BLM, tool of the Marxist

[mookiemcgee]

In regards to redlining. It might be illegal now, but it went on for more than a generation (which I equate to meaning 30 years +) and it's a large part of why black neighborhoods in large cities like Chicago have stayed poor. And it's alot more than just a single family and their ability to get a loan. i don't agree with everything in this video but it illustrates the argument of folks who disagree with the idea that ''There is no systemic racist bias'

I think that there has been (at minimum in the past) institutionalized racial bias in America. As the video shows, it's not just your ability to get a home loan, but your whole communities ability to get funding for parks,schools ect. All of which contributes to higher crime rates (due to pov't and low 'quality of life')



In regards to single family homes in black communities. While it's obviously a mix of many reasons, I would suggest again this is not really an issue of race but of class/wealth. ALL of the three things you highlighted:

There are three main key life choices that extremely increase any individuals chances to not be impoverished in your lifetime:

Graduate High School, or get your GED - You can say this is a choice, but going to a school that doesn't have books from the last 40 years, no tutors, no support systems it affects your chances of being succesful in these things. So it's a choice, but there are alot of other factors and the choice isn't the same for everyone.

Waiting to get married until you are out of your teens and/or not having children out of wedlock- frankly if you are a broke guy who can't get a job or credit would being married really hold you any more accountable? Legally the answer is no, socially your community might hold you more accountable.

Having a full-time job - again, a choice but greatly affected socioeconomic circumstance. The white suburban kid has the joint taken away, the black inner city kid is arrested, now has a criminal record and would have a harder time finding a 'good' job. Maybe you don't believe this occurs, but my life experience tells me this is the norm not the exception. Is this a race problem or a pov't problem? I would argue pov't is the bigger factor and not race. but 'life choices' are part in parcel of who you are as a person. the person you are is greatly affected by the socioeconomic conditions of your childhood. Saying it's a choice to be well educated, with a great job .... you won't hear alot of poor inner city people from any racial background defending that argument.

As far as the last part... Are people in Seattle gov't crazy? Yes. Should that illicit a federal response... I still lean no. time+ local elections would be my preferred solution. I'm quazi ok with national guard presence in states, i'm 100% against the army or any other part of the military ever pointing guns at any Americans.

[Jdsizzleslice]

In regards to redlining. It might be illegal now, but it went on for more than a generation (which I equate to meaning 30 years +) and it's a large part of why black neighborhoods in large cities like Chicago have stayed poor. And it's alot more than just a single family and their ability to get a loan. i don't agree with everything in this video but it illustrates the argument of folks who disagree with the idea that ''There is no systemic racist bias'

I think that there has been (at minimum in the past) institutionalized racial bias in America. As the video shows, it's not just your ability to get a home loan, but your whole communities ability to get funding for parks,schools ect. All of which contributes to higher crime rates (due to pov't and low 'quality of life')

Redlining did exist and institutional racism did exist before the Civil Rights Act, and after it took a few years for things to change completely. Today, however, I don't think institutional racism or systemic racism exists. I'd have to do more research into redlining, but on that subject, I think it's also important to identify who or what group of people was making the decisions for redlining, if it was allowed to continue for such a very long time.

All that aside, Ben Shapiro makes a rebuttal to the same video that you mention, making some good points that I agree with.

In regards to single family homes in black communities. While it's obviously a mix of many reasons, I would suggest again this is not really an issue of race but of class/wealth. ALL of the three things you highlighted:
This is mainly why I see this is a cultural issue more than a racial one. There are three main key life choices that extremely increase any individuals chances to not be impoverished in your lifetime:

Graduate High School, or get your GED
Waiting to get married until you are out of your teens and/or not having children out of wedlock
Having a full-time job

I agree that it isn't an issue of race. I can see the argument of why someone on the surface would attributed this issue to class/wealth, but all people at some point make or do not make these key life choices, regardless of what class they are in. That's why a large majority of millionaires today in the US started with nothing are millionaires now (coining the term "self-made"), because of the choices they made during their life that opened them up for opportunities to gain wealth. That's why I see this as an issue of choice within a culture not choice within a status of class or wealth.

[mookiemcgee]

Like I said I don't agree with everything in the video... but in his first chime in he basically acknowledges redlining is/was an issue, and then blames a political party. I would simply argue the damage was 'already done' during the generations when it did occur.

Other arguments he makes that I don't agree with:
he says there is economic mobility in USA (if you grand parents were poor, you could become rich and vice versa). The facts do not support this as he claims, regardless of race economic mobility has steadily gone down over the last 60 years. I realize it's a single source here, and there are probably plenty of counter charts but it's worth looking at: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detai ... ir-country

The basic assumption most Americans have that they can move from low to high income based solely on making good choices and working hard... well it's less true than they think it is, and it's now easier to achieve this in France and England than it is in the USA. There is lots of nuance here, it is still very possible to move from middle to high, or vice versa (I'm saying your argument about being self made only applies to people who start in the middle class, not in the lower class). But the prospects of moving from low income to luxury mansion in the hills... well that's not supported by data at all and I would challenge you to prove me wrong on that one.

