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Should the bombs have been dropped?

 
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Postby flashleg8 on Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:06 am

Nobunaga wrote:
... It is good to look back on history and to try to learn from it. But to truly understand the situation seen by the men and women who lived through those times is damned near impossible. The Japanese (well, about 90% of them anyway) feel nothing but shame about the Pacific War (as they call WWII). They know now the "evil" that drove them to war, and the many horrendous deeds committed by the Japanese in Asia. Very few people here will even talk about it, only drunken older men, and only on occasion. This is why the Japanese have no true military today (they have a "Self-defense Force" - very small), and why they are up in arms any time there is discussion of having their self defense forces units sent anywhere overseas. Even the slightest shadow of militarism is to be avoided at all cost.

...


Enjoyed your post, just wanted to question one thing, if the Japanese people look back on the Pacific War with shame - why is the Japanese government so reluctant to apologise for their brutal treatment of POWs taken during this time? They have had many opportunities to publicly address this issue but have consistently refused to do so - are they in denial?
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Postby Bertros Bertros on Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:28 am

Nobunaga wrote:... I could go on, but I believe I've made my point. Second-guessing Roosevelt, Truman, hell even Emporer Hirohito and Tojo should be done with caution.

...


Excellent post. As you point out the situation for the Japanese was absolutely desperate and the primary concern was becoming the preservation of the Empire. The war was already lost though there was still plenty of fighting that could be done. I think the Russians were trying to broker a peace deal with the Japanese based on a conditional surrender based on the Empire remaining in power.

Most of my knowledge of the war comes from the BBC series World at War which was first broadcast in 1973 and it has been agood few years since I last watched it. Its an amazing documentary series in that there are hundreds of interviews with eyewitnesses and hours of recovered footage from archives. It provides incredible insight into the war that just isnt available today. I can remember the interview with the pilot of the bomber who dropped the Hiroshima bomb, as I recall he remained certain they had done the right thing. Whether this subject interests you or not I couldn't recommend it more highly.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-At-War-Co ... 227&sr=1-1
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Postby Nobunaga on Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:41 am

flashleg8 wrote:Enjoyed your post, just wanted to question one thing, if the Japanese people look back on the Pacific War with shame - why is the Japanese government so reluctant to apologize for their brutal treatment of POWs taken during this time? They have had many opportunities to publicly address this issue but have consistently refused to do so - are they in denial?


... That one is tough to explain. In its simplest terms, admission would necessitate the taking of responsibility. The Japanese (the government at least) wants to avoid this at all costs. And yes, there is a great deal of denial here. It's very much all wrapped up in Asian cultural values, and sadly, I don't really comprehend much of this way of thought.

... The Japanese ARE in massive denial, though, yes. The details most know of their own history are quite vague, as these are much smoothed-over if not completely ignored in school history classes (especially what went on in China). It's so hard to explain... it's akin to just happily keeping your mind off of the thing while doing other stuff - on a mass, nationwide scale. Anything that brings militarism or those ugly parts of history into the limelight is quickly smashed, with the tacit approval of a grateful population. It's a sad situation... Japan is, in a way, eagerly waiting for the last of its Pacific War veterans to die off from old age.

... I remember vividly, a man, a senior, who came to our town to give a speech. It was aimed at senior citizens and had mostly to do with "living life to the fullest"... or some such. Anyway, he went off on this huge tangent about his days in the army during the war, and his capture in SE Asia. While he was going on and on about this, I watched in amazement as a lot of people started to visibly squirm, and murmur... and then about 10 or 12 men just got up and left, extremely angry. (I worked at this venue). My boss told me those guys were all vets, pissed at the speaker for bringing the subject up. "They just want to forget", my boss said.

... Specifically concerning POWs, the concept of giving up was foreign to the Japanese during that time, and they could not comprehend a man so low as to surrender, or allow himself to be captured. Seriously (so I am told). This was one reason the US and the Brits suffered huge casualties against the Japanese on the islands of the Pacific. The "little bastards" (as my uncle would've said) just kept fighting, beyond any hope of victory. Until the last years of the war, there were almost NO Japanese POWs. They won, or they died. ... this doesn't really explain their brutality... but suffice it to say that captured Allied soldiers weren't really considered human. And... Japan has a long history of brutality to its prisoners - using them for sword practice and the like (even during WWII).

