Illegal Immigration

[ritz627]

Not only that they have parades in London/England seeking the destruction of the country that took them in. WTF!!!!

I think the other guy is missing the point.

Illegal Immigrants DO NOT PAY TAXES.....

Imagine for a second they did pay taxes, it would be quite easy to round them all because the government would know where they are working!!!

You can never get rid of them. It would destroy the American economy.

[Nobunaga]

... If America preaches its democratic ideals across the world, why don't we practice them in our own country?

... It's not a valid connection. What do democratic ideals have to do with ignoring the rule of law?

... As for your other arguments, as to the feasibility of shipping all illegals back to Mexico, no argument - it would be a tremendous undertaking - like going to the moon or something. ... but America pulled that off.

... It is a very difficult situation, no argument, and the economics involved are huge. This is because the problem has been allowed to fester unattended for so long.

... How many buses can be scrounged up for the job? And ships? And building a real wall across the border, end to end, would require no miracle of engineering. It could be done, if anybody actually had the will to do it.

... And who would suffer? Well, now we get into the economics, and certainly the cost of goods and services would rise as a result.... but the point still sticks in the craw, doesn't it? Illegal aliens are criminals, every one. Companies that employ illegals are no less culpable and must be made to suffer legal penalties for their crimes - nothing like the slap on the wrist they receive now, with a knowing wink from Uncle Sam, signaling that this is just the cost of doing business.

... Add to this the fact that a majority of Americans favor very tough actions against illegal immigration, and are demanding (and being ignored) that something major be done about it.

... And here are a few "carefully researched factoids", concerning the state perhaps most impacted by illegal immigration, California:

1. Illegal immigrants costs the average household $1,183 per year.

2. Mexican immigrants account for only 3 percent of the state's economic output, despite comprising almost one-third of the population.

3. 41.5 percent of Mexican immigrants used "major welfare programs" like Medicaid and food stamps, while native Californians used only 14.2 percent of the same programs.

4. California hospitals provided $500 million last year in emergency care for illegal immigrants -- seven times the amount of the federal grant issued by to cover such costs.

5. Healthcare for illegals costs approximately $1.4 billion annually. Free medical care for illegals has degraded and closed some of America's finest emergency medical facilities and caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospitals have closed their doors as a result.

6. The cost of incarcerating undocumented immigrants in prisons and jails in California is approximately $1.4 billion per year

... Personally, this has had zero effect on my life (nowhere near California), BUT, I am presently attempting to obtain a green card, LEGALLY, for my wife, and you would not believe the bureaucracy, the money and the headaches... and the TIME involved in this undertaking. To see illegals just jump a fence, squeeze out a kid ("anchor-babies") and be set for life... makes me want to buy an automatic weapon and take a trip to south Texas.

...

[ritz627]

The first question stems back to another thread, when the state government paid for a attorney, just like they would with any other criminal. It would not be just a tremendous undertaking getting rid of illegal immigrants, it is impossible. They have imbeaded themselves so far in our economy that getting rid of them would cause entire companies to collapse, its just not worth it, and if you were to actually try to do it, very little people would agree to fund it. And with the budget deficiet where it is now, we are in no place to fund it with our own government. Getting rid of them would also cause an even greater mass movement towards outsourcing jobs, hurting our economy even further. Getting rid of them would cause more harm then good by far. As I have said before, most illegal immigrants try to enter the country first as legal ones, but are put on a waiting list so massive that they would most likely die before being allowed to enter legally. On top of that, you will never be able to stop them from entering, no matter how hard you try. When people's lives are at stake, they will do anything they can to save it. I appreciate you being the first to answer my questions though.

By the way, can I get a source for those facts?

[spurgistan]

... If America preaches its democratic ideals across the world, why don't we practice them in our own country?

... It's not a valid connection. What do democratic ideals have to do with ignoring the rule of law?

... As for your other arguments, as to the feasibility of shipping all illegals back to Mexico, no argument - it would be a tremendous undertaking - like going to the moon or something. ... but America pulled that off.

... It is a very difficult situation, no argument, and the economics involved are huge. This is because the problem has been allowed to fester unattended for so long.

... How many buses can be scrounged up for the job? And ships? And building a real wall across the border, end to end, would require no miracle of engineering. It could be done, if anybody actually had the will to do it.

... And who would suffer? Well, now we get into the economics, and certainly the cost of goods and services would rise as a result.... but the point still sticks in the craw, doesn't it? Illegal aliens are criminals, every one. Companies that employ illegals are no less culpable and must be made to suffer legal penalties for their crimes - nothing like the slap on the wrist they receive now, with a knowing wink from Uncle Sam, signaling that this is just the cost of doing business.

... Add to this the fact that a majority of Americans favor very tough actions against illegal immigration, and are demanding (and being ignored) that something major be done about it.