What does starting with nothing mean, it's kind of a soft term open to interpretation. Trump calls himself a self made man...He has made plenty of claims that he didn't inherit his fortune. Basically the rich have found inheritance to be very inefficient from a tax perspective (because of the so called death tax). There are alot of ways around that, such as loaning money to your children with highly favorable terms or hiding money overseas in a place where it can be passed on after death without uncle sam taking 40% of it.

[Jdsizzleslice]

Like I said I don't agree with everything in the video... but in his first chime in he basically acknowledges redlining is/was an issue, and then blames a political party. I would simply argue the damage was 'already done' during the generations when it did occur.

If it was an issue back then, then what have the current powers at be done to change the effect of it? I would argue that if redlining was done generations ago, not much has done to help fix it today, based on what I have seen.

Other arguments he makes that I don't agree with:
he says there is economic mobility in USA (if you grand parents were poor, you could become rich and vice versa). The facts do not support this as he claims, regardless of race economic mobility has steadily gone down over the last 60 years. I realize it's a single source here, and there are probably plenty of counter charts but it's worth looking at: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detai ... ir-country

The basic assumption most Americans have that they can move from low to high income based solely on making good choices and working hard... well it's less true than they think it is, and it's now easier to achieve this in France and England than it is in the USA. There is lots of nuance here, it is still very possible to move from middle to high, or vice versa (I'm saying your argument about being self made only applies to people who start in the middle class, not in the lower class). But the prospects of moving from low income to luxury mansion in the hills... well that's not supported by data at all and I would challenge you to prove me wrong on that one.

What does starting with nothing mean, it's kind of a soft term open to interpretation. Trump calls himself a self made man...He has made plenty of claims that he didn't inherit his fortune. Basically the rich have found inheritance to be very inefficient from a tax perspective (because of the so called death tax). There are alot of ways around that, such as loaning money to your children with highly favorable terms or hiding money overseas in a place where it can be passed on after death without uncle sam taking 40% of it.

Started with nothing, as in inherited none of their wealth, as in did not receive any inheritance from their parents or family.

The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of America's Wealthy by by Thomas J. Stanley and William D. Danko, written in 1996, finds that 80% of millionaires earned their cash by their own doing.

A more recent study of over 10K millionaires by Dave Ramsey, done in 2019, finds that 79% of millionaires earned their cash by their own doing.

Ramsey Solutions findings also state that "according to the survey, eight out of 10 millionaires come from families at or below middle-income level."

This echoes my point: that a high majority of millionaires today are earned instead of being born into it. Meaning, this is not about demographics or socioeconomics, but instead about the choices people make in their lives to get to a wealthy place.

Race, gender, religion, family structure, location, demographics, socioeconomics, etc. are definitely an important part of one's environment and viewpoint but should not dictate nor excuse the choices an individual makes; instead, that is up to the individual themselves to decide what choices they will make. My ultimate point is that we are responsible for the outcome of our lives, and that's the main basis for my argument in these past few posts in this topic.

[mookiemcgee]

Like I said I don't agree with everything in the video... but in his first chime in he basically acknowledges redlining is/was an issue, and then blames a political party. I would simply argue the damage was 'already done' during the generations when it did occur.

If it was an issue back then, then what have the current powers at be done to change the effect of it? I would argue that if redlining was done generations ago, not much has done to help fix it today, based on what I have seen.

I would agree not much has been done. my larger point was that it is something people will point to as institutionalized racism.

Other arguments he makes that I don't agree with:
he says there is economic mobility in USA (if you grand parents were poor, you could become rich and vice versa). The facts do not support this as he claims, regardless of race economic mobility has steadily gone down over the last 60 years. I realize it's a single source here, and there are probably plenty of counter charts but it's worth looking at: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detai ... ir-country

The basic assumption most Americans have that they can move from low to high income based solely on making good choices and working hard... well it's less true than they think it is, and it's now easier to achieve this in France and England than it is in the USA. There is lots of nuance here, it is still very possible to move from middle to high, or vice versa (I'm saying your argument about being self made only applies to people who start in the middle class, not in the lower class). But the prospects of moving from low income to luxury mansion in the hills... well that's not supported by data at all and I would challenge you to prove me wrong on that one.

What does starting with nothing mean, it's kind of a soft term open to interpretation. Trump calls himself a self made man...He has made plenty of claims that he didn't inherit his fortune. Basically the rich have found inheritance to be very inefficient from a tax perspective (because of the so called death tax). There are alot of ways around that, such as loaning money to your children with highly favorable terms or hiding money overseas in a place where it can be passed on after death without uncle sam taking 40% of it.

Started with nothing, as in inherited none of their wealth, as in did not receive any inheritance from their parents or family.

The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of America's Wealthy by by Thomas J. Stanley and William D. Danko, written in 1996, finds that 80% of millionaires earned their cash by their own doing.

A more recent study of over 10K millionaires by Dave Ramsey, done in 2019, finds that 79% of millionaires earned their cash by their own doing.

Ramsey Solutions findings also state that "according to the survey, eight out of 10 millionaires come from families at or below middle-income level."

This echoes my point: that a high majority of millionaires today are earned instead of being born into it. Meaning, this is not about demographics or socioeconomics, but instead about the choices people make in their lives to get to a wealthy place.

