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What is the point of war? Does it create peace?

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Postby Minister Masket on Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:10 pm

Anarchist wrote:not exactly what you meant.

Babylon 5(the begining) has a first encounter situation where the Minbari race approaches with gun ports open(approach open handed-sign of respect)
The terrans confuse this for an act of aggression, open fire. Killing their highest leader. This is followed by a "holy war" where the advanced race
kicks our ass all the way back to Earth. Ending their attack before completely wiping us out. Leading to the babylon 5 project dedicated to peace.Funny, it takes our near extinction to dedicate us to peace

You buffoon! That is a TV SERIES you moron! I'm talking about REAL LIFE.[/i]
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Postby Anarchist on Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:14 pm

Minister Masket wrote:I like to think of humans as the perfect warlike race. Think about it...
3 things humans are very good at doing:
1) Fighting
2) Surviving
3) Reproducing
Point 1 is pretty obvious, just look how much violence our history contains.
Point 2 comes from the quote "Human beings will do anything to survive", which they do.
And point 3 pretty much explains itself, how else did we get a population of 6.7 billion?
I hate it when movies show aliens attacking us. Just not practical. I'd like to see a movie about us attacking them; much more plausible, plus we'd probably win with a huge numerical advantage.
Any opinions on this?
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Postby Minister Masket on Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:41 pm

Minister Masket wrote:I like to think of humans as the perfect warlike race. Think about it...
3 things humans are very good at doing:
1) Fighting
2) Surviving
3) Reproducing
Point 1 is pretty obvious, just look how much violence our history contains.
Point 2 comes from the quote "Human beings will do anything to survive", which they do.
And point 3 pretty much explains itself, how else did we get a population of 6.7 billion?
I hate it when movies show aliens attacking us. Just not practical. I'd like to see a movie about us attacking them; much more plausible, plus we'd probably win with a huge numerical advantage.
Any opinions on this?
Touche.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:34 pm

Minister Masket wrote:
Anarchist wrote:not exactly what you meant.

Babylon 5(the begining) has a first encounter situation where the Minbari race approaches with gun ports open(approach open handed-sign of respect)
The terrans confuse this for an act of aggression, open fire. Killing their highest leader. This is followed by a "holy war" where the advanced race
kicks our ass all the way back to Earth. Ending their attack before completely wiping us out. Leading to the babylon 5 project dedicated to peace.Funny, it takes our near extinction to dedicate us to peace

You buffoon! That is a TV SERIES you moron! I'm talking about REAL LIFE.[/i]


Good point, but fiction can give an insight into the mind of man. B5, I think, handles the issue nicely. But, the lesser planets, technologically and in terms of population, are going to get murdered. The book 'Starship Troopers' comes to mind, a mass airborne landing at all C3 (Command, Control, Communication) centers and large metropolitan areas.
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Postby Nobunaga on Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:14 pm

... Anybody think peace is possible with these guys?

... Somebody mentioned it before in this thread ... throw religion into the mix and peace becomes a great deal more difficult.

________________

... Topic sub-shift now. I read that the US State Department (and the Federal government as a whole) is now going to great lengths to"ignore" Chinese human rights violations, military build-ups (near Taiwan and Japan) and aggression. The reason: China's need for resources is growing so quickly that they are already coming into conflict with the United States ... and resource acquisition is a huge reason (historically) to get into a fight.

... Iraqi oil, if they ever get truly up and running, is already largely promised to the Chinese.... not to us. More "conflict avoidance" no doubt.

...
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Postby Minister Masket on Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:29 pm

Religion makes everyone go crazy...
Well, except for atheists of course.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:46 am

Anarchist wrote:As a sinner and not a Christian.
I hope for Jesus to come back! However I feel waiting for it isnt reason enough to allow the world to descend into chaos.

its the arguement of utopia is impossible. That doesnt mean we shouldnt strive to make the world a better place.

Ive often wondered if aliens would be more mature then we are, would they live like us and consume every natural resource and move on, or would they understand that conservation is important? If this is true, it will be us that makes the fatal mistake, if not then were screwed.


Every believer would like the rapture to happen now. Only problem, "You'll know not the day nor the hour". So, we try to spread the word to all the world (ever here of the Great Commission?), led good and proserous lives, help our fellow man according to our ablity (maybe not nessesarily according to his/her/their need, but some is better than none).

As for the world descending into chao, too late, its already there.

