Petition to Make Justice Legal

[DoomYoshi]

https://petitions.ourcommons.ca/en/Peti ... ion=e-2574

Sign it or die.

[jimboston]

1) American not Canadian.

2) This is about gun rights not “Justice”.

[Dukasaur]

It's hilarious to see the Conservative Party immolating itself. Some of their criticisms of this bill are factually correct, but they totally miss the point. Canadians are watching the carnage south of the border and seeing it slowly but surely creeping northward, and they're rightfully scared. When Trudeau passed the AR ban, he felt secure doing so, based on multiple solid polls showing that something between 78 and 80 percent of Canadians support it. Now the Conservatives want to make this their big issue in the next election, an issue where they have 22% support at best! What a stupid hill to die on.

[DoomYoshi]

It's a small issue that the liberal media turns into a bigger issue. There is a far bigger issue that most Conservatives are agreed upon - making bad internet illegal. When the Conservatives separated the board of broadcast from the CBC, they did so because the CBC was both "cop and competitor" which is an unhealthy situation. In 1968 the Liberals ruined that and made the CRTC which has, in turn, screwed up television, radio, phones and internet for Canadians. Where are all the ARs going? The Libs are selling them to Libya to pay to keep our internet bad. Meanwhile, they are all binge watching Queer Eye and further clogging the bandwidth.
http://www.netnewsledger.com/2020/05/06 ... s-by-2021/

The Liberal model doesn't work - internet is not just a tool of exploitation to get money out of people. It was created as a public good in the US&A and should still be viewed as a public good. To argue that 90% of Canada doesn't deserve good internet because there isn't enough people to exploit is not a great argument. For some reason, this story goes almost unreported in the media.

[KoolBak]

So Duk....why is the carnage creeping northward? Is stupidity catching?

And why should an AR be banned and an M1 Garand be a collectors item? If that applies here; not willing to click and read

[DoomYoshi]

So Duk....why is the carnage creeping northward? Is stupidity catching?

And why should an AR be banned and an M1 Garand be a collectors item? If that applies here; not willing to click and read

It's not just ARs that are banned. Rugers, Berettas, M14s. ~1500 weapons are banned.

Here's the full list (warning: 69 pages)
http://gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2020/2020 ... 6-eng.html

[KoolBak]

Not 1500 weapons...less than 100 but there are LOTS of companies that make those.

Mainly assault rifles then. I own several on that list

My point here; this ban (age-wise) starts at the M14 which replaced the M1. I don't see the M1 on this list. Why not? And my hunting rifle that is semi auto 30-06 has an option for a 20 round mag, so identical to the M14 but more powerful. Not on the list. Neither are my pistol caliber carbines.

I know I'm arguing semantics, but if semi auto, high capacity is what the problem is, they are missing over 50% of the available weapons. You'd think it would be all or nothing.

So I guess it's ok to collect Garands, the one rifle that has the highest kill count in history.

What's my point? Hell if I know

[DoomYoshi]

Not 1500 weapons...less than 100 but there are LOTS of companies that make those.

Mainly assault rifles then. I own several on that list

My point here; this ban (age-wise) starts at the M14 which replaced the M1. I don't see the M1 on this list. Why not? And my hunting rifle that is semi auto 30-06 has an option for a 20 round mag, so identical to the M14 but more powerful. Not on the list. Neither are my pistol caliber carbines.

I know I'm arguing semantics, but if semi auto, high capacity is what the problem is, they are missing over 50% of the available weapons. You'd think it would be all or nothing.

So I guess it's ok to collect Garands, the one rifle that has the highest kill count in history.

What's my point? Hell if I know

High Capacity magazines have always been banned in Canada. The problem isn't high capacity.

It's because the guns are black and scary looking.

[2dimes]

I suspect the law is being written by people that have never seen a fire arm that was not in a holster on a police officer's belt. Unfourtunately that is the majority of law abiding persons in the country.

Most of the government officials think certain firearms will simply cease to exist thanks to their new legislation.

I am not sure I even care anymore but I read they accidentally made 12 gauge shotguns illegal.

they are missing over 50% of the available weapons.

They will get to the rest if they can.

[KoolBak]

They made the round itself illegal? A shotgun shell? What aboot 10 G? Or 20, 16, 410 or 8??