Race, gender, religion, family structure, location, demographics, socioeconomics, etc. are definitely an important part of one's environment and viewpoint but should not dictate nor excuse the choices an individual makes; instead, that is up to the individual themselves to decide what choices they will make. My ultimate point is that we are responsible for the outcome of our lives, and that's the main basis for my argument in these past few posts in this topic.

I agree we are responsible for our choices and the outcomes that come about from them. I'm suggesting the choices presented to poor black people with no assets, no credit, and really very little hope, are very different from the choices of a suburban middle class asian person.

I think most important to this thread is can lower class move up, or is there institutional bias' preventing them from doing so and neither of your sources take this on. They lump middle in with lower in order to avoid it.

[jimboston]

Do I agree with the movement "Black Lives Matter?" No.

They advocate that there is systemic racism in the United States (and in other countries as well). Systemic racism doesn't exist in the United States (and for that matter, basically most Western-style countries), because individuals are free to make choices as to how they want their life to be shaped.

Maybe you don’t wanna call it systemic racism... fine.

There absolutely is systemic bias.
You can’t debate it. Math is math, facts are facts.

You can debate the CAUSE(S) of this systemic bias.... but you can’t debate its’ existence.

... of course if you wanna put all the blame for the causes on “individual choices” or “the black community” or “lack of black family values”... well that’s just ignorant. I might agree there are contributing or multiplying factors... or I might say some of those things are themselves symptoms and not causes... but if those do not encompass the full picture.

Absolutely incorrect. There is no systemic racist bias. Are you suggesting there is only a systemic bias against black people? What about the many other ethnicity groups that are in the US?

Other groups experience systemic bias, but it is definitely worst for African Americans / Black Americans.

What about the fact that black people commit more violent crimes, and therefore have more violent encounters with law enforcement?

This is true, and individuals make decisions.
At the same time it’s a symptom of economic and educational bias.

What about the fact that close to 70% of black children are raised by single parents, and don't have the support of both a mother and father to help teach them the difference between wrong and right?

Same answer... it is a cause that perpetuates the cycle, but it’s also a symptom of economic bias.

What about the fact that in a majority all of the cities that have large violent crime percentages, 30% to 50% of the population is black?

Symptom.

You need to accept the fact that most of your issues are, AT LEAST IN PART, symptoms NOT root causes.
If you can’t accept this you aren’t likely to contribute to a ‘solution’ (if there is one)... and in order to have a solute need to get the vast majority of Americans to recognize the true issues.

What about the fact that a majority of these violent crimes are committed in cities that are essentially have all Democrat control in every aspect of politics, and have been for decades (Chicago, New York, Detroit, Baltimore, Los Angeles, etc.)?

Irrelevant, if even true.

Democrats aren’t the cause. They aren’t, or haven’t been, the solution either.
Neither are the Republicans.
They have both either ignored the problems, and/or implemented policies that have exacerbated the problems.

Just to be clear... I don’t propose a larger ‘welfare state’... I think many of the things Democrats (and “Black Leadership”) have pushed for just makes things worse. You need to teach a man to fish, not give him fish.

There is no systemic bias if nearly half of the violent crime is committed by an ethnicity that makes up only 10% to 15% of the population. These percentages come directly from the US Census and the FBI Crime Report statistics. Political breakdown of the largest cities is public knowledge.

If you’re born into poverty, and you have subpar education, and upper & middle class people look down on you / feel sorry for you... while giving mentorship, jobs, opportunities to people in their own class and of their own race... then yeah, you’re way way more likely to live “outside” respectable society. That leads to a higher likelihood that you will have negative interactions with the police/legal system... which itself is biased against you.

Yeah... then these biases are ‘confirmed’ because people of your color are more likely to have negative interactions with police.

... and so the cycle continues.

We can agree that there needs to be police reform, to some degree.

Good.

However, to claim that there is a systemic bias for or against any single ethnicity is factually untrue.

I just explained to you how you are mistaken. Please read what I typed with an open mind.

Personal responsibility is how you either progress or regress as an individual. It saddens me to see such a high percentage of a community that lack a normal family structure. Families need fathers in the home. If fathers leave their homes or do not help raise their children, they contribute to the regression of society, as depicted in the above questions.

This is true... personal responsibility is an issue. At the same time, statistically the numbers don’t lie.

African Americans are more likely (percentage wise) to be born into poverty. They are more likely (yes) to live in a home with no father. They don’t get the education that whites get.. statistically white people are more likely to go to better schools etc.

They are more likely to have negative interactions with law enforcement as young kids and therefore wind up with a bad attitude/bad expectation when interacting with police. This also makes police more wary and have more negative attitudes towards black men in particular.

Their social groups and social interactions are more likely to be with lower-income / less-educated people... which prevents them form social and business opportunities that are more available to white people.

All these things pile on... and that is the system... and it’s harder to ge out of the cycle.
NOT impossible... people do achieve and excel... but systemically African Americans are statistically at a disadvantage.

Together, let's work to change the US culture as a whole, for all ethnicities, and promote a healthy upbringing for children by advocating that fathers and mothers NEED to help raise their children to better society. The breakdown in the family will become the breakdown of a society.

I agree. This is definitely PART of the solution.

[Jdsizzleslice]

mookie at least provided causation and potential solutions in his posts, but you have yet to give any proof as to why there is systemic racism, jim. How about you provide a main argument before trying to destroy mine with zero substantive evidence?

