Israel

[saxitoxin]

American taxpayers Cenk Uygur and Jackson Hinkle pay for Israeli bombs and Israel turns around and threatens those same Americans by putting their names on the very bombs Jackson and Cenk bought. IDF gratitude.

[bigtoughralf]

All the casualties on both sides are ultimately caused by Hamas. This was a completely unprovoked war started by them, for strategic reasons purely their own, and every person killed, wounded, or left homeless can thank Hamas for it.

And yet you don't similarly believe that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is Ukraine and the West's fault for provoking Russia.

Actually, I have strongly criticized the reckless NATO expansion which partly set the stage for the war in Ukraine. The most recent example was a discussion with Votanic in this forum, probably not more than two weeks ago. You can't have forgotten already.

There's only so many posts written by people like Votanic than I can willingly subject myself to, so I tend to limit myself to ones aimed at me. In any case:

while NATO's expansionism did help set up the dominoes there, they didn't ultimately pull the trigger.

Just like Hamas isn't pulling the trigger on any of the bombs or bullets the IDF has used to kill 20,000 Gazan civilians and counting. The IDF is pulling those triggers.

You obviously think Putin's response to Ukrainian/NATO provocations is unacceptable. Do you think the IDF's ongoing response to Hamas provocations is acceptable?

How about the Chinese government's ongoing campaign in Xinjiang? Just like the IDF's attack on Gaza, Beijing's repression in Xinjiang was launched in response to a series of terror attacks based out of Xinjiang.

[bigtoughralf]

An estimated 45% of all housing units in Gaza have now been destroyed, rendered uninhabitable or otherwise damaged by the IDF's careful targeting of military sites over the last two months of bombing:



Either every single house, bakery, school and bus stop in Gaza is a black ops site sheltering Hamas operatives and weapons caches, or the ongoing bombing campaign that has killed over 20,000+ civilians is not the targeted military operation that Israeli propaganda claims it is.

[HitRed]

Hamas is trading housing for time. Lots of housing.

History might say Hamas was militarily all sizzle (offensive) and little steak (defense).

[2dimes]

Stake, pointy piece of wood. Good for holding down a tent or maybe to kill Dracula.

Steak, delicious piece of beef I like to order at The Sizzler.

[ConfederateSS]

Stake, pointy piece of wood. Good for holding down a tent or maybe to kill Dracula.

Steak, delicious piece of beef I like to order at The Sizzler.

-------Or what Hamas gambled...Their grub stake...Like when prospectors needed a few bucks to back their search for gold...
------- Unfortunately Hamas wasn't fighting Biden's Woke Military...But Israel...Looks like...Hamas' stake , turned into FOOL'S GOLD... ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[Pack Rat]

Stake, pointy piece of wood. Good for holding down a tent or maybe to kill Dracula.

Steak, delicious piece of beef I like to order at The Sizzler.

-------Or what Hamas gambled...Their grub stake...Like when prospectors needed a few bucks to back their search for gold...
------- Unfortunately Hamas wasn't fighting Biden's Woke Military...But Israel...Looks like...Hamas' stake , turned into FOOL'S GOLD... ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

We need a translator to decipher a Michigan State redneck with fascist leanings.

[Dukasaur]

while NATO's expansionism did help set up the dominoes there, they didn't ultimately pull the trigger.

Just like Hamas isn't pulling the trigger on any of the bombs or bullets the IDF has used to kill 20,000 Gazan civilians and counting. The IDF is pulling those triggers.

You obviously think Putin's response to Ukrainian/NATO provocations is unacceptable. Do you think the IDF's ongoing response to Hamas provocations is acceptable?

How about the Chinese government's ongoing campaign in Xinjiang? Just like the IDF's attack on Gaza, Beijing's repression in Xinjiang was launched in response to a series of terror attacks based out of Xinjiang.

Huge differences between those three examples.

Ukraine is not an existential threat to Russia. It was primarily an impediment to Putin's hubris and dream of rebuilding Soviet might. Yes, Nato's ill-advised expansion helped fuel Russian paranoia and didn't help matters, but ultimately Ukraine was no threat, and a diplomatic agreement which would remove Russian troops in exchange for Ukraine's perpetual neutrality is one foreseeable outcome an optimist can hope for.

