Illegal Immigration

[hulmey]

illegal immigrants do not pay taxes full stop....THeres not point debating it because they dont!!!!

[Nobunaga]

... We are slow learners.... (underlines for emphasis added by yours truly)

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

... What was true in 1907 holds true a hundred years thereafter.

... In my most humble opinion, anyway.

[ritz627]

Illegal immigrants do not pay taxes thus should not be allowed to work in any country illegally....

what is wrong with you people??? Why should i pay taxes and illegal's dont???

So i am afraid the author who wrote this thread is just as dumb as Xtra and if he/she aint dumb then they probably aint older than 13.

Ps... I have nothing against legal immigrants working and paying taxes mind you

As spurgistan already pointed out, illegal do pay payroll taxes. And even if that wasn't the case, many legal residents don't even pay taxes. And when legal residents are arrested for not paying taxes, they still get a right to a fair trial, and have lawyer's paid supplied by the state, yet illegal immigrants shouldn't?

So let me get this straight. In you're opinion, illegal immigrants should not be treated humanely and given the same rights as every other human being in America why? Because they don't pay taxes "full stop". That's a pretty bleak and stuck-up view of humanity.

By the way...no one has answered any of my two questions before.

[spurgistan]

Anyways, hulmey, I'm not quite sure if your referring to American illegal immigration or the hordes of immigrants begging to be let into Malta, but in America, illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes, they just don't benefit from it. (and as far as income taxes go, sure, they probably don't pay those, but the vast majority of unpaid income taxes in my country don't have anything to do with illegal immigration)

Edit: Full Stop.

[Iz Man]

... We are slow learners.... (underlines for emphasis added by yours truly)

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

... What was true in 1907 holds true a hundred years thereafter.

... In my most humble opinion, anyway.

Well said.

[Neutrino]

You speech was arguing for a uniform, monoculture America. How can you justify this? In your opinion, should it be an entry condition to the US that you must discard any trace of your former culture? How can you argue for America to become a monoculture society when you are gleefully exporting your culture to other parts of the world?

Just say every nation on earth became ruthlessly monoculture; espoucing their culture and stamping out all others. Guess what would happen? A planet of Communist China's. Every nation would have to strictly enforce its borders and restrict the flow of information which dosen't support it's culture. Hell, those minorities which you spoke about would be up in arms, because suddenly their traditional culture is illegal.

Please, justify this for us.

[Chad22342]

It's not even worth it, America is rapidly going downhill anyways.

[Anarchist]

you know who really should have cracked down on illegal immigrants? The native americans.....



just saying.


Modern day hispanics descend from native americans so technically, they are more legal than us.

oi, yet somehow this land now belongs to us... Just because you wish to claim something does not make it yours, and the economic problems are caused by the system not by the people. I dont believe in any of it.

[Nobunaga]

You speech was arguing for a uniform, monoculture America. How can you justify this? In your opinion, should it be an entry condition to the US that you must discard any trace of your former culture? How can you argue for America to become a monoculture society when you are gleefully exporting your culture to other parts of the world?

Just say every nation on earth became ruthlessly monoculture; espoucing their culture and stamping out all others. Guess what would happen? A planet of Communist China's. Every nation would have to strictly enforce its borders and restrict the flow of information which dosen't support it's culture. Hell, those minorities which you spoke about would be up in arms, because suddenly their traditional culture is illegal.

Please, justify this for us.

... Not sure if your post was meant for me, or for Iz, but I'll let go with my 2 cents.

... To start, there is no need to assume extreme views and attitudes in folks who disagree with you, sir. Obviously, we cannot, and certainly should not, ever, attempt to erase or otherwise weaken the ties Americans feel for their roots. However... this connection exists in the individual, and within groups of like people who find pleasure in fellowship with folks from their "home country". Thus there are numerous American-Irish clubs, American-Romanian, American-Chinese, American-Polish, etc... all over the place. ... But you'll notice the first word in all of the above....

... To embrace America and what it is to be an American does not require one to cast off one's past. But its DOES require the placement of allegiance with America, above any other nation, and ... (and this is where we get problems)... to adapt to American society, as an American... not as a Chinese, not as a Mexican, not as a Cuban or a Bulgarian, etc...