I agree we are responsible for our choices and the outcomes that come about from them. I'm suggesting the choices presented to poor black people with no assets, no credit, and really very little hope, are very different from the choices of a suburban middle class asian person.

I think most important to this thread is can lower class move up, or is there institutional bias' preventing them from doing so and neither of your sources take this on. They lump middle in with lower in order to avoid it.

Can you clarify what you mean by choices presented? I want to fully understand what you're trying to say instead of trying to infer that point.

You're right in that both sources presented in the previous post don't specifically point out systemic or institutional racism. I was trying to make a conjoining point about choice leading to wealth. I do believe the lower class can move up by making the right choices. They may not become millionaires, but they can attain a better lifestyle than where they currently are.

The other parallel to millionaires, specifically, is that 80% of millionaires are first-generation millionaires. What does this say about the offspring or inheritors of them? This may suggest that they inherit a large amount of money and make wrong choices and are left with a fraction of what they started with. I know, causation and causality, but one can't help but wonder if, financially, one's mindset is more important than how much they have in the bank.

[mookiemcgee]

I'm sorry guys, but 'change the culture' has become such an empty hollow corporate rallying cry of a phrase that it makes me gag anytime someone uses it . So I can't agree with either of you on that... Change attitudes, ok i guess... change policy, sure let's do it... change culture? The US can't agree on what it's culture is or should be so who decides how it changes? Trump? BLM? ANTIFA? I feel like the USA is talking itself into a culture war with the world cheering it on.

As my friend Bryan recently said "The world is acting like we've been allowed to measure our own cocktails for several months, and it's really starting to show"

How about we don't change everything! there is an argument to make big changes, there is an argument to keep things the same (or regress to where they were in the recent past). Let's just make it so cops who kill people through obviously negligent behavior, can't avoid prosecution. That's all we really need to do today, we don't need to 'change the culture of America' Will it solve systemic racism? No, but the country is only 50/50 on if systemic racism actually exists!

[jimboston]

mookie at least provided causation and potential solutions in his posts, but you have yet to give any proof as to why there is systemic racism, jim. How about you provide a main argument before trying to destroy mine with zero substantive evidence?

So nice.

I was actually gonna just compliment you two on a friendly conversation.
I typed my post before reading Mookies and basically I’m saying the same thing he’s saying.

I don’t see any “proof” he’s providing... I believe my response was a bit shorthand, but I’m pretty sure the points are made.
I very rarely get accused of typing/speaking too little.

BTW... I’m not here to prove “why” there is systemic racism. I’m just pointing out that there is.

sys·tem·ic
/səˈstemik/
1. relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part.

... from the moment an African American is born they are (as compared to a European American) much more likely to be poor and come from a broken family, and live in a low-income area.

Right out of the gate this puts them at a disadvantage.

Not individually. There are poor white people too... and they have a rough time also. I’m not minimizing that.

This starting line disadvantage compounds.... with negative interactions with authority, with reduced opportunity, etc.

This then leads to poorer outcomes.

This perpetuates the cycle to the next generation.

These are statistics... the very statistics you use to condemn “the African American culture” are the same statistics that demonstrate the systemic bias.

Do these stats exist in a vacuum? No.
Can individuals overcome these roadblocks? Yes
... but because these facts exist a higher percentage of African Americans have worse outcomes.
That’s the RESULT of the systemic bias.

[Jdsizzleslice]

I'm sorry guys, but 'change the culture' has become such an empty hollow corporate rallying cry of a phrase that it makes me gag anytime someone uses it . So I can't agree with either of you on that... Change attitudes, ok i guess... change policy, sure let's do it... change culture? The US can't agree on what it's culture is or should be so who decides how it changes? Trump? BLM? ANTIFA? I feel like the USA is talking itself into a culture war with the world cheering it on.

How about we don't change everything! there is an argument to make big changes, there is an argument to keep things the same (or regress to where they were in the recent past). Let's just make it so cops who kill people through obviously negligent behavior, can't avoid prosecution. That's all we really need to do today, we don't need to 'change the culture of America' Will it solve systemic racism? No, but the country is only 50/50 on if systemic racism actually exists!

I agree, changing culture is sometimes an empty shell of what it could be. Not to mention the US is a nation that is so diverse. People who immigrate or who have immigrated have brought their cultures with them, and that is ok. What I mean by changing culture is not changing ethnic culture necessarily, but more of an ideological culture about how extremely important the family is and the freedom to choose the path you want your life to follow.

And I agree, police who kill people unjustifiably should be held accountable, and if we can fix this for right now, we are definitely headed in the right direction. And while I agree that there are a small number of people who are racist, and I disagree that there is systemic racism in large part, it's good that we can have a rational discussion from both sides and discuss our main arguments, and why we think the way we do without tearing each other down. And for that, mookie, I am appreciative of.

In the long term, I think we should work slowly to help bring the family back together in this society, and emphasize the individual as "American" and how they want to accomplish their dream, and not pidgeon-hole them into an identity or group. Just my personal thoughts.

[riskllama]

*pigeon

[Jdsizzleslice]

So nice.

I was actually gonna just compliment you two on a friendly conversation.
I typed my post before reading Mookies and basically I’m saying the same thing he’s saying.