Craxy. I'd be fooked. I mean here, there is a massive industry around reloading for one thing, not to mention all the uncountable other impacts to making shotguns illegal. I have an entire small section of my shop set up for reloading with my grandpas rig at the heart. Hundreds of pounds of lead, smelters, dies, mold, powder, hulls, primers, wads...would kill me to hafta part with that. Not to mention my antique shotguns I collect (shudder)

Selfish again, I know.....

[Dukasaur]

So Duk....why is the carnage creeping northward? Is stupidity catching?

Good question. It's being imported two ways.

First, it's being imported mematically. Deranged lunatics worship other deranged lunatics. (For proof, just look at saxitoxin's drooling posts in praise of Quaddafi, Napoleon, etc.) Almost every week there's another mass shooting in the U.S. being shown on the news, and lunatics everywhere on earth think to themselves, "Hey! I could be as cool as that guy!" Our last mass murderer, the dork with the van, explicitly made 4chan posts in praise of the Isla Vista killer and other American mass murderers. So far, we don't know the full story of the Nova Scotia killer, but once it all comes out, I'm sure that there will be someone like Timothy McVeigh on his list of heroes. So that's the first way it's being imported, as the meme itself, the idea of the glorious martyr going down in flames to punish society for its injustices or whatever these retards think about in their last moments.

Second, the guns themselves are being imported in ever larger quantities. Our border was always relatively porous, but the same Conservative Party which howls the loudest about the porosity of the border, laid off 1000 border agents last time they were in office. Our "relatively porous" border became "ridiculously porous." At this point, unless you stand up in your sunroof and yell, "Hey, I gots 50 kilos of coke! Anybody wants to buy some?" you're going to get waved through Canada Customs without a search. It's true that you don't need to search everyone. Random spot checks can be a powerful deterrent. To work as a deterrent, spot checks have to be frequent enough to form a credible threat. When you only have the manpower to search 1 car in every 40,000 or whatever the stat is, criminals know that they're more likely to be struck by lightning than to be searched at Canada Customs. So cheap American guns are flooding the Canadian underground market.

And why should an AR be banned and an M1 Garand be a collectors item? If that applies here; not willing to click and read

Don't ask me to defend the logic of the government's choices. Like I said, many of the Conservative's criticisms of the bill are factually correct. The bill is largely nonsensical. The little 5-shot .22 I used to carry when I was a little kid murdering blackbirds and bullfrogs in the marsh is illegal now. If I had to go fight a bunch of cops wearing flak jackets, I don't think a .22 would do me much good.

The bill is going to accomplish very little good. On the other hand, it's going to accomplish very little bad. There are less than 10 thousand Canadians with semi-automatic rifles, and other than being pissed off this really doesn't harm them. It means they have to switch back to bolt-action rifles for their hunting or their target shooting or whatever they do. Really, not much more than an annoyance.

More than anything, this is a purely emotional response to a purely emotional problem. We just had the largest mass murder (well, by a civilian, anyway) in Canadian history, and people are scared. They want reassurance that the government did something to protect them. The government did something. It's largely futile and stupid, but it's something. Polls show that upwards of 80% of the population supports it. Any serious researcher will tell you that most people make decisions from emotion, not logic. There are times in a democratic society when you just have to say "Cedere Vox Populi" and roll with it.

I don't support this bill, but unlike the Conservative Party, I'm smart enough not to stand in the path of a moving freight train. They are going apeshit crazy about this largely cosmetic bill, which is going to put them in the path of 80% of the voting public.

[KoolBak]

Interesting. So, as usual, the problem is fucked up people. They've sadly been around since the beginning of time ;o(

I can personally guarantee you that none of my legally owned and responsibly handled weapons will ever be a problem....unless you're a criminal trying to do me harm ;o)

[mrswdk]

I have signed the petition. Say no to dictatorship!

[mookiemcgee]

It's hilarious to see the Conservative Party immolating itself. Some of their criticisms of this bill are factually correct, but they totally miss the point. Canadians are watching the carnage south of the border and seeing it slowly but surely creeping northward, and they're rightfully scared. When Trudeau passed the AR ban, he felt secure doing so, based on multiple solid polls showing that something between 78 and 80 percent of Canadians support it. Now the Conservatives want to make this their big issue in the next election, an issue where they have 22% support at best! What a stupid hill to die on.

at least they will die with their guns in hand?

[jimboston]

I still don;t understand what gun-control . gun-right have to do with “making justice legal”?

on an aside... why can’t we (as a society) come. together and come up with some reasonable balance on this issue?

