's map and settings) was so crushfull defeat - "gg" in round 3 to 4

2024-06-16 12:54:15 - admin: snapshot, round 3, after Votanic
2024-06-16 13:17:51 - admin: snapshot, round 4, after SoN!c
2024-06-16 13:18:15 - SoN!c: gg vot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBDrI9h6Bqo&list=RDEdvyBtZhVKM&index=4

[Devante]

Catching up on things. Not much here to go on. I'm fine with voting on someone who hasn't contributed much. I don't read Charle as scum so would refrain from voting there unless something shows later. I do find I'm struggling in this game with not much to go by other then having at least a confirmed town it seems with Vot and not much else to go by.

I will ask SONIC to refrain from posting here unless Mod brings you into the game. It's hard enough to have the time to go through things and a bunch of irrelevant posts don't help that.

[Devante]

Tried to start playing this game a bit different for a specific reason which I thought would benefit town but seems all I've done is bring unnecessary heat on myself lol, so either this will end up being great for town or I'll end up going down into the Sonic pool of bad townie. Either way I'll post my reads so far on everyone now that I've had time to catch up on posts but it's only D1 so I'm sure this will change

Leaning Town
Devante - because I am
pmchugh
Ragian
Charle
fusibaseball

Neutral
Strike Wolf
Votanic
DirtyDishSoap
Loose Cannon - was leaning scum but mainly because of his earlier posts, not so sure now
Maxleod
Trafalgarlaw01 - Would lean scum but not posting much D1 seems to fall in his MO

Leaning Scum
Swang918 - not contributing which is not usual
Kingm - Just a gut sense from his posts compared to the last game he played
kongming3 - similar to king here
*Pixar* - lean scum, but I just always assume he is

Can you elaborate on this from day 1 dev?

I'm assuming you are referencing my comment at the start about playing different. At this point that PR's are being brought out doesn't matter I guess. At the start of the game I don't have much to contribute so I thought if I could bring scum attention on myself as a possible town PR that would at least protect any actual PRs for another day or two hoping they would target me instead of a possible PR. But that backfired and didn't work lol, so not smart play to do again moving forward I think or at least be smarter about it

[SoN!c]

Catching up on things. Not much here to go on. I'm fine with voting on someone who hasn't contributed much. I don't read Charle as scum so would refrain from voting there unless something shows later. I do find I'm struggling in this game with not much to go by other then having at least a confirmed town it seems with Vot and not much else to go by.

I will ask SONIC to refrain from posting here unless Mod brings you into the game. It's hard enough to have the time to go through things and a bunch of irrelevant posts don't help that.

I will comply - im just responding to Botanic's wrong info / insults - no more post from me here untill wanted thats a promise (please Bot, keep the small insults and deliberate wrong info at large) (this is EW madness?? or are you scared???)


No rest for the wicked!! BOLA

[strike wolf]

Okay. So a bit more thorough read of the last couple of pages. At this point, King and Vot are all but confirmed town. King could be lying but it would be a risky lie at this point in the game and I doubt mafia would agree with any plan where King would fake claim with little to no pressure at this point nor do I feel Inventor is the claim they would make since it is a little easier to disprove than most of the claims in the matrix.

I think King claiming now works out for us too as it should limit the number of fake claims mafia can make going forward and with both of his inventions being used, he runs minimal risk revealing his role. We also now know that Mafia has either a tracker or a Watcher.

Moving on to actual reads, I don't think anythings changed much for me since my earlier list. King obviously moves from townish to town. I didn't particularly like Charle's "if you lynch me then you'll lynch town again" argument as while it is accurate if he is town, those argument lines have always struck me as lazy defenses for those that don't have a better argument against their cases. Nor do I particularly like Pix skating and then defaulting to voting Charle because that's who Vot is voting.

Ultimately, I think I'd still rather lynch Kong. He's been noticeably quieter in this game than last where he was town and there's also been a few moments that have struck me as scummy that I do not recall similar moments from the last game. Notably his attempt at flattering Vot D1 and his "oh well. Que sera sera" attitude presented early today stand out. I may try to do a full reread on him later and see what I dig up.

[pmchugh]

Strike talks sense. Unvote vote kong

Not sure why vot ignored my post but also unvoted, I take that as understanding me to be correct. Charle is not clear, he was suspicious before for me, but the logic that brought those votes was flawed.

[Ragian]

That's how he rolls, mate.

I find it odd that Strike mentions Kong but doesn't vote.