Uighur independence is not an existential threat to China. China could let the territory go free with little real consequence. Furthermore, my reading of it is that even though the Uighurs want independence, they could be satisfied with less. An agreement whereby the Uighurs have internal self-government while China is recognized as overlord and retains external suzerainty is a foreseeable outcome.

Quite the opposite from those two, Hamas is a real existential threat to Israel. Unlike Xinjiang, Hamas cannot be satisfied with self-government. They've had self-government for almost 30 years, and all that time they've only used it to launch attacks on Israel. Every time there's another ceasefire, Hamas just goes back to building more rockets and plotting its next attack. The destruction of Israel is integral to everything they do. Their charter calls for it, their leaders talk about it ceaselessly, their recruits swear an oath to it. Hamas is pretty much a single-issue political party, and that single issue is murdering Jews. Israel can never be safe until Hamas is completely obliterated. It's a do-or-die mission.

Russia could exit Ukraine and never hear another word from the Ukrainians. China could exit Xinjiang and never be troubled again. Every time Israeli forces exit Gaza, another barrage of missiles follows them home.

[saxitoxin]

I don't get Duk. He furiously denounces the wealthy and entitled on one hand, but faithfully supports all the causes of the wealthy and entitled on the other (Ukraine, Israel, etc.).

If Duk were leading the French Revolution instead of Robespierre, Louis XVI would still have his head.

[Votanic]

Another annoying double-post... Please, enjoy this beautiful picture instead.

[Votanic]

I don't get Duk. He furiously denounces the wealthy and entitled on one hand, but faithfully supports all the causes of the wealthy and entitled on the other (Ukraine, Israel, etc.).

If Duk were leading the French Revolution instead of Robespierre, Louis XVI would still have his head.

You mean Russia and Israel. Putin be so entitled.

[Dukasaur]

I don't get Duk. He furiously denounces the wealthy and entitled on one hand, but faithfully supports all the causes of the wealthy and entitled on the other (Ukraine, Israel, etc.).

If Duk were leading the French Revolution instead of Robespierre, Louis XVI would still have his head.

On the last point, yes, he probably would. I would have gone for a much more moderate revolution.

Ukraine certainly isn't wealthy and entitled. None of the former Soviet republics is doing particularly well, but Ukraine is slightly below the median even among them.

Israel may have a high GDP, but having to spend such an enormous amount just on self-defense is a perpetual drag on it, and the constant pitter-patter of missiles on the roof tends to reduce quality of life.

[Votanic]

Russia could exit Ukraine and never hear another word from the Ukrainians. China could exit Xinjiang and never be troubled again. Every time Israeli forces exit Gaza, another barrage of missiles follows them home.

Do you mean like how Russia took the Crimea and the West basically allowed them to keep it (until they wanted the whole thing).
OR
Do you mean like how Israel took Palestine and the West has allowed them to keep it (or at least 99% of it, except for that Gaza shithole)

You probably don't mean like how the Nazis took Austria in 1938 and the West was prepared to let them keep it... but that is another example with close parallels to both of the previous two examples.

[saxitoxin]

I don't get Duk. He furiously denounces the wealthy and entitled on one hand, but faithfully supports all the causes of the wealthy and entitled on the other (Ukraine, Israel, etc.).

If Duk were leading the French Revolution instead of Robespierre, Louis XVI would still have his head.

On the last point, yes, he probably would. I would have gone for a much more moderate revolution.

Ukraine certainly isn't wealthy and entitled. None of the former Soviet republics is doing particularly well, but Ukraine is slightly below the median even among them.

Israel may have a high GDP, but having to spend such an enormous amount just on self-defense is a perpetual drag on it, and the constant pitter-patter of missiles on the roof tends to reduce quality of life.

Ukraine and Israel are the favored causes of the Dick Cheneys and the Michael Bloombergs. There's not a wealthy autocrat alive in North America who isn't either a faithful cheerleader of Ukraine and Israel or - in the most exotic, minority of cases - quietly neutral.

[Dukasaur]

I don't get Duk. He furiously denounces the wealthy and entitled on one hand, but faithfully supports all the causes of the wealthy and entitled on the other (Ukraine, Israel, etc.).

If Duk were leading the French Revolution instead of Robespierre, Louis XVI would still have his head.

On the last point, yes, he probably would. I would have gone for a much more moderate revolution.

Ukraine certainly isn't wealthy and entitled. None of the former Soviet republics is doing particularly well, but Ukraine is slightly below the median even among them.