Utopia is an impossiblity. Will we come close? I doubt that. Are we going to try, Yes. Why? Because it is better to have a goal and some hope, no matter how unattainable, than to see things in a strictly fatalistic manner.

As for the aliens, it all depends on how long ago they figured out how to live in your marxist utopia. If they did so at what would have been their Industrial Revolution (pre-nuclear), then it will be a one-sided slaugher in our favor. If later, say, Space Age (post-sputnik), then it may still be an even-match or even victory on our part, as they'll have to balance war-time production with maintaining economic equilibrum within their society. Worse still, as they'll likely have strict limits on population growth.
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Postby unriggable on Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:54 am

Minister Masket wrote:
Minister Masket wrote:I like to think of humans as the perfect warlike race. Think about it...
3 things humans are very good at doing:
1) Fighting
2) Surviving
3) Reproducing
Point 1 is pretty obvious, just look how much violence our history contains.
Point 2 comes from the quote "Human beings will do anything to survive", which they do.
And point 3 pretty much explains itself, how else did we get a population of 6.7 billion?
I hate it when movies show aliens attacking us. Just not practical. I'd like to see a movie about us attacking them; much more plausible, plus we'd probably win with a huge numerical advantage.
Any opinions on this?
Touche.


YOU JUST QUOTED YOURSELF.
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Postby Minister Masket on Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:04 pm

I KNOW, FOOL! T'WAS TO PROVE MY POINT IN THE ARGUMENT. HAVE A LOOK BEFORE STUPIDIZING YOURSELF FURTHER.
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Postby Avron on Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:19 pm

Population control?
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Postby Vix on Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:50 am

Eugenics..umm too much like social darwinism for my tastes. War can create peace, some one already pointed out WW11 . Humans are not unfortunatle,y the most placid of species, our hormones and a very primitive urge to possess territory thus safe guarding a reasonable resource center for furture generations makes us quite illogical about war and peace, oh and natural arrogance about our own personal cultures way being right doesn't help. We are still very tribal or what else are team sports for? We just beleive we are civilized, perhaps one day we will actually be but as we are now I doubt any nation in this world could claim to be truly civilized in the modern idea of the world. Now we could claim we are civilized in the way say Rome was...cus God knows we've got just as much Bread and circus as they do.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:38 pm

Avron wrote:Population control?


How else to keep demand perfectly balanced with supply. If the population growns very slowly, or even not at all, over a long period of time, one can meet the demand with no waste. Two-child policy, anyone?
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Postby Guiscard on Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:23 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
Avron wrote:Population control?


How else to keep demand perfectly balanced with supply. If the population growns very slowly, or even not at all, over a long period of time, one can meet the demand with no waste. Two-child policy, anyone?


Population control? Surely that undermines some kind of basic humanity? At least it does for me...

We HAVE the resources and ability to deal with massive population growth, bigger indeed than we have at the moment... We just won't all be able to have dishwashers, SUVs and eat at McDonalds.
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Postby Stopper on Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:01 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:So, we try to spread the word to all the world (ever here of the Great Commission?), led good and proserous lives, help our fellow man according to our ablity (maybe not nessesarily according to his/her/their need, but some is better than none).


Hehe, I like the way you seemed to quickly realise you needed to back-pedal there, lest the logic of your Christian beliefs should lead you to umm... "undesirable" conclusions, shall we say.
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Postby b.k. barunt on Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:56 am

Nailed that one Stopper. This wanker is an excellent example of why people hate Christianity. The message that Jesus brought had to do with sacrifice and self denial, but it has been glibly bastardized in this country to reflect materialistic hypocrisy and self serving right wing politics. Notice jenos' reference to "prosperous lives", and giving to others "well maybe not as much as they need, but some is better than none". Now he wants to play God by manipulating procreation. I know this isn't flame wars, but i have to say that jenos is one of the most ignorant cheesewankers i have had the misfortune to come across.
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Postby RobinJ on Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:32 am

Guiscard wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:
Avron wrote:Population control?


How else to keep demand perfectly balanced with supply. If the population growns very slowly, or even not at all, over a long period of time, one can meet the demand with no waste. Two-child policy, anyone?


Population control? Surely that undermines some kind of basic humanity? At least it does for me...

We HAVE the resources and ability to deal with massive population growth, bigger indeed than we have at the moment... We just won't all be able to have dishwashers, SUVs and eat at McDonalds.