What’s wrong with background checks and slightly longer waits when you first apply for a gun permit?

Why does anyone need high capacity and/or rapid firing guns?
If it’s a 2nd Amendment Issue fine... let’s make that permit/license a little harder to get.

Different permits for different levels of gun access?
1) General Firearm Permit - Handguns at Home / Hunting Rifles Transported in Truck (secure)
2) Conceal Carry Permit - OK for small capacity / low caliber concealed carry.
3) Master License - Allows higher capacity / higher caliber ownership... requires more detailed background checks.
Just an idea.

“Antique” or vintage guns probably have different rules already... but i’m guessing what is defined as ‘antique’ can be vague or confusing. A WW2 machine gun can still kill people, no? Maybe this is another type of license or registration... or keeping them at home is different than transporting.

[DoomYoshi]

I still don;t understand what gun-control . gun-right have to do with “making justice legal”?

How can there be justice for black people when only the white cops get guns?

[KoolBak]

Don't be a douche, yosh.

Jim Boston....you're not a gun owner or someone that's ever bought one are you?

There ARE stringent checks you have to go through to buy ANY gun. Many states make you wait as well. Even MORE stringent requirements for carry. Private party sales are not legal without checks either. The MOST stringent are for specialty (class 3) weapons that are indeed more dangerous and class 3 holders are closely monitored. Full auto, suppressors, explosive, short barreled etc.

High capacity, semi autos are fun.

Why do car manufacturers need to make a sports car with over 700 horses? It's fun.

Why do we need a single beer that's 44 ounces? It's fun.

Antique weapons are the same as new, checking wise.

Take away something, crazy fucks will use something else. Oh, and there's the criminals that don't abide by our rules too ....

[jimboston]

I still don;t understand what gun-control . gun-right have to do with “making justice legal”?

How can there be justice for black people when only the white cops get guns?

Is that the argument you’re going to stand on to relate these two separate issues?

So... in your mind... black people can only get “justice” if they can “defend” themselves from police by shooting at police?

If THAT’S the point you’re making them your world-view is so far removed from mine / logic / reality that it’s hard to even begin to debate how dumb that idea is. Let me put aside all ‘normal’ reasons why it’s dumb and just go for the most obvious...

Try to follow the logic train...
- You say black people can only get ‘justice’ by arming themselves against police.
- Therefore you are claiming that it’s ok for black people to fire at police when they feel they aren’t ‘getting justice’.
- Therefore you are basically advocating a race-war.
- That advocation is all by itself crazy... but it wouldn’t even solve the problem.
(I mean it’d be crazy anyway... but maybe if you could argue it’d solve the (stated) problem at least you could make a case.)
- If there were mass arming of black people to ‘fight police injustice’ this would just escalate... and police tactics would get worse (i.e. more violent and retaliatory).
- Ultimately this would result in a worse situation for black people because white people would (en masse) side with police (law and order).
- Since black people are still a minority this chain of events would result in an even worse situation than we currently have.

Making a case for gun rights is fine.... making a case for gun rights and tying this to “racial justice” is ridiculous.

(BTW... I’m NOT claiming the system we have is perfect and there’s equal justice for all. I think there should be and we are clearly failing to reach this ideal. I also think there’s a better way to achieve this goal than by arming the public, and essentially saying it’s “ok” to shot at police when you feel they are being unjust.)

[jimboston]

Don't be a douche, yosh.

He can’t help himself.

Jim Boston....you're not a gun owner or someone that's ever bought one are you?

No... but I have fired one and do support the Second Amendment.
I also realize that cultural values and norms vary greatly between people and how I feel is different in part based on where I live and how I was raised. I recognize and respect your tie and connection and interest in guns and gun rights.

There ARE stringent checks you have to go through to buy ANY gun. Many states make you wait as well. Even MORE stringent requirements for carry. Private party sales are not legal without checks either. The MOST stringent are for specialty (class 3) weapons that are indeed more dangerous and class 3 holders are closely monitored. Full auto, suppressors, explosive, short barreled etc.

I won’t claim to know all the laws.

I don’t think outright bans on all “assault” weapons are the solution. I didn’t say that I think there should be an outright ban.
I think both sides need to get off their extreme positions... listen to and respect the views of the other side... and work together for some compromise.

I do think that having drastically different laws in different states (in today’s day and age) is silly. i think we need to recognize that having different laws in different states is dumb.

I do think there are private sale and gun-show loopholes that need to be closed.