... Multi-Culturalism does not work. Now I make no claim at being expert on the subject, but I pay attention to what is happening at home in the states, and around the world. Take a good hard look at London and Paris... and see what Multi-Culturalism does for a nation. One has to wonder why it is your government is trying to PAY all the Afghan refugees who fled the Taliban, to go back to Afghanistan. ... Let me recommend a good book: It's called Londonistan. Explains how the idea of multi-culturalsim and cultural relativism is leading to the complete breakdown of London.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londonistan_(book)

... Divided loyalties lead to strife and conflict. I almost gag saying something so incredibly hokey as this, but... "United We Stand". ... you probably know the rest.

... Now I wait for the inevitable... to be labeled a racist, or perhaps a fascist. Well, you're not American, (at least your IP address isn't) so you probably have more creative comebacks.

... for what it's worth.

[hulmey]

As spurgistan already pointed out, illegal do pay payroll taxes. And even if that wasn't the case, many legal residents don't even pay taxes. And when legal residents are arrested for not paying taxes, they still get a right to a fair trial, and have lawyer's paid supplied by the state, yet illegal immigrants shouldn't?

So let me get this straight. In you're opinion, illegal immigrants should not be treated humanely and given the same rights as every other human being in America why? Because they don't pay taxes "full stop". That's a pretty bleak and stuck-up view of humanity.

By the way...no one has answered any of my two questions before.

In Malta the illegal immigrants are exaclty that Illegal. They are not allowed to work and are rounded up and kept in Army type barracks waiting to be shipped back to their home or face a tribunal/trial. This tribunal/trial decides if they should be given Refugee status

They come here either fleeing persceution or a better life. Some day die on their journey but here it is a huge problem becuase Malta is the Gateway to Europe.

If someone breaks the law they deserve the punishment of the law. For example; im a American citizen and have no job and no education and i break into your house and stay their without your permission there , would you like it.

I have nothing against Immigrants just the Illegal variety. Oh and they are called Illegal for a reason and if they pay taxes like you say im sure the American goverment would find them rather easily and depart them stragiht back home.[/quote]

[Stopper]

Let me recommend a good book: It's called Londonistan. Explains how the idea of multi-culturalsim and cultural relativism is leading to the complete breakdown of London.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londonistan_(book)

It might be better to recommend books not written by far right-wing lunatics. For example, I don't think any sane person would recommend Godless by Ann Coulter to get an idea of the state of America today.

I've a suspicion that most Londoners would not agree with the idea that London is heading towards a complete breakdown.

[vtmarik]

You speech was arguing for a uniform, monoculture America. How can you justify this? In your opinion, should it be an entry condition to the US that you must discard any trace of your former culture? How can you argue for America to become a monoculture society when you are gleefully exporting your culture to other parts of the world?

Just say every nation on earth became ruthlessly monoculture; espoucing their culture and stamping out all others. Guess what would happen? A planet of Communist China's. Every nation would have to strictly enforce its borders and restrict the flow of information which dosen't support it's culture. Hell, those minorities which you spoke about would be up in arms, because suddenly their traditional culture is illegal.

Please, justify this for us.

America was planned to be a monoculture, remember the term "melting pot" where everyone was supposed to meld their cultures into a homogenous mass with everyone else's, thus creating a hybridized, American culture.

Unfortunately, thanks to the general ennui of the people, no one seems to like that idea.

Allow me to quote from a fictional reporter on the monoculture:

We live in a monoculture.

What does that mean? Well, go out to your street corner. You'll probably see a Long Pig stand, SPKF on a screen somewhere, an Angry Boy Dylan's Gun Store. You'll go into a record store and see new recordings by the usual suspects, maybe a special Space Culture display rack.

Go out onto a streetcorner in London and you'll see the same thing. Same in Prague. Same in Sao Paulo. Same in Osaka, and Grozny, and Tehran, and Jo'burg, and Hobart.

That's what a monoculture is. It's everywhere, and it's all the same. And it takes up alien cultures and digests them and shits them out in a homogeneous building-block shape that fits seamlessly into the vast blank wall of the monoculture.

This is the future. This is what we built. This is what we wanted. It must have been. Because we all had the fucking choice, didn't we? It is only our money that allows commercial culture to flower. If we didn't want to live like this, we could have changed it any time, by not fucking paying for it.

So let's celebrate by all going out and buying the same burger.

Well, he's right in a sense. We've got McDonalds in every country (even a country that says cows are sacred), Coca-Cola on every screen, albums from new artists and established artists that sound like other artists or previous work, it's all shit (with very few notable exceptions).