I don’t see any “proof” he’s providing... I believe my response was a bit shorthand, but I’m pretty sure the points are made.
I very rarely get accused of typing/speaking too little.

BTW... I’m not here to prove “why” there is systemic racism. I’m just pointing out that there is.

I consider myself nice in general, and brash where I feel like I need to be. Probably not what a lot of people think, and I don't really care, but I digress...

Even though mookie and I don't agree on some talking points, we have been able to bring up statistics, articles, studies, videos, etc. to discuss what our viewpoint is on the matter and why we believe it. You have not provided any of these things thusfar.

sys·tem·ic
/səˈstemik/
1. relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part.

... from the moment an African American is born they are (as compared to a European American) much more likely to be poor and come from a broken family, and live in a low-income area.

Right out of the gate this puts them at a disadvantage.

Not individually. There are poor white people too... and they have a rough time also. I’m not minimizing that.

This starting line disadvantage compounds.... with negative interactions with authority, with reduced opportunity, etc.

This then leads to poorer outcomes.

This perpetuates the cycle to the next generation.

Blanket statements put holes in your argument because it is unclear as to what you are really trying to say.
Are you saying when "an African American is born" referring to all African Americans?

Have you considered the population density as to where black people are more statistically likely to be born/live and where they experience encounters with police the most?
Have you considered the reason as to why more encounters with police happen in larger cities in the US?
Why make a comparison to just European Americans, and why not compare against all ethnic Americans, like Asians, Jewish, Arabic, Latino, Native American, etc.?

I agree that not everyone has the same starting line in life. That's what I would consider equality. However, any person has the ability to make their life what they want to in the US. That's what I would consider equal opportunity.

These are statistics... the very statistics you use to condemn “the African American culture” are the same statistics that demonstrate the systemic bias.

Do these stats exist in a vacuum? No.
Can individuals overcome these roadblocks? Yes
... but because these facts exist a higher percentage of African Americans have worse outcomes.
That’s the RESULT of the systemic bias.

You provide no statistics, no evidence at all to back up your claims. How can you expect to have a logical discussion if you can't properly form your own argument? Just saying something exists doesn't make it so.

And show me where I condemn any ethnic group. I don't. I recognize that there is a problem and that it needs to be fixed over time. We probably just disagree on what the solution is, and the fact that you would say I condemn an ethic group is deplorable.

[jimboston]

You provide no statistics, no evidence at all to back up your claims.

You write numbers but didn’t provide links.

The SAME STATISTICS you bring up... are the same stats that DEMONSTRATE the bias.

You’re saying these things are causes... I’m saying they’re not really causes, but more likely symptoms.

And show me where I condemn any ethnic group. I don't. I recognize that there is a problem and that it needs to be fixed over time. We probably just disagree on what the solution is, and the fact that you would say I condemn an ethic group is deplorable.

I don’t say you condemn them in the sense that you personally are racist.

I may have used the word condemn in the sense that you/society condemns future African American generations to this problem into perpetuity by ignoring it AND/OR not admitting the underlying systemic bias.

[Jdsizzleslice]

You write numbers but didn’t provide links.

The SAME STATISTICS you bring up... are the same stats that DEMONSTRATE the bias.

You’re saying these things are causes... I’m saying they’re not really causes, but more likely symptoms.

I don't provide links but I do cite my sources as the US Census and FBI Crime Statistics... Public Information that is easily researchable...

So the US Federal Government, which compiles these statistics, is now as a whole systemically racist? Please.

Also, you say these are symptoms not causes. What are the causes that prove your argument? You have yet to provide any.

I don’t say you condemn them in the sense that you personally are racist.

I may have used the word condemn in the sense that you/society condemns future African American generations to this problem into perpetuity by ignoring it AND/OR not admitting the underlying systemic bias.

These are statistics... the very statistics you use to condemn “the African American culture” are the same statistics that demonstrate the systemic bias.

You literally use the phrase above, suggesting that I condemn "the African American culture." Are you using "you" in the sense of more than one person? It still doesn't make your statement any more clear, and certainly doesn't clarify your above point, because using "you" will also include me, which in the context you originally said, still basically says that I condemn the African American culture.

I also literally said that there is a problem with crime in my last post. How is that me ignoring the problem or perpetuating the problem? We just disagree on what needs to be done to solve it, but you can't seem to provide any solutions as to how to fix it.

And again, provide any substantive evidence as to what you think is systemically racist. You have provided nil. Just saying there is systemic racism doesn't mean that your claim is true unless you actually back it up, as mookie has done in his posts.

[Dukasaur]

A more recent study of over 10K millionaires by Dave Ramsey, done in 2019, finds that 79% of millionaires earned their cash by their own doing.

Ramsey Solutions findings also state that "according to the survey, eight out of 10 millionaires come from families at or below middle-income level."

This echoes my point: that a high majority of millionaires today are earned instead of being born into it. Meaning, this is not about demographics or socioeconomics, but instead about the choices people make in their lives to get to a wealthy place.

I checked out the article. He calls it a "study" but I fail to find any of the hallmarks of a study -- most importantly, a discussion of methodology of how the data was collected. I tend to be skeptical. People's incomes and investments are largely confidential and people tend to be very protective of their financial data. How did the data get assembled? I can't think of any publicly available source for it. If it was based on a survey (and he does use the word "survey" a couple of times) then how did he check the validity of the survey? If it was entirely self-reported, then red flags go up right away. People tend to be rather generous when evaluating themselves. How do we know that the people who claim to not have had any help from dad really didn't?