... And here are a few "carefully researched factoids", concerning the state perhaps most impacted by illegal immigration, California:

1. Illegal immigrants costs the average household $1,183 per year.

2. Mexican immigrants account for only 3 percent of the state's economic output, despite comprising almost one-third of the population.

3. 41.5 percent of Mexican immigrants used "major welfare programs" like Medicaid and food stamps, while native Californians used only 14.2 percent of the same programs.

4. California hospitals provided $500 million last year in emergency care for illegal immigrants -- seven times the amount of the federal grant issued by to cover such costs.

5. Healthcare for illegals costs approximately $1.4 billion annually. Free medical care for illegals has degraded and closed some of America's finest emergency medical facilities and caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospitals have closed their doors as a result.

6. The cost of incarcerating undocumented immigrants in prisons and jails in California is approximately $1.4 billion per year

... Personally, this has had zero effect on my life (nowhere near California), BUT, I am presently attempting to obtain a green card, LEGALLY, for my wife, and you would not believe the bureaucracy, the money and the headaches... and the TIME involved in this undertaking. To see illegals just jump a fence, squeeze out a kid ("anchor-babies") and be set for life... makes me want to buy an automatic weapon and take a trip to south Texas.

...

Thank you, for exposing how hard it is to enter our fair country legally. It might (follow me here) be even harder for uneducated manual laborers from an underdeveloped country to gain access to the freedoms we have (err, maybe that should be past tense...) Also, anchor babies wouldn't guarantee you or your wife citizenship (sorry!) just the kid.

And to the top economic statements - our medicare system doesn't work anyways, and Social Security would have already crashed were it not for immigrants pumping somwhere between 5-7 billion dollars a year into the system.

And hulmey, stop saying illegal immigrants don't pay taxes! Stop it, no matter how well you bold it or put in big font, that doesn't mean you know the vagaries of American tax law better than Americans!

[hulmey]

Alrite if you say they do pay taxes smart-arse. Show me the proof

And please dont get confused with illegal immigrants and immigrants as you seemed to do with your last piece!!!

[MR. Nate]

If we switched to a flat sales tax, everybody would have to pay fair taxes, including illegal immigrants, because it's based on how much you spend, and the richer you are, the more you spend. Just a thought.

As for Christian love applying to illegal immigrants, I don't know how you can say that someone who is in your country illegally is not your neighbor, Samaritans were enemy of Jews. That being said, you have to balance your responsibility toward your government (keep the population legal) and your responsibility toward God (love your neighbor as he loves them). It's something to think about.

[wicked]

Some Americans dont' pay taxes either, and most all lie on them, so should they all be booted too? Why stop there? What about other law-breakers? Do we need an exile island?

[ksslemp]

Some Americans dont' pay taxes either, and most all lie on them, so should they all be booted too? Why stop there? What about other law-breakers? Do we need an exile island?

ABSURD!!!!!! Speak for yourself.

some "Dirtbag" Americans don't pay taxes, and SOME, not MOST lie on them.
these people are not real americans because they put currency ahead of country.

[hecter]

Some Americans dont' pay taxes either, and most all lie on them, so should they all be booted too? Why stop there? What about other law-breakers? Do we need an exile island?

ABSURD!!!!!! Speak for yourself.

some "Dirtbag" Americans don't pay taxes, and SOME, not MOST lie on them.
these people are not real americans because they put currency ahead of country.

Just like the American government puts currency over it's people and the people of other nations?

[ksslemp]

Here is how i stand on Illegal Immigrants:

I don't give a shit what color you are. I don't give a shit what country you came from. I don't care how many kids you've "Dropped" on U.S. soil.
I don't care if you pay taxes or even if you're a "Nice/Hard-Working" person,
If you didn't respect my country, it's citizens and our laws and are living here illegally, GET THE HELL OUT!!!!!

The only "Right" you are granted is the Right to LEAVE, Use It!

and take you're "Anchor Babies" with you.

[wicked]

Some Americans dont' pay taxes either, and most all lie on them, so should they all be booted too? Why stop there? What about other law-breakers? Do we need an exile island?

ABSURD!!!!!! Speak for yourself.

some "Dirtbag" Americans don't pay taxes, and SOME, not MOST lie on them.
these people are not real americans because they put currency ahead of country.

You're correct, I meant to write some. And from what I see "real americans" put currency first. Face it, we're a greedy nation.

[Stopper]

Alrite if you say they do pay taxes smart-arse. Show me the proof

Being a chartered accountant, I'm inclined to take spurgistan at his word. I can imagine it would be easier for many businesses to operate apparently legally, and declare at least most of their income - in which case they'd want to offset the cost of their wages, regardless of whether their workers are legal or not. This usually means you'd need to declare the wages paid.

