Racist statues OPPOSED

[mrswdk]

As the people of the UK finally wake up to the fact their city centres are full of countless statues and memorials to genocidal murderers who built the UK's empire by unleashing a Genghis Khan-like wave of fury on the world, equal rights campaigners have begun targeting statues of genocidal racist maniac WInston Churchill:



Elsewhere, Tower Hamlets Council has removed a statue of a different racist maniac from its plinth in London's financial district:



https://www.cityam.com/tower-hamlets-re ... ve-trader/

And a statue of a different slave trader has been thrown in Bristol river in scenes reminiscent of the toppling of Saddam Hussein's statue by American-funded Iraqi running dogs:





https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-52962356

[jimboston]

Statues are not racist.
They are inanimate objects typical made of stone or bronze.

The ideas they convey are really implied/imposed on them by the viewer, and as such are subjective and change over time.

On the one hand I feel people currently living in an area and paying taxes have a right to decide what statues they want in their public spaces.
I don’t think a small minority should make these decisions for everyone.
I don’t think outside people should impose their views on people in the region/area in which a statue exists.
I don’t think these decisions should be rash.

Depending on the period of time a person lived the vast majority of “Leaders”, or people who we’d typically think worthy of statues, are going to be racist/homophobic/anti-feminism/etc. There are exceptions of course, but these are few.

Recently we’ve seen people opposed to statues of “Confederate Hero’s” in the USA, because they were racists and supported slavery. They did.

Now there are people opposed to a wave of “racist” statues... from Christopher Columbus to Winston Churchill and more. These two men, and many of the other men whose images are being attacked, most certainly were racist by modern standards. Where they terrible racists by the standards of their day? That’s a more fair evaluation.

Who know what norms may change in the future?

50 years from now maybe transpersons will attack statues because the men or women being honored with said statue were “opposed to equal rights for trans people”?

Martin Luther King Jr. wasn’t into gay bashing, but he did think being gay was a “problem” that was “culturally acquired” and could be “fixed”. This view completely opposes the current thinking on homosexuality and is offensive to the homosexual community. Maybe we remove all statues of MLK Jr. to show solidarity to our homosexual brothers/sisters/others... regardless of whatever good he did in other areas?

[jimboston]

As an aside, I think we should consider why someone is honored with a statue... and if that reason is related to something bad or racist I’d be inclined to remove the statue.

So Confederate “Hero’s”... they are being honored for fighting a war to perpetuate slavery.
Yeah... pretty obvious, take it down.

Christopher Columbus...he’s being honored for “discovering” the New World, and this lead to the near genocide of the native peoples of America. That said he didn’t set out to deliver smallpox to America, and his “discovery” did help push the world “forward” in a sense. So to me this is debatable, but I’m inclined to take down his statue or at least consider getting rid of the holiday we hold in his name.

Winston Churchill is honored because his leadership in WW2. He had some racist views in line with most men of his class in that time. I don’t see why we should remove his statue.

[mrswdk]

These are not people who did all sorts of things but just happened to have some objectionable values on the hush hush. 2 of the 3 statues in the OP were people whose entire contribution to society was making lots of money out of the Atlantic slave trade.

[jimboston]

These are not people who did all sorts of things but just happened to have some objectionable values on the hush hush. 2 of the 3 statues in the OP were people whose entire contribution to society was making lots of money out of the Atlantic slave trade.

OK.. take those down. Did you read the second post?

I never named those people because my knowledge of English history is not all encompassing.

I did specially oppose the idea that Churchill’s statue calls for obvious removal.
I know he was generally racist (as per most men of his age), and he was definitely a British Imperialist.
I don’t however think he was “evil” and I believe his contributions to history outweigh his negatives.

(Also, semantics here... but statues aren’t racist. Not possible.)