I clicked on the link that said "Full Study (PDF)" expecting to find more information such as the source of the data, but that link didn't really say anything other than what the first link had. No discussion of where the data came from or how it was verified was given.

Anyway, I'm highly suspicious, and I think you should consider how the data was collected before taking it at face value. But nit-picking about that isn't my primary goal here.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume the study is true. One of the first statements on the first page is,

The top five careers for millionaires include engineer, accountant, teacher, management and attorney.

All five of these are professions that require not only a university degree, but a limited-seating university degree.

At the very least, I am suspicious that a lot of these self-proclaimed self-made men had, at the very least, some help from Mom and Dad or from Uncle Fred getting through university.

I would tend to think that even if they were in regular university programs. But the fact that they are in limited-seating professional programs, well, let's just say that definitely compounds the problem.

[betiko]

Do I agree with the statement "black lives matter?" Yes. Black lives do matter. You would be hard-pressed to find an individual that says that people of a certain ethnicity doesn't deserve to live just because of the color of their skin. And then even then, the percentage of people who have this viewpoint are an EXTREME minority (a fringe of a fringe of a fringe of a minority).

Do I agree with the movement "Black Lives Matter?" No. They advocate that there is systemic racism in the United States (and in other countries as well). Systemic racism doesn't exist in the United States (and for that matter, basically most Western-style countries), because individuals are free to make choices as to how they want their life to be shaped.

Choice and freedom are what shape our society. I fully support the right for speech and protest. When you take away free speech and start canceling others because they do not agree with your viewpoints, the cultural divide only widens. It's the standpoint of "Don't agree with us? Then you'll lose your job/possessions/etc."

Instead of participating in the widening of the division of our culture, let's come together and see how we can better a society, instead of screaming and shouting a list of demands.

I would agree with you but.... I do think there is a systemic problem between the police and black people in the US... and other western countries. I don't think it's by nature a matter of race but of probability. Black people have more chances to come from a dodgy neighborhood and to be from a lower socio demographic... so there is kind of a negative spiral for black people... they feel oppression for being black and turn it into a racist paranoia conspiracy, and for some, they judge people for being white.
But I'm pretty sure cops also have a higher tendency to arrest people dressed in a certain way that could suggest comming from certain socio-demographics.
Basically... poor people have more chances to commit crimes (let's take financial crimes, the ones the street police don't deal with) and police officers are incentivised for arresting criminals... so they obviously target the ones that are more likely to be criminals. Black people are not worse people than others, they are just majoritarly not born on the right side of the street. Take a white trash trailer park and you will probably find more criminality rate than in the hood.
People on both sides should just stop making this thing about race... no one should mention race. It creates racism on both sides. The root of the problem is socio-economics and the probability to find a criminal.
And yes, the US police is probably asked to do way too many tasks which ends up counter productive and they end up doing a lousy job. Also... the police trade unionists and sindicates are way too strong, bad apples are giving a terrible reputation for the entire forces; and criminal police officers should be judged like criminal citizens. I mean of course being a police officer you have more chances to f*ck up than being a civilian... it's not an excuse to let everything slide.
Citizens and officers need to put themselves a bit more in each other's shoes.

[jimboston]

What are the causes that prove your argument? You have yet to provide any.

It’s a feedback loop. The underlying causes are poverty and lack of opportunity.
Your biggest problem is you don;t seem to understand what systemic bias is.

You literally use the phrase above, suggesting that I condemn "the African American culture." Are you using "you" in the sense of more than one person? It still doesn't make your statement any more clear, and certainly doesn't clarify your above point, because using "you" will also include me, which in the context you originally said, still basically says that I condemn the African American culture.

You’re condemning African Americans to systemic poverty by your failure to acknowledge it.

I also literally said that there is a problem with crime in my last post. How is that me ignoring the problem or perpetuating the problem? We just disagree on what needs to be done to solve it, but you can't seem to provide any solutions as to how to fix it.

Do you understand the concept of Negative Feedback Loop?

[Jdsizzleslice]

He calls it a "study" but I fail to find any of the hallmarks of a study -- most importantly, a discussion of methodology of how the data was collected. I tend to be skeptical.

The research is behind $10 paywall. Yeah, I know, but I didn't use this source alone in making my point, and there are external articles written about people who do purchase the study and find it's findings to be extremely insightful.

I would agree with you but.... I do think there is a systemic problem between the police and black people in the US... and other western countries. I don't think it's by nature a matter of race but of probability. Black people have more chances to come from a dodgy neighborhood and to be from a lower socio demographic... so there is kind of a negative spiral for black people... they feel oppression for being black and turn it into a racist paranoia conspiracy, and for some, they judge people for being white.
But I'm pretty sure cops also have a higher tendency to arrest people dressed in a certain way that could suggest comming from certain socio-demographics.
Basically... poor people have more chances to commit crimes (let's take financial crimes, the ones the street police don't deal with) and police officers are incentivised for arresting criminals... so they obviously target the ones that are more likely to be criminals. Black people are not worse people than others, they are just majoritarly not born on the right side of the street. Take a white trash trailer park and you will probably find more criminality rate than in the hood.
People on both sides should just stop making this thing about race... no one should mention race. It creates racism on both sides. The root of the problem is socio-economics and the probability to find a criminal.
And yes, the US police is probably asked to do way too many tasks which ends up counter productive and they end up doing a lousy job. Also... the police trade unionists and sindicates are way too strong, bad apples are giving a terrible reputation for the entire forces; and criminal police officers should be judged like criminal citizens. I mean of course being a police officer you have more chances to f*ck up than being a civilian... it's not an excuse to let everything slide.
Citizens and officers need to put themselves a bit more in each other's shoes.