If the American payroll scheme is anything like the British PAYE, then you might, judging from your previous comments, be quite surprised at how little cross-checking there is between the same employee in different jobs. You could probably put the same person on 10 different payrolls, and the Revenue would never notice. It appears to be just too administratively difficult to keep checks on people in the way you're suggesting.

That's to say nothing of people who flit from one job to the next in quick succession, like a lot of (legal) immigrants do in the UK.

That took ages - my point is, it's often quite easy for illegal immigrants to pay taxes in the UK, and you can't catch people by looking at payrolls. I'd be surprised if it was different anywhere else.

If we switched to a flat sales tax, everybody would have to pay fair taxes, including illegal immigrants, because it's based on how much you spend, and the richer you are, the more you spend. Just a thought.

Sorry, but this is a Terrible Idea! It exists in the EU, it's called VAT, and it's even worse than flat income taxes. The richer a person is, the smaller proportion of their income they spend on items likely to be subject to a sales tax, and therefore the smaller proportion of tax-to-income they pay. It wouldn't be flat, it'd be regressive. The poorer you are, the bigger proportion you'd pay. Terrible!

[ksslemp]

Some Americans dont' pay taxes either, and most all lie on them, so should they all be booted too? Why stop there? What about other law-breakers? Do we need an exile island?

ABSURD!!!!!! Speak for yourself.

some "Dirtbag" Americans don't pay taxes, and SOME, not MOST lie on them.
these people are not real americans because they put currency ahead of country.

You're correct, I meant to write some. And from what I see "real americans" put currency first. Face it, we're a greedy nation.

I hope that isn't factually true.
If so, I'm not a "real" American.

[ksslemp]

STOPPER wrote

If we switched to a flat sales tax, everybody would have to pay fair taxes, including illegal immigrants, because it's based on how much you spend, and the richer you are, the more you spend. Just a thought.

Sorry, but this is a Terrible Idea! It exists in the EU, it's called VAT, and it's even worse than flat income taxes. The richer a person is, the smaller proportion of their income they spend on items likely to be subject to a sales tax, and therefore the smaller proportion of tax-to-income they pay. It wouldn't be flat, it'd be regressive. The poorer you are, the bigger proportion you'd pay. Terrible!

I agree generally, but i believe the U.S. version of the flat tax includes a rebate based upon your yearly income. I bought a book on it several years ago, i'll have to go back and review. It hasn't been discussed much in the states lately.

[ritz627]

Here is how i stand on Illegal Immigrants:

I don't give a shit what color you are. I don't give a shit what country you came from. I don't care how many kids you've "Dropped" on U.S. soil.
I don't care if you pay taxes or even if you're a "Nice/Hard-Working" person,
If you didn't respect my country, it's citizens and our laws and are living here illegally, GET THE HELL OUT!!!!!

The only "Right" you are granted is the Right to LEAVE, Use It!

and take you're "Anchor Babies" with you.

The fact of the matter is, even if you wanted them to get out, you never could get them to leave. When these people's lives are at stake, you will never be able to stop them from entering the country. I will say again, they are embedded deep into the American economy, and getting rid of them would hurt America tremendously and definitely cause more harm than good, not to mention (once again), that they keep jobs in America, rather than having them outsourced. Are you seriously going to deny these people basic human rights that we even offer any other criminal in America because of a few papers? I'm sorry, but thats not only immoral, its just flat out wrong. If you don't care what country they came from, doesn't that kind of defeat the whole idea of citizenship? There are many worse people here in America that are given rights just because they are born on the soil they are born on. You cannot deny people rights soley based on where they come from. In fact, I believe you should never deny people such rights, and if you followed America and its ideals truly, I would hope to think that you would say the same.

[SKETRS]

Some pay and I'm sure alot don't. My family owned rentals and rented to a lot of people of latino origins. When we would clean the apartments or come through for quarterly inspections of premises or for repairs I always saw a list of socials next to the phone so they could use them on their employment applications. I'm guessing that used to be a fairly common thing. I'm sure some pay taxes if they are using socials. Even if they are'nt their own. Maybe not though.

[unriggable]

Some Americans dont' pay taxes either, and most all lie on them, so should they all be booted too? Why stop there? What about other law-breakers? Do we need an exile island?

ABSURD!!!!!! Speak for yourself.

some "Dirtbag" Americans don't pay taxes, and SOME, not MOST lie on them.
these people are not real americans because they put currency ahead of country.

You're correct, I meant to write some. And from what I see "real americans" put currency first. Face it, we're a greedy nation.

I hope that isn't factually true.
If so, I'm not a "real" American.

Americans are greedy. Face it, you care more about your monthly check than you do about the people you serve getting that money. I know I do.