Israel may have a high GDP, but having to spend such an enormous amount just on self-defense is a perpetual drag on it, and the constant pitter-patter of missiles on the roof tends to reduce quality of life.

Ukraine and Israel are the favored causes of the Dick Cheneys and the Michael Bloombergs. There's not a wealthy autocrat alive in North America who isn't either a faithful cheerleader of Ukraine and Israel or - in the most exotic, minority of cases - quietly neutral.

If people support the right cause for the wrong reasons, so be it. Everyone accepts fellow-travelers, whatever their motives are.

[saxitoxin]

I don't get Duk. He furiously denounces the wealthy and entitled on one hand, but faithfully supports all the causes of the wealthy and entitled on the other (Ukraine, Israel, etc.).

If Duk were leading the French Revolution instead of Robespierre, Louis XVI would still have his head.

On the last point, yes, he probably would. I would have gone for a much more moderate revolution.

Ukraine certainly isn't wealthy and entitled. None of the former Soviet republics is doing particularly well, but Ukraine is slightly below the median even among them.

Israel may have a high GDP, but having to spend such an enormous amount just on self-defense is a perpetual drag on it, and the constant pitter-patter of missiles on the roof tends to reduce quality of life.

Ukraine and Israel are the favored causes of the Dick Cheneys and the Michael Bloombergs. There's not a wealthy autocrat alive in North America who isn't either a faithful cheerleader of Ukraine and Israel or - in the most exotic, minority of cases - quietly neutral.

If people support the right cause for the wrong reasons, so be it. Everyone accepts fellow-travelers, whatever their motives are.

I'd suggest you're supporting the wrong cause for the right reasons.

You want to alleviate the suffering of the Ukes but refuse to accept the best way to do that is for them to simply stop fighting. They could literally, unilaterally end the war at 3 p.m. today just by doing that. Day to day life won't change meaningfully for them after a Russian victory other than the bombs will stop falling. They're not facing any existential threat more dire than pacification.

[bigtoughralf]

Leaving aside that Xinjiang is of huge strategic and economic value, isn't a Uyghur ethnostate and is already is a devolved autonomous region, your argument seems to be:

Hamas is a real existential threat to Israel... Hamas cannot be satisfied with self-government.

Palestine has never had self-governance. That's the whole point. Most of the West Bank is under permanent Israeli occupation and while Israeli troops left Gaza in the 00s, the Israeli government still controls Gaza's coast, airspace and trade, and has therefore effectively kept it under occupation.

If 'they're an existential threat' is the same thing as 'it's okay to murder their civilians' then the Hamas attacks on October 7th were (by your logic) legitimate military manoeuvres against an existential threat.

Or do you think attacking civilians - including the Hamas attacks and including the IDF's murder or 20,000 civilians - is not okay?

[Votanic]

Leaving aside that Xinjiang is of huge strategic and economic value, isn't a Uyghur ethnostate and is already is a devolved autonomous region, your argument seems to be:

Hamas is a real existential threat to Israel... Hamas cannot be satisfied with self-government.

Palestine has never had self-governance. That's the whole point. Most of the West Bank is under permanent Israeli occupation and while Israeli troops left Gaza in the 00s, the Israeli government still controls Gaza's coast, airspace and trade, and has therefore effectively kept it under occupation.

If 'they're an existential threat' is the same thing as 'it's okay to murder their civilians' then the Hamas attacks on October 7th were (by your logic) legitimate military manoeuvres against an existential threat.

Or do you think attacking civilians - including the Hamas attacks and including the IDF's murder or 20,000 civilians - is not okay?

Let us never forget that supposed 'civilians' are just soft, over-privileged assholes who are trying to shirk the life-long military duty that is life, itself.
'Everyone comes out of one hole fighting, and then they fight, fight,and fight, until they get put into another hole' (or get cremated).

[Dukasaur]

If 'they're an existential threat' is the same thing as 'it's okay to murder their civilians' then the Hamas attacks on October 7th were (by your logic) legitimate military manoeuvres against an existential threat.

Or do you think attacking civilians - including the Hamas attacks and including the IDF's murder or 20,000 civilians - is not okay?

You keep talking 'round and 'round in circles.

I don't know if you're genuinely confused or trying to be a troll.