The world would be fine for food if we all became more vegetarian. A field of spuds can feed a hell of a lot more people than a field of grass with a few cows in it. The only problem is that I prefer meat and I know that I sound like a selfish bastard for saying it but I would not like to live of vegetables all my life. Still, it's either that or the whole of Africa dies pretty soon - even I'm not that selfish
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:05 am

b.k. barunt wrote:Nailed that one Stopper. This wanker is an excellent example of why people hate Christianity. The message that Jesus brought had to do with sacrifice and self denial, but it has been glibly bastardized in this country to reflect materialistic hypocrisy and self serving right wing politics. Notice jenos' reference to "prosperous lives", and giving to others "well maybe not as much as they need, but some is better than none". Now he wants to play God by manipulating procreation. I know this isn't flame wars, but i have to say that jenos is one of the most ignorant cheesewankers i have had the misfortune to come across.


I was "playing devil's advocate" to point out the inherent flaws in marxism. That simple concept seems to escape both you and Stopper. Christ died so that we might have life. In order to live that life, you'll have to give up some things. 'Though in reallity, most of the impure stuff one can cling to is really restricting freedom. The part about giving to those in need is that it is to be done cheerfully and generously. Am I able to pay all a mans bills? No. Is anyone able to fund someone elses expenses without incuring severe debt? Not unless you're Bill Gates. Read me now, Asswipe?! (Regreting the last part) But you really need to pay VERY close attention to the drible that comes out of YOUR mouth (or in this context, fingers).
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:08 am

RobinJ wrote:
Guiscard wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:
Avron wrote:Population control?


How else to keep demand perfectly balanced with supply. If the population growns very slowly, or even not at all, over a long period of time, one can meet the demand with no waste. Two-child policy, anyone?


Population control? Surely that undermines some kind of basic humanity? At least it does for me...

We HAVE the resources and ability to deal with massive population growth, bigger indeed than we have at the moment... We just won't all be able to have dishwashers, SUVs and eat at McDonalds.


The world would be fine for food if we all became more vegetarian. A field of spuds can feed a hell of a lot more people than a field of grass with a few cows in it. The only problem is that I prefer meat and I know that I sound like a selfish bastard for saying it but I would not like to live of vegetables all my life. Still, it's either that or the whole of Africa dies pretty soon - even I'm not that selfish

Again, you highlight the flaws of an inherently unfair system. Not that what we have now is perfect, but then, nothing made by man is.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:20 am

Guiscard wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:
Avron wrote:Population control?


How else to keep demand perfectly balanced with supply. If the population growns very slowly, or even not at all, over a long period of time, one can meet the demand with no waste. Two-child policy, anyone?


Population control? Surely that undermines some kind of basic humanity? At least it does for me...

We HAVE the resources and ability to deal with massive population growth, bigger indeed than we have at the moment... We just won't all be able to have dishwashers, SUVs and eat at McDonalds.


Reeterating for the nimrods outhere, I agree. Such a policy undermines basic human freedoms, regardless of whether you're a secularist or a sectarian. B.K Barunt, Stopper, I hope this, if not the previous post I made, clears this up for you.
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Postby Stopper on Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:41 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:I was "playing devil's advocate" to point out the inherent flaws in marxism.


So, if I understand correctly - because you were playing devil's advocate, you don't agree with the following statement?

Jenos Ridan wrote:So, we try to ... help our fellow man according to our ablity (maybe not nessesarily according to his/her/their need, but some is better than none)


So presumably, the formulation you'd prefer would be:

We try to help our fellow man according to our ability, and according to his needs.


Or, is there some other formulation? Perhaps

We help ourselves according to our ability, and the devil take the hindmost.

Please clear this up - inquiring minds want to know.
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Postby Jehan on Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:59 am

b.k. barunt wrote:Nailed that one Stopper. This wanker is an excellent example of why people hate Christianity. The message that Jesus brought had to do with sacrifice and self denial, but it has been glibly bastardized in this country to reflect materialistic hypocrisy and self serving right wing politics. Notice jenos' reference to "prosperous lives", and giving to others "well maybe not as much as they need, but some is better than none". Now he wants to play God by manipulating procreation. I know this isn't flame wars, but i have to say that jenos is one of the most ignorant cheesewankers i have had the misfortune to come across.