You make several good points here, some of which we should really focus on here to try and see if we can find a root cause/underlying issue.

Here are some topics of discussion as to some of your points:

• If black people are more likely to come from an impoverished area, in what cities are these areas more likely to exist?
• Who has made/generated policies in these cities? What changes have been made/not been made to try and help the community?
• If one police institution admitted to targeting impoverished areas of their city/area, would this be an isolated incident/exception or would this be common practice?
• Is more police training and police reform (in general) enough to help solve this immediate problem we have in the US?

What are the causes that prove your argument? You have yet to provide any.

It’s a feedback loop. The underlying causes are poverty and lack of opportunity.
Your biggest problem is you don;t seem to understand what systemic bias is.

You literally use the phrase above, suggesting that I condemn "the African American culture." Are you using "you" in the sense of more than one person? It still doesn't make your statement any more clear, and certainly doesn't clarify your above point, because using "you" will also include me, which in the context you originally said, still basically says that I condemn the African American culture.

You’re condemning African Americans to systemic poverty by your failure to acknowledge it.

I also literally said that there is a problem with crime in my last post. How is that me ignoring the problem or perpetuating the problem? We just disagree on what needs to be done to solve it, but you can't seem to provide any solutions as to how to fix it.

Do you understand the concept of Negative Feedback Loop?

Are you just trying to win an argument or are you actually wanting to discuss ideas by supporting your claims? I understand what systemic racism is, it's not a hard concept to grasp. Your biggest problem is that you STILL have provided no backing evidence to support your claim. And again, just saying "systemic racism is a feedback loop" without making an argument doesn't make it true.

[mookiemcgee]

What are the causes that prove your argument? You have yet to provide any.

It’s a feedback loop. The underlying causes are poverty and lack of opportunity.
Your biggest problem is you don;t seem to understand what systemic bias is.

You literally use the phrase above, suggesting that I condemn "the African American culture." Are you using "you" in the sense of more than one person? It still doesn't make your statement any more clear, and certainly doesn't clarify your above point, because using "you" will also include me, which in the context you originally said, still basically says that I condemn the African American culture.

You’re condemning African Americans to systemic poverty by your failure to acknowledge it.

I also literally said that there is a problem with crime in my last post. How is that me ignoring the problem or perpetuating the problem? We just disagree on what needs to be done to solve it, but you can't seem to provide any solutions as to how to fix it.

Do you understand the concept of Negative Feedback Loop?

Are you just trying to win an argument or are you actually wanting to discuss ideas by supporting your claims? I understand what systemic racism is, it's not a hard concept to grasp. Your biggest problem is that you STILL have provided no backing evidence to support your claim. And again, just saying "systemic racism is a feedback loop" without making an argument doesn't make it true.

I think you know this JD, but on the CC forum you can generally expect to hear from people who 'know they are right' and 'want to prove a point'. This whole forum is basically a debate team contest and very few want to engage with the goal of changing someones mind or learning something new. They just want to be 'right' and f*ck your beliefs. To me the goal of conversation isn't solely to prove I'm right, but to come to some kind of meaningful middle ground. Consensus is the basis of Democracy, and should be the goal of a healthy debate.

For instance, Jim can claim all he wants that it's simply a fact that there is systemic racism. It doesn't really accomplish anything except it alienates you (because of the way he phrases it) , but he will be able to feel he is right, and post his opinions as factual. The reality that should be clear from our debates is that it is an open question. The correlation is clearly there, but the causation he claims is fact is actually very much difficult to prove. It just gets back to the chicken and the egg issue. Are poor black communities committing more crime and therefore more actively policed, or are they more actively policed and therefore the crimes statistics are higher. Yes in America we are capitalist society, so inherently poor people have a harder time than the rich. Black people are collectively among the poorer populations. Is that systemic racism keeping them down, or do they have the same chance to make better choices and other factors are leading them to make poor choices which furthers their disenfranchisement. I have my opinions, but I respect that your POV is just as worthy of consideration.

[Jdsizzleslice]

I think you know this JD, but on the CC forum you can generally expect to hear from people who 'know they are right' and 'want to prove a point'. This whole forum is basically a debate team contest and very few want to engage with the goal of changing someones mind or learning something new. They just want to be 'right' and f*ck your beliefs. To me the goal of conversation isn't solely to prove I'm right, but to come to some kind of meaningful middle ground. Consensus is the basis of Democracy, and should be the goal of a healthy debate.