[mrswdk]

Churchill:

- Deliberately annihilated 25,000 residents of Dresden in an aerial bombing raid for no reason other than to scare the German population
- Tried to starve Gandhi to death while he was imprisoned
- Sent the notorious Black and Tans to Ireland where they carried out systematic mass attacks on civilians with no reprisal
- etc.

Saying Churchill was a great leader with some negatives is like saying the Nazis made some good medical advances.

[jimboston]

I understand some may be opposed to mass bombings of co-civilian/industrial areas in times of war.
At the time this was SOP.

I am pretty sure Gandhi tried to starve himself to death.
Again, occupation of India was a terrible thing, and in retrospect it’s very “Imperial” and probably would be considered a “war crime”.
At the end of the Victorian Age “empire” was not the four-letter-word we consider it today.

Ditto for the occupation of Ireland.

Please continue to harshly judge historical people by modern standards. It’s very helpful.

So you think we should abandon glorification of MLK because his views on homosexuality align with modern views?

Using your method of “judging” I don’t think we’d be able to honor ANY historical leader from any time up through the present.

Even Gandhi himself would not survive under the New World Order of the Me Too Movement.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/321957

[jusplay4fun]

is there anything about British society that mrswdk thinks is acceptable? that would shorten the # of posts by this person.

Any thing that can prompt a criticism of British and Western society is fodder for his rants and numerous posts.

Most of his posts are intended to troll comments by others. They make interesting discussions on a few occasions, but most are not real discussion by him, JUS attempts to spread dissatisfaction and consternation. He rarely listens, mostly JUS reacts and I see very little real thought. He is JUS pushing "buttons" to prompt reactions.

[ConfederateSS]

As an aside, I think we should consider why someone is honored with a statue... and if that reason is related to something bad or racist I’d be inclined to remove the statue.

So Confederate “Hero’s”... they are being honored for fighting a war to perpetuate slavery.
Yeah... pretty obvious, take it down.

Christopher Columbus...he’s being honored for “discovering” the New World, and this lead to the near genocide of the native peoples of America. That said he didn’t set out to deliver smallpox to America, and his “discovery” did help push the world “forward” in a sense. So to me this is debatable, but I’m inclined to take down his statue or at least consider getting rid of the holiday we hold in his name.

Winston Churchill is honored because his leadership in WW2. He had some racist views in line with most men of his class in that time. I don’t see why we should remove his statue.

.......
---------------Try again....Most were fighting ,just because the North was in their backyard...90% of The SOUTH's soldiers...were poor mountain and farm boys...The Rich ...didn't fight...Like The Rich in any war...They find away ...to stay away.....
---------------Ever heard of The Knights of Columbus...They do great work...
---------------Churchill was the greatest statesman/man of the 20th cen...A public speaker for 67 years...
----------------The Attack on History must Stop!!!... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...
-------Should The Great Wall of China,The Pyramids of Egypt,The Colosuem or any other great feat of Ancient Rome be torn down???.... Humanity is losing it's past and it's future...If we are not careful...We will disappear from the face of the Earth altogether...
.......Who brought slaves to America?,Who committed mass genocide in the name of Manifest Destiny...against The Native Americans?..,Who stoled half of Mexico?...Let us see....Oh!Wait...The Stars and Stipes...The USA...I guess we should tear down the Statue of Liberty....It is fun picking and choosing...isn't it........How can one put 21st cen...Thinking....to things of a different era?..That is what makes the least sense of all...

[mrswdk]

I understand some may be opposed to mass bombings of co-civilian/industrial areas in times of war.
At the time this was SOP.

Oh okay, well if it’s just what people used to do then I guess we should continue glorifying it forever. Persecuting people for their religion was standard practice for centuries so really I don’t see why we don’t have more statues of Hitler.

At the end of the Victorian Age “empire” was not the four-letter-word we consider it today.

Ditto for the occupation of Ireland.

I didn’t say the main problem was that Ireland was occupied during Churchill’s time. I said it was his use of the Black and Tans, who indiscriminately and repeatedly attacked civilian settlements.