Do you think that it isn't a monoculture, well you may be right for a while. But this whole "Individual nations with their own cultures" thing won't last much longer.

To quote Pirates of the Caribbean 2: "The world is getting smaller, the edges of the map have been filled in."

[Stopper]

Luke 10: 29 - 37
He asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

What do you think Jay?

[hulmey]

i think its a load of shit..........

Go help a strange now and you probably stabbed/shot or the like. This is 2007 mate!!!!!!

[Guiscard]

... Multi-Culturalism does not work. Now I make no claim at being expert on the subject, but I pay attention to what is happening at home in the states, and around the world. Take a good hard look at London and Paris... and see what Multi-Culturalism does for a nation. One has to wonder why it is your government is trying to PAY all the Afghan refugees who fled the Taliban, to go back to Afghanistan. ... Let me recommend a good book: It's called Londonistan. Explains how the idea of multi-culturalsim and cultural relativism is leading to the complete breakdown of London.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londonistan_(book)

... Divided loyalties lead to strife and conflict. I almost gag saying something so incredibly hokey as this, but... "United We Stand". ... you probably know the rest.

... Now I wait for the inevitable... to be labeled a racist, or perhaps a fascist. Well, you're not American, (at least your IP address isn't) so you probably have more creative comebacks.

... for what it's worth.

Stopper picked up on this a little, but I'd like to expand upon it...

Firstly, Multiculturalism hasn't ruined London, or England as a whole! Our immigrant communities are an essential part of our nation and all but the more extreme right-wing bigots celebrate that. Our favourite national dish is Curry, for one! Multiculturalism has far from ruined London. To imagine a Britain without Indian, Pakistani, Chinese, Afro-Caribbean, African etc. etc. people takes the sole out of our country! We certainly have social and economic problems focussing especially on the working classes, but this is routed in problems with the system not the people generally. The book you mentioned has been widely slated. It is crap, to be honest with you. You can find reactionary extremist books to support any viewpoint.

Moving on to Paris, to say that France itself promotes Multiculturalism betrays a significant lack of education or even general knowledge! France has been fairly militantly anti-multicultural for decades! Immigrants may speak no language but French, the wearing of religious dress in schools is banned... You assimilate into French culture, and there is no other choice. The riots and dissent throughout France may be a product of this attitude, but it is certainly not a product of multiculturalism. There was a reasonable discussion about this in another thread, but I can't find it now.

Do a little reading first next time.

[ritz627]

i think its a load of shit..........

Go help a strange now and you probably stabbed/shot or the like. This is 2007 mate!!!!!!

Whether you are kidding or not...you have, again, a bleak view on the rest of humanity.

[MeDeFe]

"First, to destroy America, turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country." History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way:
"The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy. Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans. Spain has Basques."

What about Finland and Switzerland then? 3 languages in each country and no groups violently fighting for independence. Yes, the countries he mentioned have difficulties, but that does not mean all multilingual countries do or will face such problems.

[ritz627]

In Malta the illegal immigrants are exaclty that Illegal. They are not allowed to work and are rounded up and kept in Army type barracks waiting to be shipped back to their home or face a tribunal/trial. This tribunal/trial decides if they should be given Refugee status

They come here either fleeing persceution or a better life. Some day die on their journey but here it is a huge problem becuase Malta is the Gateway to Europe.

If someone breaks the law they deserve the punishment of the law. For example; im a American citizen and have no job and no education and i break into your house and stay their without your permission there , would you like it.

I have nothing against Immigrants just the Illegal variety. Oh and they are called Illegal for a reason and if they pay taxes like you say im sure the American goverment would find them rather easily and depart them straight back home.

I don't know if you ever had a job where you don't get paid under the table, but if you ever have, you would know that you pay a tax with every paycheck for social security and such. Even though they are here illegally, you must at least recognize the situation that they are in, or were in. If you are against them still, realize that it would be virtually impossible to just round all of them up and send them back, and it would be devastating to the American economy to do so. You cannot stop people from coming here, and you will never be able to send them back.

[jay_a2j]

Luke 10: 29 - 37
He asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

What do you think Jay?

I think that this parable has nothing to do with illegal immigration. Its about helping a person out who needs it. Its about not discriminating. It isn't about letting people break the law. To say this parable addresses illegal immigration is like saying this parable says its ok to steal food when you are hungry.