I don’t know if laws have been updated... but I recall about 12-13 years ago being in Key West, FL. At that time I was getting a haircut in a barbershop, and I was legally able to buy a handgun with no permit... and the barbershop was also a gun shop with a case of handguns for sale. That seems like a recipe for trouble.

I also think there should be extreme penalties for people who buy or sell guns illegally that circumvent the system.

High capacity, semi autos are fun.

Ok. I respect your right to have them.

Why do car manufacturers need to make a sports car with over 700 horses? It's fun.

That’s fine.

If you told me there were gonna be two (or more) levels of drivers license I would agree.
I know there are already different classes for big rig drivers, and for school bus drivers.

I’d definitely be OK with another class that limits access to high powered sports cars... and maybe also limits access to the fast lane/passing lane on the highway. In Massachusetts there are definitely bozos on the road who SHOULD NOT be allowed to drive in the passing lane.

Why do we need a single beer that's 44 ounces? It's fun.

I get your point.

Antique weapons are the same as new, checking wise.

Everywhere?

Take away something, crazy fucks will use something else. Oh, and there's the criminals that don't abide by our rules too ....

Obviously criminals are still going to violate the law. I get it.
You reduce the number of guns and maybe increase penalties for illegal transfer... maybe you can put a dent in the number of criminals with guns.

Gun crime doesn’t seem to me to be the driving issue... it seems to me that Mass Shootings are the big issue.
So how do we stop those...
1) Limit access to high capacity and semi-auto/automatic firearms.
2) Implement intervention in schools to look for and solve the issues that drive people to this extreme.

I’m NOT saying it’s all “guns” there are on other societal issues driving the problem.

Crazy fucks will find something else... but a crazy f*ck with a high capacity semi-auto is more dangerous than the same f*ck with a handgun who is more dangerous than a crazy f*ck with a sword. Yes, a crazy f*ck with a brick in his hand can still kill some people... but he won’t kill 40 people on a rampage, he’ll be stopped after 1 or 3. A crazy f*ck with a high capacity semi-auto can kill 40 people before people even realize what’s happening.

[jimboston]

I still don;t understand what gun-control . gun-right have to do with “making justice legal”?

How can there be justice for black people when only the white cops get guns?

I just realized....

I thought black cops got guns too... but clearly I’m mistaken.

[KoolBak]

Crazy f*ck with homemade bomb? Those are scary...

You made me learn something new, dammit Glad to know this however - ALL sales by LICENSED sellers HAVE to go thru the Federally mandated background check. Every gun show I've ever been to, sellers are dealers, so checks required. That I knew...

I did NOT know some states didn't regulate private sales; 28 of them do not. Oregon (my state) DOES, so, selfishly, thats all I know. I cannot sell my brother a gun without going to an FFL holder and having checks done...completely agree that ALL states should do this...why they don't, I have absolutely no clue. Fucking stupid.

There are SO many assault type weapons out there manno....sadly, never gonna fix that. They require me to turn in my $1,500 Ruger Mini-14 I got as a wedding gift 30 years ago, I would, angrily. Fucking tweakers with $200 AK / SKS aint gonna

Can we just design a corona that attacks evil people?

[Dukasaur]

I love to troll!

Jim, you're too easy to troll. How the hell did you survive Grade 8?

There ARE stringent checks you have to go through to buy ANY gun. Many states make you wait as well. Even MORE stringent requirements for carry. Private party sales are not legal without checks either.

And there's the rub. Private party sales may not be legal without checks, but there's no realistic enforcement. You can go online and watch videos of people showing how easy it is. Guys answer a classified ad, go to meet a seller. He doesn't ask to see their I.D., doesn't want to know who they are, just wants to see their money.

I'm willing to believe that the majority of licensed dealers are conscientious about their checks (although not all) but there's no way among the tens of millions of gun owners you can avoid the fact that a great many just don't give a shit about the rules, and nobody is seriously watching them.

I know you're a responsible gun owner; you've posted about it many times and shown pictures of your gun cabinet, etc. But you can't consider yourself typical. A lot of houses I've been in, guns are laying around, loaded, just accidents waiting to happen.

My father collected guns. There were always guns laying around, and my father's friends would come over and party and often they'd be out back, shooting various firearms, usually drunk or stoned or both. We were lucky that nobody shot themselves or decided to steal one of the guns. Just dumb luck.