For someone who’s so big in semantics you’re not very good at reading the words in front of you.

[mrswdk]

a criticism of British and Western society

It’s British society who are opposing these statues. Try again.

[jimboston]

So Confederate “Hero’s”... they are being honored for fighting a war to perpetuate slavery.
Yeah... pretty obvious, take it down.

Try again....Most were fighting ,just because the North was in their backyard...90% of The SOUTH's soldiers...were poor mountain and farm boys...The Rich ...didn't fight...Like The Rich in any war...They find away ...to stay away.....

#1) The thread is about taking down statues of Confederate “Hero’s”. Which means specific men.... generally the leaders.
A statue or plaque dedicated to Confederate foot soldiers MAY be a different thing. It’s a different debate anyway.
It’s pretty easy to determine why most of those individual Southern Leaders weren’t great men.

You’re right that SOME grunts from the South may have fought for reasons other than to support slavery.
The most direct reason many fought was that they were compelled to fight by the draft. It’s funny that a “country” which purports to fight for “free will and freedom of oppression” from the North... and one of the first things it does is implement a draft.

You’re right many rich didn’t fight, I know in the North you could buy your way out of the draft by paying someone to take your place. I’m not sure if this was true in the South too. I do know that men who OWNED 10 or more other people (i.e. slaves) could get exemptions. Only well-to-do people would be in this position. So like many wars, the rich started it, and then let the poor fight it.

None of that means the war wasn’t fought by the South to protect the Institution of Slavery. It was. Slavery was the PRIMARY cause for Southern Rebellion by a long shot. Read some history... it’s not hard to figure out.

---------------Ever heard of The Knights of Columbus...They do great work...

This organization is NAMED after Columbus. It was not founded by Columbus and has nothing to do with him aside from its’ name.

---------------Churchill was the greatest statesman/man of the 20th cen...A public speaker for 67 years...

I generally agree... but that doesn’t mean I’ll be blind to specific facts about him; nor is my opinion of him locked in granite. If I found out something (from a legitimate source) that disturbed me... I’d be open to changing my opinion.

----------------The Attack on History must Stop!!!... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

It’s not necessarily an ATTACK... sometimes it is; but often it’s just evaluating history with a better or different lense.

-------Should The Great Wall of China,The Pyramids of Egypt,The Colosuem or any other great feat of Ancient Rome be torn down???.... Humanity is losing it's past and it's future...If we are not careful...We will disappear from the face of the Earth altogether...

Yawn.

Oh... and we will eventually disappear from the face of the Earth.

.......Who brought slaves to America?,Who committed mass genocide in the name of Manifest Destiny...against The Native Americans?..,Who stoled half of Mexico?...Let us see....Oh!Wait...The Stars and Stipes...The USA...I guess we should tear down the Statue of Liberty....It is fun picking and choosing...isn't it........

Closer... but you’re facts are off. USA perpetuated and benefitted from those things... that true. The USA didn’t exist when those things started.
1) Slave trade in North America started under British rule.
2) Genocide of Natives and Manifest Destiny... you can say that started in North America with the first permanent European settlement in North America. That’s San Augustin (St. Augustine) in Florida, founded by the Spaniards.
3) Texans started the wars with Mexico. Granted... these Texans were Americans who emigrated to Mexico, became Mexicans, then rebelled and became Texans. USA continued the wars...bug those Texans started them.

Certainly the USA is not free of guilt in any of those things... I’m not saying that.

In fact I’m agreeing with it... which. is why I do agree we need to evaluate our historical statues to make sure they show all sides of a person or event... and not just glorify things and sweep shit under the rug. Which is what you do when it comes to The South in the Civil War.

How can one put 21st cen...Thinking....to things of a different era?..That is what makes the least sense of all...

It makes sense to think about it... but you do have to consider actions and people as products of their time.
You shouldn’t ignore facts, and sometimes people who have been glorified really don’t deserve it... nor does everyone need to be vilified.