[ritz627]

I think that this parable has nothing to do with illegal immigration. Its about helping a person out who needs it.

And how is that not related to illegal immigration?

[jay_a2j]

I think that this parable has nothing to do with illegal immigration. Its about helping a person out who needs it.

And how is that not related to illegal immigration?

So what? America should just take in ALL people who are in need? Forgo our own laws? Why doesn't Mexico help their own people?

[Nobunaga]

It might be better to recommend books not written by far right-wing lunatics. For example, I don't think any sane person would recommend Godless by Ann Coulter to get an idea of the state of America today.

I've a suspicion that most Londoners would not agree with the idea that London is heading towards a complete breakdown.

.... Well, Stopper, as you're from the island, I'll take your word for it (as I said, I'm no expert, to be sure). It was a frightening read, nonetheless.

...

[Nobunaga]

Firstly, Multiculturalism hasn't ruined London, or England as a whole! Our immigrant communities are an essential part of our nation and all but the more extreme right-wing bigots celebrate that. Our favourite national dish is Curry, for one! Multiculturalism has far from ruined London. To imagine a Britain without Indian, Pakistani, Chinese, Afro-Caribbean, African etc. etc. people takes the sole out of our country! We certainly have social and economic problems focussing especially on the working classes, but this is routed in problems with the system not the people generally. The book you mentioned has been widely slated. It is crap, to be honest with you. You can find reactionary extremist books to support any viewpoint.

Moving on to Paris, to say that France itself promotes Multiculturalism betrays a significant lack of education or even general knowledge! France has been fairly militantly anti-multicultural for decades! Immigrants may speak no language but French, the wearing of religious dress in schools is banned... You assimilate into French culture, and there is no other choice. The riots and dissent throughout France may be a product of this attitude, but it is certainly not a product of multiculturalism. There was a reasonable discussion about this in another thread, but I can't find it now.

Do a little reading first next time.

... Ya know... I'm embarrassed by my lack of research, but more for my speaking without knowing. But that's alright.

... You appear to be correct sir. So why is it the folks of Paris are burning something like 50 cars a night on average? Anger at this policy? And I have to ask of the Brits, doesn't the sight of kids running around with "I Love Osama" T-Shirts raise your concerns? (I have the sneaking suspicion I'm going to hear that you've never actually seen such... we'll see). 40% of young Islamic men in the British Isles approve of suicide bombings? ... (got that from Drudge, saw another that said 50% on MSNBC... while it's 25% in America).

... Are these folks legal immigrants to Brittain? I honestly don't know.

... Thank God 80% of the illegals in the US are Catholics, eh.

... (side note on the curry - saw an Indian on TV said he couldn't recognize what he saw in London as curry... adapted to British tastes, I suppose).

...

[ritz627]

I think that this parable has nothing to do with illegal immigration. Its about helping a person out who needs it.

And how is that not related to illegal immigration?

So what? America should just take in ALL people who are in need? Forgo our own laws? Why doesn't Mexico help their own people?

Well first, Mexico can't. I'm sure if they wanted to become a properous nation they would. Second, what you are saying isn't very christian. Hypothetically, if we were truly interested in spreading our democratic ideals, we would help Mexico out. It would not only create a strong democratic foot-hold in central america, and would help solve this illegal immigrant problem, now wouldn't it? It is clear that America goes into countries for its own benefit and nothing else. It only pays the cost if it knows that there is some greater benefit towards them. We claim to want to help others out, but we don't. The American government is hardly doing anything where it needs to if it is looking to help others out. If we were, we would offer more humanitarian aid in places like Africa, but we do not. But then again, what government isn't corrupt?

And as I have mentioned before: "Even though they are here illegally, you must at least recognize the situation that they are in, or were in. If you are against them still, realize that it would be virtually impossible to just round all of them up and send them back, and it would be devastating to the American economy to do so. You cannot stop people from coming here, and you will never be able to send them back." Wether they are illegally here or not, you will never be able to get rid of them. So I ask you again, have illegal immigrants ever had a negative impact on your life? If America preaches its democratic ideals across the world, why don't we practice them in our own country?

[hulmey]

Not only that they have parades in London/England seeking the destruction of the country that took them in. WTF!!!!

I think the other guy is missing the point.

Illegal Immigrants DO NOT PAY TAXES.....

Imagine for a second they did pay taxes, it would be quite easy to round them all because the government would know where they are working!!!