1. Hamas is a criminal organization whose sole reason for existing is religious bigotry and the desire to kill Jews.
2. If Israel is ever to have peach, Hamas needs to be utterly dismantled.
3. Intentionally killing civilians is not the IDF's function. It is trying to hunt down Hamas. Unfortunately, Hamas is composed of sniveling cowards who hide behind civilians, so some casualties are absolutely unavoidable.

When the police engage in shootouts with criminals in the streets of any city, innocent people do sometimes get shot. Are you suggesting that the police everywhere should just throw up their hands and let criminal gangs rule the world?

[Votanic]

If 'they're an existential threat' is the same thing as 'it's okay to murder their civilians' then the Hamas attacks on October 7th were (by your logic) legitimate military manoeuvres against an existential threat.

Or do you think attacking civilians - including the Hamas attacks and including the IDF's murder or 20,000 civilians - is not okay?

You keep talking 'round and 'round in circles.

I don't know if you're genuinely confused or trying to be a troll.

1. Hamas is a criminal organization whose sole reason for existing is religious bigotry and the desire to kill Jews.
   
2. If Israel is ever to have peach, Hamas needs to be utterly dismantled.
3. Intentionally killing civilians is not the IDF's function. It is trying to hunt down Hamas. Unfortunately, Hamas is composed of sniveling cowards who hide behind civilians, so some casualties are absolutely unavoidable.

When the police engage in shootouts with criminals in the streets of any city, innocent people do sometimes get shot. Are you suggesting that the police everywhere should just throw up their hands and let criminal gangs rule the world?

Not since the days of old Byzantium has the classic rivalry between the Blue and the Green been more hotly contested.

The fans are at a fevered pitch equal to that of the players. Shouts from the stands leaving no doubt as to what each really thinks of the opposing team.
It turning out to be quite a game... and I for one do not envy the clean-up crew.

[ConfederateSS]

If 'they're an existential threat' is the same thing as 'it's okay to murder their civilians' then the Hamas attacks on October 7th were (by your logic) legitimate military manoeuvres against an existential threat.

Or do you think attacking civilians - including the Hamas attacks and including the IDF's murder or 20,000 civilians - is not okay?

You keep talking 'round and 'round in circles.

I don't know if you're genuinely confused or trying to be a troll.

1. Hamas is a criminal organization whose sole reason for existing is religious bigotry and the desire to kill Jews.
   
2. If Israel is ever to have peach, Hamas needs to be utterly dismantled.
3. Intentionally killing civilians is not the IDF's function. It is trying to hunt down Hamas. Unfortunately, Hamas is composed of sniveling cowards who hide behind civilians, so some casualties are absolutely unavoidable.

When the police engage in shootouts with criminals in the streets of any city, innocent people do sometimes get shot. Are you suggesting that the police everywhere should just throw up their hands and let criminal gangs rule the world?

Not since the days of old Byzantium has the classic rivalry between the Blue and the Green been more hotly contested.

The fans are at a fevered pitch equal to that of the players. Shouts from the stands leaving no doubt as to what each really thinks of the opposing team.
It turning out to be quite a game... and I for one do not envy the clean-up crew.

-------WHAT???...YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD OF MICHIGAN, MICHIGAN STATE... RIVALRY???... ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[saxitoxin]

The wealthy gajillionaire Alec Baldwin, who was recently able to shoot a union laborer dead without any legal repercussions, is - of course - an Israel supporter. Today, he went out to an anti-genocide march in NYC and started insulting the marchers and was safely escorted by a phalanx of NYPD officers who served as his pro bono private bodyguards financed by New York's peasant class.

https://twitter.com/probablyreadit/stat ... 5435009038

Duk supports the causes supported by:
- Dick Cheney
- Condoleeza Rice
- George Bush
- Michael Bloomberg
- Bill Ackman
- Big Business
- American Military-Industrial Complex
- New York Police Department
- Alec Baldwin

[bigtoughralf]

You keep talking 'round and 'round in circles.

Because every time I ask the same yes/no question you don't give a straight answer.

When the police engage in shootouts with criminals in the streets of any city, innocent people do sometimes get shot. Are you suggesting that the police everywhere should just throw up their hands and let criminal gangs rule the world?

What a bizarre analogy.

In the space of 2 months the IDF has killed 20,000 civilians including through bombing refugee camps, mosques, churches, hospitals and schools, as well as half of Gaza's civilian housing. Is that your idea of how security forces should go about their business?