wow, just reading this last page so i have no context on this one, but Christ came to save all, what he preached was caring for every single person who is in need, and yes, sacrifice, not sure what is happening in America so i guess i cant comment, but it seems your post is suggesting Christians are supposed to live in poverty according to the teachings of Christ? not true, though if a Christian sees someone in need and does nothing, then they will be held responsible for it. dunno if that helps or not.
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Postby b.k. barunt on Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:52 am

Jenos Ridan wrote:
b.k. barunt wrote:Nailed that one Stopper. This wanker is an excellent example of why people hate Christianity. The message that Jesus brought had to do with sacrifice and self denial, but it has been glibly bastardized in this country to reflect materialistic hypocrisy and self serving right wing politics. Notice jenos' reference to "prosperous lives", and giving to others "well maybe not as much as they need, but some is better than none". Now he wants to play God by manipulating procreation. I know this isn't flame wars, but i have to say that jenos is one of the most ignorant cheesewankers i have had the misfortune to come across.


Read me now, Asswipe?!
Try reading your Bible instead of preaching it. James 1:26 - "If any man among you seemeth to be religious and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain."
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:37 pm

Stopper wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:I was "playing devil's advocate" to point out the inherent flaws in marxism.


So, if I understand correctly - because you were playing devil's advocate, you don't agree with the following statement?

Jenos Ridan wrote:So, we try to ... help our fellow man according to our ablity (maybe not nessesarily according to his/her/their need, but some is better than none)


Read some of my last posts. Am I, all by my lonesome, going to feed all the starving? No. Is everyone in my church, together, going to have the funds. No. Why go we try? Because firstly, being a cheerful and able giver is part of being a disciple. Secondly, we'd all be assholes if we didn't.

Stopper wrote: So presumably, the formulation you'd prefer would be:

We try to help our fellow man according to our ability, and according to his needs.


I agree that while in princible that is a good idea, I sincerely doubt that it is possible to implement without strictly regulating the actions of inviduals.
However, we should try to meet the need and give according to what we can afford to part with. Is that going to be enough, no, but then as I said, having more than you did yesterday is better than what you had yesterday only.

Stopper wrote: Or, is there some other formulation? Perhaps

We help ourselves according to our ability, and the devil take the hindmost.

Please clear this up - inquiring minds want to know.


No, NO AND NOOOO AND NO MEANS NO!

There, any more clear now?
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:41 pm

Jehan wrote:
b.k. barunt wrote:Nailed that one Stopper. This wanker is an excellent example of why people hate Christianity. The message that Jesus brought had to do with sacrifice and self denial, but it has been glibly bastardized in this country to reflect materialistic hypocrisy and self serving right wing politics. Notice jenos' reference to "prosperous lives", and giving to others "well maybe not as much as they need, but some is better than none". Now he wants to play God by manipulating procreation. I know this isn't flame wars, but i have to say that jenos is one of the most ignorant cheesewankers i have had the misfortune to come across.

wow, just reading this last page so i have no context on this one, but Christ came to save all, what he preached was caring for every single person who is in need, and yes, sacrifice, not sure what is happening in America so i guess i cant comment, but it seems your post is suggesting Christians are supposed to live in poverty according to the teachings of Christ? not true, though if a Christian sees someone in need and does nothing, then they will be held responsible for it. dunno if that helps or not.


Good point. How can one feed the starving, clothe the naked, heal the sick and all that other good jazz if your just as desotote as the guy you're trying to help? A christian loves God first, not wealth. Money is nice, but riches carry a burden all there own.
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Postby Jenos Ridan on Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:46 pm

b.k. barunt wrote:
Jenos Ridan wrote:
b.k. barunt wrote:Nailed that one Stopper. This wanker is an excellent example of why people hate Christianity. The message that Jesus brought had to do with sacrifice and self denial, but it has been glibly bastardized in this country to reflect materialistic hypocrisy and self serving right wing politics. Notice jenos' reference to "prosperous lives", and giving to others "well maybe not as much as they need, but some is better than none". Now he wants to play God by manipulating procreation. I know this isn't flame wars, but i have to say that jenos is one of the most ignorant cheesewankers i have had the misfortune to come across.


Read me now, Asswipe?!
Try reading your Bible instead of preaching it. James 1:26 - "If any man among you seemeth to be religious and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain."


I'll admit, my choice of words was unwise. But you failed to address the real issues, especially the ones Jehan brought up. And given that you called me 'wanker' and 'cheesewanker' first, I think you need to reflect on the Word just as much as I do, if not more. Thanks for the verse, though.
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