Woman killed by gender reveal party

[mrswdk]

The social media-type American who created the concept of a 'gender reveal party' has spoken out in the wake of a string of deadly (and stupid) gender reveal parties across the States, saying she doesn't think the gender of the baby matters anyway:

On Saturday, a woman died at a gender reveal party - a celebration announcing whether expectant parents will be having a boy or girl. A piece of shrapnel from a homemade explosive struck Pamela Kreimeyer, 56, in the head and killed her instantly.

Members of the Kreimeyer family had experimented with different kinds of explosive material, the Marion County Sheriff's office said. They built a contraption to release pink or blue powder revealing the gender of the new baby, which they aimed to film for social media.

But instead, the device exploded like a pipe bomb, sending pieces of metal into the air that hit Ms Kreimeyer, who was standing 45 feet (14 metres) away. Some pieces of debris flew more than 100 yards.

Last year, a man shot a target so it would explode with either pink or blue powder, but sparked a 47,000 acre (19,020) wildfire in Arizona that raged for a week.

...

Even the woman credited with inventing gender reveal parties, Jenna Karvunidis, has spoken of her "mixed feelings" towards the phenomenon.

"Who cares what gender the baby is?" Ms Karvunidis posted on Facebook in July. "Assigning focus on gender at birth leaves out so much of their potential and talents that have nothing to do with what's between their legs."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50207452

[Dukasaur]

I generally wait until they're old enough to turn tricks before revealing what gender they are. Before that, why would anybody care?

[jimboston]

I voted for option 6.

Though I like your creative ideas mrswdk.

The death of the woman was an accident caused by stupidity... tangentially but not directly related to the gender-reveal aspect of the party.

What if you do a gender reveal and years later your kid decides to change his/her gender?
Do you have to give the gifts back?
I say yes.

[mrswdk]

Thanks. I was torn between the strippers and the clowns, but in the end voted for clowns.

What if you do a gender reveal and years later your kid decides to change his/her gender?
Do you have to give the gifts back?
I say yes.

Yes. What if you announce you're having a boy - to great and rapturous congratulations and generous gift-giving - and then your child subsequently reneges on those congratulations by turning itself into a girl (which would have attracted much more modest gifts)? The reveal party would then be a fraudulent contract.

Your question about changing gender does however reveal the stupidest thing about gender reveal parties. They're not actually about gender (someone's behaviours and identify), they are about sex (someone's physical/biological characteristics). So these parties are actually sex reveal parties.

There is no way to know the baby's gender until it is old enough to start expressing its own gender identity, but by that point these Insta parents will probably have unfortunately already spent many years posing baby in gender-stereotyped outfits and settings, thereby social norming it into roles that its parents have decided on its behalf it should have. Poor baby.

[jimboston]

When did we all (as a society) agree to change the definition of the word gender?

At some point in the past gender and sex were essentially synonymous and then the words morphed.
I guess we are evolving?

[2dimes]

I am holding out. Gender equals male or female. Sex is something that slows down as you stay monogamous. The new definitions are bogus.

I'm ok with a person identifying as anything they like, just don't get upset about reality.

No, you can't compete with the biological ladies. Sure I'm born a bad white man.

[mrswdk]

Gender and sex have always been two different concepts. Just because people conflate them doesn't mean they cease to be different.

Do think think it's possible to be a feminine/effeminate man? If so then you understand the difference between gender and sex.

[2dimes]

Of course I believe you are effeminate. So that's your idea of sex? Ok then.

[mrswdk]

Femininity is gender. Male/man is sex.

[2dimes]

Keep this up I'll pm that link Saxi sent me. I'm afraid to click it but anything with unsee in it hosted on Coco Island is probably pretty grim. Then again you might be the original source so....

[jimboston]

Gender and sex have always been two different concepts. Just because people conflate them doesn't mean they cease to be different.

Do think think it's possible to be a feminine/effeminate man? If so then you understand the difference between gender and sex.

Do you know what this word means?

Are you a linguistic expert?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

According to this Wiki...

Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories.[1][2] However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender. Today, the distinction is followed in some contexts, especially the social sciences[5][6] and documents written by the World Health Organization (WHO).[3]

So the answer seems to be starting in 1955 but becoming more widespread in the 1970’s.

[2dimes]

So, what are the "grammatical catigories"?

Basically, biological sex does not exist anymore in Anglo society because you can't just call someone anything suggesting they are male or female unless they choose to identify as one of those.