For instance, Jim can claim all he wants that it's simply a fact that there is systemic racism. It doesn't really accomplish anything except it alienates you (because of the way he phrases it) , but he will be able to feel he is right, and post his opinions as factual. The reality that should be clear from our debates is that it is an open question. The correlation is clearly there, but the causation he claims is fact is actually very much difficult to prove. It just gets back to the chicken and the egg issue. Are poor black communities committing more crime and therefore more actively policed, or are they more actively policed and therefore the crimes statistics are higher. Yes in America we are capitalist society, so inherently poor people have a harder time than the rich. Black people are collectively among the poorer populations. Is that systemic racism keeping them down, or do they have the same chance to make better choices and other factors are leading them to make poor choices which furthers their disenfranchisement. I have my opinions, but I respect that your POV is just as worthy of consideration.

There are really only a few who wish to engage in thoughtful discussion. I'm glad that you are one of those individuals.

[jimboston]

Are you just trying to win an argument or are you actually wanting to discuss ideas by supporting your claims? I understand what systemic racism is, it's not a hard concept to grasp. Your biggest problem is that you STILL have provided no backing evidence to support your claim. And again, just saying "systemic racism is a feedback loop" without making an argument doesn't make it true.

I’m pretty sure I not only made an argument, but also won it.

I’m sorry you’re not able to follow.

[jimboston]

For instance, Jim can claim all he wants that it's simply a fact that there is systemic racism. It doesn't really accomplish anything except it alienates you (because of the way he phrases it) , but he will be able to feel he is right, and post his opinions as factual.

I actually think I explain the whole problem pretty well.

I honestly don’t what he says I’m not explaining.

I didn’t give hard data... because the facts aren’t in dispute.

The only part of the debate that is in dispute is the causation. That part is debatable... but really we’ve had enough time go by to figure out that the pattern keeps getting repeated... and so the whole feedback loop isn’t really debatable. You can argue about what started the problem... but after generations, the initial cause is also kinda moot.

I also thought my initial post was friendly and pleasant... and my tone only changed when he jumped down my throat.


e’

I have my opinions, but I respect that your POV is just as worthy of consideration.

I respect other opinions too... and honestly I used to think much like JD, and I used to blame the “Family Values” of the African American community... which was/is a euphemism for the lack of fathers in the home.

... now I’m middle aged and have seen this stuff repeat itself enough that I think it’s obviously a bigger problem than a ‘daddy issue’... it’s a systemic problem... and if WHITE PEOPLE (like me) don’t admit that, then we’ll never take the necessary steps to solve it.

[jimboston]

I think you know this JD, but on the CC forum you can generally expect to hear from people who 'know they are right' and 'want to prove a point'. This whole forum is basically a debate team contest and very few want to engage with the goal of changing someones mind or learning something new. They just want to be 'right' and f*ck your beliefs. To me the goal of conversation isn't solely to prove I'm right, but to come to some kind of meaningful middle ground. Consensus is the basis of Democracy, and should be the goal of a healthy debate.

For instance, Jim can claim all he wants that it's simply a fact that there is systemic racism. It doesn't really accomplish anything except it alienates you (because of the way he phrases it) , but he will be able to feel he is right, and post his opinions as factual. The reality that should be clear from our debates is that it is an open question. The correlation is clearly there, but the causation he claims is fact is actually very much difficult to prove. It just gets back to the chicken and the egg issue. Are poor black communities committing more crime and therefore more actively policed, or are they more actively policed and therefore the crimes statistics are higher. Yes in America we are capitalist society, so inherently poor people have a harder time than the rich. Black people are collectively among the poorer populations. Is that systemic racism keeping them down, or do they have the same chance to make better choices and other factors are leading them to make poor choices which furthers their disenfranchisement. I have my opinions, but I respect that your POV is just as worthy of consideration.

There are really only a few who wish to engage in thoughtful discussion. I'm glad that you are one of those individuals.

... and f**k y*u both...

Look at my first post in this thread. Where or how is that rude in any way?

Look at my other posts. I am routinely in the center, and I am routinely attacked by people here on the far left of some issues, and the far right of others. Shit, sometimes I am attacked by both sides for a single post in the same thread.

[Jdsizzleslice]

Are you just trying to win an argument or are you actually wanting to discuss ideas by supporting your claims? I understand what systemic racism is, it's not a hard concept to grasp. Your biggest problem is that you STILL have provided no backing evidence to support your claim. And again, just saying "systemic racism is a feedback loop" without making an argument doesn't make it true.

I’m pretty sure I not only made an argument, but also won it.

I’m sorry you’re not able to follow.

Thank you for proving exactly my point. Mookie and me aren't trying to "win." We are trying to understand.

... and f**k y*u both...

Look at my first post in this thread. Where or how is that rude in any way?

Look at my other posts. I am routinely in the center, and I am routinely attacked by people here on the far left of some issues, and the far right of others. Shit, sometimes I am attacked by both sides for a single post in the same thread.

Never said you were rude, or insinuated anything remotely close to it. All I've said, and have been saying, is that in your arguments, you provide zero backing evidence to your claims. Zero studies, zero articles, zero statistics, zero findings, etc. Basically, all you are doing is just saying your opinion and just automatically accepting whatever you say as "fact." That's not how debate or understanding works!

OF COURSE! WE ARE TRYING TO HAVE A REASONABLE DISCUSSION! THIS IS BULL SH*T! (insert Cenk Uygur memes here).