... They just want to forget this stuff.

...
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Postby magneticgoop on Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:48 am

I think the Japanese really deserved it (Rape of Nanjing-which they refuse to even admit, several forced labor POW camps that made the Nazi POW camps look like a cakewalk, and Pearl Harbor). The Japanese really had no respect for their civilians if they did they would not have
... Boys were taken from their schools, mostly junior high school aged, since high school boys were already fighting (manning AA gun batteries and what not), and trained to fight the "Barbarian Demonic Americans", as they were referred to then. Due to the very serious shortage of actual weapons, most were trained with sharpened bamboo poles, and told to rush the Americans for their Emperor, and for their families Should the Americans win, they believed, their sisters and their mothers would be brutally raped and killed.
Total war means total war the Japanese knew we wanted an unconditional surrender and they knew they were going to lose but they weren't going down until every last male was killed defending the emperor. We must recognize Japanese culture too. They would literally go on suicide missions, they obviously respected the emperor more than themselves and as long as the emperor needs defending they wont stop fighting. At least the US recognizes we may have made a mistake, but many Japanese to this day refuses to acknowledge the Rape of Nanjing (which killed 300,000+ civilians, justified on a Chinese attack on a Japanese railroad which were Japanese dressed in Chinese uniforms)
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Postby vtmarik on Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:55 am

The1exile wrote:
Bertros Bertros wrote:But then if they hadn't been then an atomic bomb would have been used somewhere else by now...


...or we would have been using the technology to develop safer nuclear energy and be avoiding the row over fossil fuels.


I'd like to disagree with this statement merely on the fact that despite our lust for nuclear ordnance, we have developed very useful nuclear technologies. Unfortunately, Eisenhower signed a bill that stated that we wouldn't recycle still-usable nuclear material to use as fuel.

When you get a chance, look up the Integral Fast Reactor on Wikipedia, it's a fascinating concept.
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Postby jay_a2j on Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:59 am

Its to my understanding that a warning was given. After we dropped on Hiroshima we gave another warning. The Japanese didn't think we could make another bomb as quickly as we did and refused to surrender. So we dropped the second bomb on Nagasaki. Finally they surrendered.
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Postby Balsiefen on Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:36 am

jay_a2j wrote:Its to my understanding that a warning was given. After we dropped on Hiroshima we gave another warning. The Japanese didn't think we could make another bomb as quickly as we did and refused to surrender. So we dropped the second bomb on Nagasaki. Finally they surrendered.


a warning was not given before hiroshima, the japanese had only 3 days between the bombs which is not a long enough time to decide on a surrender
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Postby Nobunaga on Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:02 am

magneticgoop wrote: ... they weren't going down until every last male was killed defending the emperor. ... They would literally go on suicide missions, they obviously respected the emperor more than themselves and as long as the emperor needs defending they wont stop fighting. ...


... But it wasn't really for the Emperor. The average guy, working the average job with the average family... MIGHT have believed a little in the divinity of the Emperor, as it was drilled into their heads day and night... but their motivation was not, mostly, for their Emperor.

... Like the famed Kamikaze pilots. These guys didn't want to die for Hirohito. All that shtick about honor and what not... that's just bad TV. Should they fail to live up to what was expected of them, "giving their lives for their Emperor", their families would suffer shame and disgrace. Public pressure in Japan then, and now, is huge, in determining and influencing decisions and actions.

... An interesting note on the Kamikaze... These guys could barely fly. Pressured to join the flying corps for the sole purpose of flying suicide runs. I doubt seriously they felt any great desire to protect the Emperor by killing themselves, but rather they knew the consequences of their hesitation would be met by severe rebuke for their entire families. Kamikaze runs flown by true, experienced fighter pilots were almost none.

... poor bastards.

...
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Postby magneticgoop on Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:27 pm

Nobunaga wrote:
magneticgoop wrote: ... they weren't going down until every last male was killed defending the emperor. ... They would literally go on suicide missions, they obviously respected the emperor more than themselves and as long as the emperor needs defending they wont stop fighting. ...