Except perhaps Australia?

[mrswdk]

Gender and sex have always been two different concepts. Just because people conflate them doesn't mean they cease to be different.

Do think think it's possible to be a feminine/effeminate man? If so then you understand the difference between gender and sex.

Do you know what this word means?

Are you a linguistic expert?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

According to this Wiki...

Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories.[1][2] However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender. Today, the distinction is followed in some contexts, especially the social sciences[5][6] and documents written by the World Health Organization (WHO).[3]

So the answer seems to be starting in 1955 but becoming more widespread in the 1970’s.

Glad you and I agree that sex and gender are two different things. The wokeness is spreading!

[jimboston]

Gender and sex have always been two different concepts. Just because people conflate them doesn't mean they cease to be different.

Do think think it's possible to be a feminine/effeminate man? If so then you understand the difference between gender and sex.

Do you know what this word means?

Are you a linguistic expert?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

According to this Wiki...

Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories.[1][2] However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender. Today, the distinction is followed in some contexts, especially the social sciences[5][6] and documents written by the World Health Organization (WHO).[3]

So the answer seems to be starting in 1955 but becoming more widespread in the 1970’s.

Glad you and I agree that sex and gender are two different things. The wokeness is spreading!

I don’t know that I have agreed to anything.

I do know that it seems that society only started separating these ideas in the 1970’s.

I do believe men can have personalities or qualities that in the past we considered ‘feminine’.
(Sensitivity towards other people’s feelings, interest in gossip, jobs traditionally considered ‘female’ like homemaking or nursing, etc.)

I do believe women can have personalities or qualities that in the past we considered ‘manly’.
(Aggressiveness, assertiveness, interest in sports, jobs traditionally considered ‘male’ like mechanics or finance, etc.)

I don’t know if this means a man with some of these historically ‘feminine’ qualities has a feminine ‘gender’.

I think the problem is more about what society has considered traditionally female roles vs. what it’s considered traditionally male roles.

So I think people are POSSIBLY IN SOME CASES convoluting societal norms and gender.

[mrswdk]

Oh Lord, it's another game of 'just because I wrote A doesn't mean I meant A'.

Perhaps you could start by telling us whether you think sex and gender are two different things? Given that was the point of the exchange that you just waded into.

I do believe men can have personalities or qualities that in the past we considered ‘feminine’.

I do believe women can have personalities or qualities that in the past we considered ‘manly’ 'masculine'.

I don’t know if this means a man with some of these historically ‘feminine’ qualities has a feminine ‘gender’.

In response to your last sentence, gender is like skin pigment: in reality there are hundreds of different skin pigments that exist, each of which is its own different blend of yellow, red and blue, but if you really want to (and most people still seem to) you can create a few broad skin pigment categories and lump people into whichever one best describes them.

[jonesthecurl]

So, what are the "grammatical catigories"?

Basically, biological sex does not exist anymore in Anglo society because you can't just call someone anything suggesting they are male or female unless they choose to identify as one of those.

Except perhaps Australia?

presumably "grammatical" gender is in languages where gender is assigned to objects - eg in French, the word for a table is feminine, but the word for cheese is masculine.

[2dimes]

Because the cheese is usually on top and might smell bad?

[jimboston]

... gender is like skin pigment: in reality there are hundreds of different skin pigments that exist, each of which is its own different blend of yellow, red and blue, but if you really want to (and most people still seem to) you can create a few broad skin pigment categories and lump people into whichever one best describes them.

Maybe I don’t recognize the concept of gender at all?

I mean in the real world skin pigment (and race by association) is immediately visible and so society has decided to assign more importance to this genetic variance than it really deserves. Gender (if there is such a thing) is not as evident and so hasn’t garnered the attention that race has historically, but it does seem to be a cause for problems in more recent times.

I ask why?

Why do I need to know someone’s ‘gender’ (if there is such a thing) at all?

In both cases, we are just people and we in that regards we are all (or should all) be equal in law and in common decency/respect.

So if gender isn’t a thing, the only thing that matters is sex?

So a man whose sex is a man... well he should use a bathroom for men.

A man, whose sex is a man... should compete against other men in sporting competitions.

Gender (if such a thing exists beyond the idea of gender that we have created) is subjective and can change.
Sex really can’t. Yeah, there’s SRS but that doesn’t fully change everything that makes a man a man; and a woman a woman.
SRS must be supplemented with drugs and time... and even then nature is going to be ever present and is going to resist change.