[jimboston]

I understand some may be opposed to mass bombings of co-civilian/industrial areas in times of war.
At the time this was SOP.

Oh okay, well if it’s just what people used to do then I guess we should continue glorifying it forever. Persecuting people for their religion was standard practice for centuries so really I don’t see why we don’t have more statues of Hitler.

At the end of the Victorian Age “empire” was not the four-letter-word we consider it today.

Ditto for the occupation of Ireland.

I didn’t say the main problem was that Ireland was occupied during Churchill’s time. I said it was his use of the Black and Tans, who indiscriminately and repeatedly attacked civilian settlements.

For someone who’s so big in semantics you’re not very good at reading the words in front of you.

Yawn.

Please stop putting words in my mouth.
Not once have I said “nothing” should be re-evaluated.

... I saw what you wrote about the Blank and Tans. That was one bad action in the whole occupation of Ireland.
I’m condemning the entire occupation from pre-history through today.

[KoolBak]

A good bud in England tells me football clubs are taking turns protecting valuable statuary from vandals.

Nice to hear about citizens doing something for the good, as opposed to all these barbarians acting out their repressed fucking problems.

Now if we could just get rid of Swdke.....

[mrswdk]

I’m condemning the entire occupation

Glad to hear that you agree that the colonisation and repression of Ireland that Churchill directly took part in was an abomination.

[YukFoo]

It is too bad people are wasting their time and resources on something that happened generations ago, instead of putting that energy to use and make positive changes in something that is happening today.

Can't change the past. I have been trying.

[jimboston]

I’m condemning the entire occupation

Glad to hear that you agree that the colonisation and repression of Ireland that Churchill directly took part in was an abomination.

Churchill didn’t start it and was in no positional stop it...

He was a bit busy fighting WW2.

Next.

[mrswdk]

I’m condemning the entire occupation

Glad to hear that you agree that the colonisation and repression of Ireland that Churchill directly took part in was an abomination.

Churchill didn’t start it and was in no positional stop it...

He was a bit busy fighting WW2.

I would love to continue being given history lessons about Ireland from someone who thinks it was still under British control during WW2.

[jimboston]

I’m condemning the entire occupation

Glad to hear that you agree that the colonisation and repression of Ireland that Churchill directly took part in was an abomination.

Churchill didn’t start it and was in no positional stop it...

He was a bit busy fighting WW2.

I would love to continue being given history lessons about Ireland from someone who thinks it was still under British control during WW2.

Parts of it are still under British control today.

[mrswdk]

Oh well then your claim that Churchill was too busy fighting World War 2 (1939-1945) to have had much direct involvement in the deployment of Black and Tans to Ireland (1920-22) is probably right.

[jimboston]

Oh well then your claim that Churchill was too busy fighting World War 2 (1939-1945) to have had much direct involvement in the deployment of Black and Tans to Ireland (1920-22) is probably right.

ugh...

Churchill was not perfect... and I don’t agree with him across the board.
Over all... what he is being honored for is somewhat independent of the things about him which are distasteful... and so I’d say he should stay.
That’s MY OPINION.

The POINT you are ignoring is that you can basically find something bad about everyone.

... and also what we consider bad today if different than common opinion in the past.

That said... I think you can apply some judgements using the moral standards of today (on men from history). but I think you must be careful, because if you take it too far then we should honor no historical figures at all.

Which may be fine (if we honor no one)... but I personally like history... and I think you can weigh things and look be reasonable, and there may be some grey areas, and decisions may change over time... but I don’t think we should tear down statues without deep consideration.

[mookiemcgee]

[Jdsizzleslice]

I oppose this clearly racist statue.

[mookiemcgee]

fun fact, the statues official name is 'Do you like it like that, bitch.'

[Jdsizzleslice]

fun fact, the statues official name is 'Do you like it like that, bitch.'

I dOn'T lIkE iT lIkE tHaT, aNd YoU'rE tHe RaCiSt.

lol