Conquer Club

Hong Kongers Wave US flags, praise Trump

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderator: Community Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: Hong Kongers Wave US flags, praise Trump

Postby mrswdk on Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:33 am

Dukasaur wrote:
mrswdk wrote:The UK didn’t make Hong Kongers British citizens because they never were British citizens. They were people born in a colony owned by the UK. If people in Hong Kong think the British government ever looked at them as equals to someone born in Manchester or Edinburgh then they are kidding themselves. By the time the UK handed Hong Kong back it had been letting all British people directly vote for their government representatives for something like 60-70 years. It never even came close to giving Hong Kongers that same privilege.

You're too young to remember, but I still remember when the inside front cover of my Canadian passport carried the words "A Canadian citizen is a British subject" and the inside back cover said something along the lines of "in places where a Canadian consulate is not available you may always seek protection at a British consulate or High Commission."

The Commonwealth used to mean something. Maybe it doesn't any more.


The key word there being ‘subject’ (not ‘citizen’), as in ‘subjected to the authority and control of a higher power’. Subjects from Hong Kong didn’t have the same rights to live and work in the UK that British people had. They didn’t get to choose their leaders. They were not equals.
Lieutenant mrswdk
 
Posts: 14898
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Red Swastika School

Re: Hong Kongers Wave US flags, praise Trump

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:31 pm

The UK is a small island that somehow conquered 1/4 of the planet Earth and then abandoned it all. I think it's unrealistic to expect it to cram 25% of the world's population inside its borders.

Canada and Australia have lots of empty space that needs populating. If the 7MM Hong Kongers think living in the PRC is worse than living 50 miles outside Yellowknife, Canada should relocate them.

I actually think the U.S. should have a special type of resident visa for people willing to move to the Unorganized Borough of Alaska. The terms of the visa would be they could not exit the Unorganized Borough for three years after arrival except for medical treatment and, even then, they would be limited to organized Alaska. There was a similar suggestion to move Jews to Alaska during WWII but then the USG decided that even Auschwitz was preferable to Unorganized Alaska. But populating the Alaskan interior to the point that it could be organized and governable would be a great benefit to the US. We should let the whole nation of El Salvador relocate to the Alaskan interior if they want to come to the US.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
User avatar
Corporal saxitoxin
 
Posts: 13400
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:01 am

Re: Hong Kongers Wave US flags, praise Trump

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:32 pm

mrswdk wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
mrswdk wrote:The UK didn’t make Hong Kongers British citizens because they never were British citizens. They were people born in a colony owned by the UK. If people in Hong Kong think the British government ever looked at them as equals to someone born in Manchester or Edinburgh then they are kidding themselves. By the time the UK handed Hong Kong back it had been letting all British people directly vote for their government representatives for something like 60-70 years. It never even came close to giving Hong Kongers that same privilege.

You're too young to remember, but I still remember when the inside front cover of my Canadian passport carried the words "A Canadian citizen is a British subject" and the inside back cover said something along the lines of "in places where a Canadian consulate is not available you may always seek protection at a British consulate or High Commission."

The Commonwealth used to mean something. Maybe it doesn't any more.


The key word there being ‘subject’ (not ‘citizen’), as in ‘subjected to the authority and control of a higher power’. Subjects from Hong Kong didn’t have the same rights to live and work in the UK that British people had. They didn’t get to choose their leaders. They were not equals.

You're right that they were not equals. And you're mostly right that they didn't get to choose their leaders. Most of the colonies became self-governing during the 20th century, but Hong Kong didn't, largely because of the military threat from China.

About the right to live and work in the U.K., however, you're wrong. From the inception of the Empire until 1962, all citizens of all British possessions were treated as British subjects who had the right to live and work in all other British possessions. When the laws evolved, though, moving from one continent to another involved an arduous journey by ship which meant that relatively few people undertook it. In the 20th Century, ships got faster and faster, and then air travel began, and the trips got less and less arduous each year. People in Britain started to fret about being overwhelmed by immigrants from the colonies. Nonetheless, the right of all British subjects to live and work in Britain was not encumbered until 1962, with the Commonwealth Immigrants Act.

Here's the pdf from the Home Office. The relevant part about the Right of Abode starts on Page 18 of the pdf.

After 1962, British subjects outside of Britain no longer had the unrestricted right to live and work in Britain, but at that point it was still relatively easy for them to gain it (For white people, basically a rubber stamp. For non-whites a few extra rules were added as discouragement, but it was still relatively easy overall.) The real hammer blow didn't come until the British Nationality Act of 1981, when the whole concept Commonwealth was essentially crushed and citizenships in the various Commonwealth countries were irretrievably severed.