I think I was 11 when I started hunting... without a license or any formal instruction. I was 12 the first time I came close to shooting someone. An older kid that was staying with us beat me up. I was in a rage and I went and got one of my father's guns and was going to shoot him. Luckily I came to my senses and didn't do it. It was the first time something like that happened, but not the last.

We had lots of friends in the States, and a lot of them had guns laying around. There was one guy, close friend of my parents, who was a decorated Korean war vet. He'd been shot and captured and tortured in Korea and he had serious anger management issues. PTSD, you'd say nowadays, but back then it wasn't called that. We just said he was "unstable". No fucking way this guy should have had lethal weapons, but he was a decorated vet. No way anyone in America was going to tell him he wasn't entitled to carry a gun. Every now and then he'd fly into a rage and threaten someone with an M-16, once in a while the cops were called, but no charges were laid. He's a decorated war vet, a respectable farmer, a man's home is his castle, blah blah blah.

One time they took me to the big rattlesnake hunt in Sinnamahoning, PA. The Sinnamahoning guys are all big NRA boosters. There were a lot of John Ashbrook posters. There were almost as many firearms as rattlesnakes. At some drunken barbeque, they let me fire an M-16. I was 13 or 14, I had no idea how much kick it had. I totally lost control of it, got bruises all over, sprayed the forest at random, nowhere near the Schlitz cans that served as targets. I could have killed someone, but the "adults" just pissed themselves laughing.

So, sure. You're a responsible gun owner. Don't assume everyone is. My experience is that there's a lot more homes with guns carelessly lying around than homes with guns in proper storage.

Take away something, crazy fucks will use something else.

Crazy fucks will find something else... but a crazy f*ck with a high capacity semi-auto is more dangerous than the same f*ck with a handgun who is more dangerous than a crazy f*ck with a sword. Yes, a crazy f*ck with a brick in his hand can still kill some people... but he won’t kill 40 people on a rampage, he’ll be stopped after 1 or 3. A crazy f*ck with a high capacity semi-auto can kill 40 people before people even realize what’s happening.

This. Sure, you can find a way to kill someone with a paper napkin if you're creative enough, but most people are not that creative or not that motivated. There's nothing better than a semiautomatic firearm for killing a lot of innocent people with a minimum of talent or motivation.

Oh, and there's the criminals that don't abide by our rules too ....

Of course. But criminals don't conjure firearms out of the air, or make them. Every illegal gun started its life as a fully legal gun in the hands of a legal gun owner. Then it was stolen by a burglar, or it was sold without proper safeguards, or it was inherited by kids who didn't share their old man's good judgement.

Legal gun owners always say, "Why are they coming after me? Why don't they go after the bad guys?" The misunderstanding here is that they ARE going after the bad guys. The bad guys ultimately get their supply from the good guys. Once the gun is being traded in some back alley, it's too late. It's just a hell of a lot easier to interrupt the process at the beginning, when it's still in the hands of someone who has a sign over his store and can be clearly identified. I know he feels attacked, but he's not the target, just the most visible link in the chain.

[2dimes]

Um, Oklahoma.

I'm not going to share his recipe but it was all easily obtainable things in a rental van.

[KoolBak]

Well Duk....dont know what kinda places you hang out in, but in the last...oh....40 years, I have NEVER seen "guns laying around loaded" with or without drunk stoned dumbshits. And I DO believe I have a HELL of a lot more exposure than you. Even questionable places I may have frequented in the past had their shit secured. Perhaps in....some other state....where there are excessively low IQs? I buy that.

We legal owners arent stupid dude. Of course I know what the goal is. However, no matter HOW the criminals got their damn guns, the responsible parties suffer. Just a fucking fact. And I do NOT have to like it.

In the 28 states that do not moniter private sales, hell yes its a problem. You, howevr, Negative Nancy, are saying that in states that DO, like mine, people are still running around buying and selling willy nilly with no management.

Wrong. Number one, there are NO services where you can list a gun for sale that arent monitored. No such thing as local classified ads for guns any more. I am in the market for several pieces I'd like to pick up and there is ONE real resource to search local private people selling. More heavily monitored than facefuk and if you were dumb enough to PM a person (all monitored) and ask for a good old boy transaction, you're reported and ousted.

ALL dealers WILL ALWAYS run checks....you inferred they may not. One mistake costs them their very hard to come by FFL and serious jail time.

Anyway....my 3 cents.

[mrswdk]

In the 28 states that do not moniter private sales

iow in most of the country