... But it wasn't really for the Emperor. The average guy, working the average job with the average family... MIGHT have believed a little in the divinity of the Emperor, as it was drilled into their heads day and night... but their motivation was not, mostly, for their Emperor.

... Like the famed Kamikaze pilots. These guys didn't want to die for Hirohito. All that shtick about honor and what not... that's just bad TV. Should they fail to live up to what was expected of them, "giving their lives for their Emperor", their families would suffer shame and disgrace. Public pressure in Japan then, and now, is huge, in determining and influencing decisions and actions.

... An interesting note on the Kamikaze... These guys could barely fly. Pressured to join the flying corps for the sole purpose of flying suicide runs. I doubt seriously they felt any great desire to protect the Emperor by killing themselves, but rather they knew the consequences of their hesitation would be met by severe rebuke for their entire families. Kamikaze runs flown by true, experienced fighter pilots were almost none.

... poor bastards.

...


that is what i meant they would sacrifice themselves for their emperor to prevent their family from disowning them
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Postby unriggable on Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:29 pm

g unit wrote:i think that the US did the right thing! the japaneese ppl desevred it, well you know, they bomed us w/out warning, so we were ust returning the favor! it was necisarry! NO warnings needed! it help to end the war!


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Postby Hitman079 on Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:32 pm

jay_a2j wrote:Its to my understanding that a warning was given. After we dropped on Hiroshima we gave another warning. The Japanese didn't think we could make another bomb as quickly as we did and refused to surrender. So we dropped the second bomb on Nagasaki. Finally they surrendered.

Although a warning for Pearl Harbor was not given, it had been predicted, that an attack would take place on American soil on that date (Dec 7 1941) after a coded message was deciphered. However, it wasn't taken seriously, and there was no elevated threat level (or any other similar preparation since I don't believe the color-security levels existed then).
as a response to jay_a2j: A warning was given, but it was not even near enough time. According to the wikipedia article:
After the Hiroshima bombing, President Truman announced, "If they do not now accept our terms, they may expect a rain of ruin from the air the likes of which has never been seen on this earth." On August 8, 1945, leaflets were dropped and warnings were given to Japan by Radio Saipan. (The area of Nagasaki did not receive warning leaflets until August 10, though the leaflet campaign covering the whole country was over a month into its operations.)

Also, Truman had issued the Potsdam Declaration to the Japanese government, which described the terms of surrender on July 26, 1945. The Emperor and the war council were still considering four conditions for surrender stated in the said statement.
The agreement stated that if Japan did not surrender, it would face "prompt and utter destruction".

I don't believe we actually explicitly described what we would do, bombing or whatnot. The warning sounded more along the lines of "we will take action, but we are not completely prepared to do so" despite the presence of the word "prompt".
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Postby jay_a2j on Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:48 pm

Balsiefen wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Its to my understanding that a warning was given. After we dropped on Hiroshima we gave another warning. The Japanese didn't think we could make another bomb as quickly as we did and refused to surrender. So we dropped the second bomb on Nagasaki. Finally they surrendered.


a warning was not given before hiroshima, the japanese had only 3 days between the bombs which is not a long enough time to decide on a surrender



You can do a lot in 3 days. Wonder how many Allied soldiers died within those 3 days? :roll:
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Postby Neutrino on Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:39 am

jay_a2j wrote:
Balsiefen wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:Its to my understanding that a warning was given. After we dropped on Hiroshima we gave another warning. The Japanese didn't think we could make another bomb as quickly as we did and refused to surrender. So we dropped the second bomb on Nagasaki. Finally they surrendered.


a warning was not given before hiroshima, the japanese had only 3 days between the bombs which is not a long enough time to decide on a surrender



You can do a lot in 3 days. Wonder how many Allied soldiers died within those 3 days? :roll:


I wonder how many Japanese civilians died in those 2 nukes :roll:

Really, more time should have been given. 3 days is not enough time for an entire nation, especially one as militaristic as Japan's, (at that time) to surrender.
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