Anyway, that's all interesting and worth knowing, but still not the central point.

mrswdk wrote:The key word there being ‘subject’ (not ‘citizen’), as in ‘subjected to the authority and control of a higher power’.


... and the key corollary to "subjected to the authority" is "under the protection of." This is the central moral point of government. When one surrenders one's autonomy to a higher power, one gains the protection of that power. Otherwise there is no point to the whole exercise.

People who were subject to the British Crown have a right to expect protection by the British Crown. The protection due to the people of Hong Kong was withdrawn from them. These people were born and raised as British subjects, and then they were told, "sorry, defending your rights will be too expensive for us, we'll just toss you to the PRC, accompanied of course by their completely unenforceable and worthless promises to respect the rights you had." This was a betrayal, an abrogation of duty. That was my only point.
“‎Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.”
― Voltaire
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Dukasaur
Community Team
Community Team
 
Posts: 28108
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:49 pm
Location: Beautiful Niagara
32

Re: Hong Kongers Wave US flags, praise Trump

Postby mrswdk on Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:30 am

It’s not really a moral point to say ‘we own you and so therefore we will make sure no one else comes along and wipes you out’.

And now the UK doesn’t own Hong Kong, and has no business butting into China’s internal affairs. If a British citizen was detained in China then the UK Government would have a role to play in liaising with and supporting them. When China wants to change its internal laws and political systems, that is not the UK’s business.
Lieutenant mrswdk
 
Posts: 14898
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Red Swastika School

Re: Hong Kongers Wave US flags, praise Trump

Postby mrswdk on Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:34 am

The Hong Kong riots, cheered on by selfish and ignorant Western students and duplicitous Western politicians keen to undermine China, have yet again escalated into serious violence and chaos that has ground the city to a halt:

Thousands have joined unplanned protests in Hong Kong after the territory's government announced a face mask ban, effective at midnight (16:00 GMT).

Chief executive Carrie Lam invoked a colonial-era emergency law in a bid to quell months of anti-government unrest.

The ban comes after an escalation of violence during protests on 1 October, when an officer shot a demonstrator.

Protesters immediately took to the streets after the ban was announced.

Many left work early to join the spontaneous demonstrations. Some furious protesters blocked roads, torched Chinese flags and vandalised stations and businesses, as police fired rounds of tear gas.

The territory's Mass Transit Railway (MTR) announced a full service suspension of all buses and trains. A spokesman told the BBC this was due to vandalism and attacks on staff.

Image


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-49939173

Will there be a Nobel Prize on offer for the first protester to murder a police officer in cold blood?
Lieutenant mrswdk
 
Posts: 14898
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Red Swastika School

Re: Hong Kongers Wave US flags, praise Trump

Postby jimboston on Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:32 pm

Looks like China may have to make a decision...

Murder some of its’ citizens or actually institute democratic reform.

Will there be a Nobel Prize for a Chinese Leader willing to stand up to Party Bosses?
User avatar
Private 1st Class jimboston
 
Posts: 5379
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:45 pm
Location: Boston (Area), Massachusetts; U.S.A.

Re: Hong Kongers Wave US flags, praise Trump

Postby NomadPatriot on Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:23 pm

jimboston wrote:Looks like China may have to make a decision...

Murder some of its’ citizens or actually institute democratic reform.

Will there be a Nobel Prize for a Chinese Leader willing to stand up to Party Bosses?


nobel..?
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class NomadPatriot
 
Posts: 2717
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:33 pm
Location: Self-Sufficient Fortress America

Re: Hong Kongers Wave US flags, praise Trump

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:00 pm

NomadPatriot wrote:
jimboston wrote:Looks like China may have to make a decision...

Murder some of its’ citizens or actually institute democratic reform.

Will there be a Nobel Prize for a Chinese Leader willing to stand up to Party Bosses?


nobel..?


Would you rather give him a Pulitzer?
“‎Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.”
― Voltaire
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Dukasaur
Community Team
Community Team
 
Posts: 28108
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:49 pm
Location: Beautiful Niagara
32

Re: Hong Kongers Wave US flags, praise Trump

Postby NomadPatriot on Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:14 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
NomadPatriot wrote:
jimboston wrote:Looks like China may have to make a decision...

Murder some of its’ citizens or actually institute democratic reform.

Will there be a Nobel Prize for a Chinese Leader willing to stand up to Party Bosses?


nobel..?


Would you rather give him a Pulitzer?


I will give him a pat on the back for doing his job...
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class NomadPatriot
 
Posts: 2717
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:33 pm
Location: Self-Sufficient Fortress America

Previous

Return to Acceptable Content

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users