[mrswdk]

Maybe I don’t recognize the concept of gender at all?

I mean in the real world skin pigment (and race by association) is immediately visible and so society has decided to assign more importance to this genetic variance than it really deserves. Gender (if there is such a thing) is not as evident and so hasn’t garnered the attention that race has historically, but it does seem to be a cause for problems in more recent times.

I ask why?

Why do I need to know someone’s ‘gender’ (if there is such a thing) at all?

In both cases, we are just people and we in that regards we are all (or should all) be equal in law and in common decency/respect.

Oh cool, jim is arguing the whole debate is irrelevant because these differences do not matter and we are all just humans. Good for him.

So if gender isn’t a thing, the only thing that matters is sex?

So a man whose sex is a man... well he should use a bathroom for men.

Spoke too soon

[jimboston]

Maybe I don’t recognize the concept of gender at all?

I mean in the real world skin pigment (and race by association) is immediately visible and so society has decided to assign more importance to this genetic variance than it really deserves. Gender (if there is such a thing) is not as evident and so hasn’t garnered the attention that race has historically, but it does seem to be a cause for problems in more recent times.

I ask why?

Why do I need to know someone’s ‘gender’ (if there is such a thing) at all?

In both cases, we are just people and we in that regards we are all (or should all) be equal in law and in common decency/respect.

Oh cool, jim is arguing the whole debate is irrelevant because these differences do not matter and we are all just humans. Good for him.

So if gender isn’t a thing, the only thing that matters is sex?

So a man whose sex is a man... well he should use a bathroom for men.

Spoke too soon

Where did I go wrong?

Are you saying men should use women’s bathrooms?

[mrswdk]

You started off talking about how we are all just people and there's no point thinking about these meaningless differences between us, then finished off by saying people of the same biological sex should use different bathrooms.

Guess you don't think those differences are so meaningless after all

[2dimes]

I really don't understand how sharing a toilet is thought to be a big bonus.

If I am in a cubical and some other man is in the room yet outside the cubical I tend to wait for the guy to leave before expressing my bowels to protect him from having to hear and smell what is about to happen.

You're telling me women want to come in there. Why?

[jimboston]

You started off talking about how we are all just people and there's no point thinking about these meaningless differences between us, then finished off by saying people of the same biological sex should use different bathrooms.

Guess you don't think those differences are so meaningless after all

I said people of the same biological sex should use the same bathrooms.

I didn’t say sex was meaningless. I said gender was meaningless because it’s just a man made concept.
Sex is a concept created by nature, and undeniable.
The concept of gender is fluid and i’ll defined and that’s half the reason it causes so many problems.

You ask a 100 different people to define gender and you’re going to get 100 different answers.
...even if you provided the definition you’re going to get resistance.

The whole idea of ‘gender reveal’ parties is a misnomer.
It should be ‘biological sex’ reveal parties.

[Dukasaur]

I really don't understand how sharing a toilet is thought to be a big bonus.

If I am in a cubical and some other man is in the room yet outside the cubical I tend to wait for the guy to leave before expressing my bowels to protect him from having to hear and smell what is about to happen.

You're telling me women want to come in there. Why?

No, not women. Men pretending to be women. There are cases where men pretend to be women in order to go to a woman's washroom and sneak a peek, or worse.

However, while right-wingers try to equate this kind of behaviour with trans-rights, I think that's a red herring.

Men have always had the ability to dress in drag and masquerade as women; sometimes for harmless and entertaining purposes and other times for nasty and criminal purposes. They don't need sex-reassignment surgery or fancy new pronouns for that. It's a purely political ploy by conservatives to weld these completely separate phenomena into one.

[2dimes]

If a man is dressing up as a woman to enter the ladies room for nefarious purposes. I agree that would be bad but, I don't think the sign on the door is going to slow them down.

I'm strictly wondering why people want mixed gender multiple toilet rooms?

I don't even want multiple toilet men's rooms, the facilities in public buildings should be a single toilet per well exhausted room with a locking door so you can poop in peace no matter what you are. The signs can say toilet. All genders welcome.

I also like a little divider between urinals. They can be in a slightly larger room with no door. Just a zig zag entrance so you don't have to watch people taking a whiz.

Then mount the sinks in the public opened hall way so the filthy people that never wash their hands can not touch the existing exit door handles, trapping me with my clean hands and also they can easily be identified so sanitary civilized people can avoid them.