[MR. Nate]

Sorry, but this is a Terrible Idea! It exists in the EU, it's called VAT, and it's even worse than flat income taxes. The richer a person is, the smaller proportion of their income they spend on items likely to be subject to a sales tax, and therefore the smaller proportion of tax-to-income they pay.

OK, well, hadn't ever thought about it, so maybe. But wouldn't it make sense to put a flat sales tax on say, houses, which rich people buy more of, and poor people often don't buy at all, so that the guy with a 12 million dollar loft in manhattan, a place in Colorado, a spot in the Hamptons, and one in FL would have to cough up for the illegals he's paying to wash his sheets and mow his lawn?

[ksslemp]

Some Americans dont' pay taxes either, and most all lie on them, so should they all be booted too? Why stop there? What about other law-breakers? Do we need an exile island?

ABSURD!!!!!! Speak for yourself.

some "Dirtbag" Americans don't pay taxes, and SOME, not MOST lie on them.
these people are not real americans because they put currency ahead of country.

You're correct, I meant to write some. And from what I see "real americans" put currency first. Face it, we're a greedy nation.

I hope that isn't factually true.
If so, I'm not a "real" American.

Americans are greedy. Face it, you care more about your monthly check than you do about the people you serve getting that money. I know I do.

EAT ME!

[ksslemp]

Some pay and I'm sure alot don't. My family owned rentals and rented to a lot of people of latino origins. When we would clean the apartments or come through for quarterly inspections of premises or for repairs I always saw a list of socials next to the phone so they could use them on their employment applications. I'm guessing that used to be a fairly common thing. I'm sure some pay taxes if they are using socials. Even if they are'nt their own. Maybe not though.

The thing is i don't give a shit if they do pay taxes! Paying taxes does not make you a citizen, Christ the peoples republic of China pays taxes to the U.S. Gov't! (tariffs)
If they're in my country illegally, i want them out. If bill gates was a citizen of another country and was living in mine illegally i'd want his ass out too!

It's not about money, it's about the rule of law and respect for my country and it's sovereignty.

[jay_a2j]

So I ask you again, have illegal immigrants ever had a negative impact on your life? If America preaches its democratic ideals across the world, why don't we practice them in our own country?

YES! When illegal immigrants go to the Emergency Room and don't pay the bill it causes medical services to INFLATE and in turn the amount I pay in insurance goes up!There are a lot of other ways as well. (When they use social services its TAXPAYER money they are getting) You need to look at the big picture...illegal immigration hurts America in FAR more ways then we benefit from it. And it will, if left unchecked, be the downfall of the world's one remaining superpower.


Second question?????? What does a democracy have to do with breaking the law? They are breaking the law!!!! Just like if I went to Canada to live and work ILLEGALLY, I would be deported when caught!

[ritz627]

You cannot just get them to leave even if you wanted them to. It would cause a major economic catastrophe, entire businesses would collapse, and even more jobs would go over seas. No one would agree to fund such a major opperation, and with the federal deficiet where it is now, the government is in no position to do so. You cannot get them to leave, and you will never stop them from coming when thier own lives are at stake.

[ritz627]

So I ask you again, have illegal immigrants ever had a negative impact on your life? If America preaches its democratic ideals across the world, why don't we practice them in our own country?

Second question?????? What does a democracy have to do with breaking the law? They are breaking the law!!!! Just like if I went to Canada to live and work ILLEGALLY, I would be deported when caught!

The second question refers to another situation where xtra was upset because a illegal immigrant was provided a laywer for court, just like any other "criminal" would in the US.

For my response to the first thing you said, read my above post. It would just cause more harm than good to get rid of them, even if you wanted to.

[ksslemp]

You cannot just get them to leave even if you wanted them to. It would cause a major economic catastrophe, entire business would collapse, and even more jobs would go over seas. No one would agree to fund such a major opperation, and with the federal deficiet where it is now, the government is in no position to do so now. You cannot get them to leave, and you will never stop them from coming when thier own lives are at stake.

Their lives aren't at stake! these people aren't starving, they pay thousands of dollars to be smuggled across the border. If they wanted a better life, my suggestion would be to not have so many children! It's not that difficult to figure out. Respect our laws and apply to come here legally, if it takes longer than they like, Too Bad!

They don't have a "right" to live here! but we have the "duty" to protect our borders and enforce our laws.
Jay is right, the very survival of my country is at stake! Secure our Borders Now!

[ritz627]

Lol, the survival of our country is not at stake. You are missing the point, you will never be able to stop people from entering, no matter how "secure our borders are". Once again, these people arent taking your jobs, they are keeping them in America. Besides, removing them would induce an economic disaster, businesses would collapse and no one would agree to fund such an undertaking. And with federal deficiet where it is now, the government is in no position to fund it. Get it out of your heads, you will never ever get these people to leave, and you will never be able to stop them from entering.