Betsy Ross Vampire Queen

[HitRed]

Some seamstresses will never rest in peace.

[NomadPatriot]

The Kaepernick effect

say the USA is offensive, more people become patriotic

[Bernie Sanders]

It's the capitalist effect.

Besides, these shoes are made outside the USA.

Where's the patriotism in foreign made shoes?

[riskllama]

burning them in a fit of recreational outrage, perhaps?

[NomadPatriot]

burning them in a fit of recreational outrage, perhaps?

" 'Bern'ing them in a fit of recreational outrage"..
*fixed it

[jimboston]

I don’t understand.

I don’t understand how the ‘Betsy Ross Flag’ is a racist symbol.

First of all, I never knew it was called the ‘Betsy Ross Flag’... to me it was also just ‘our first flag’ or ‘13 States Flag’.
... but the naming of it is a different issue.

——-

So can someone please explain to me how it’s racist?

... because it was the flag of our country when slavery existed?

If that’s true then every symbol that predates the mid-1800’s is racist.
If that’s true the cross must also be a racist symbol because it existed while slavery was legal, and surely the mainstream religions supported slavery for most of its’ existence.

You can keep going with this logic.. the Masonic symbol is racist, pretty much every men’s group symbol would be racist unless (I suppose) the group specifically opposed slavery. I’m assuming the logo’s for the Army and Navy predate the Civil War... so those are racist symbols too.

Listen, I don’t look at the 13 States Flag as see a racist symbol. I see a symbol that stands for freedom and equal rights. Yes I know we didn’t always live up to this ideal, but we’ve moved and continue to move in the right direction.

This ass saying this flag is racist is bullshit.

Just because some people who are racists use the symbol does NOT change it’s meaning for me.
I have shirts with the Marvel Punisher logo, and I have heard some white supremacists use a similar logo... but I’m not giving up my Punisher shirt.

I can understand how you can make an argument that the Confederate Flag is a racist... at least there’s a direct connection between that flag and a State/Country that was actively fighting to keep slavery a thing. I see that flag and I think “Dukes of Hazard”... so to me it’s not racist... but at least I can understand how it can be seen as such.

I can not see a similar logical connection with the 13 States Flag.

[Symmetry]

I don’t understand.

I don’t understand how the ‘Betsy Ross Flag’ is a racist symbol.

First of all, I never knew it was called the ‘Betsy Ross Flag’... to me it was also just ‘our first flag’ or ‘13 States Flag’.
... but the naming of it is a different issue.

——-

So can someone please explain to me how it’s racist?

... because it was the flag of our country when slavery existed?

If that’s true then every symbol that predates the mid-1800’s is racist.
If that’s true the cross must also be a racist symbol because it existed while slavery was legal, and surely the mainstream religions supported slavery for most of its’ existence.

You can keep going with this logic.. the Masonic symbol is racist, pretty much every men’s group symbol would be racist unless (I suppose) the group specifically opposed slavery. I’m assuming the logo’s for the Army and Navy predate the Civil War... so those are racist symbols too.

Listen, I don’t look at the 13 States Flag as see a racist symbol. I see a symbol that stands for freedom and equal rights. Yes I know we didn’t always live up to this ideal, but we’ve moved and continue to move in the right direction.

This ass saying this flag is racist is bullshit.

Just because some people who are racists use the symbol does NOT change it’s meaning for me.
I have shirts with the Marvel Punisher logo, and I have heard some white supremacists use a similar logo... but I’m not giving up my Punisher shirt.

I can understand how you can make an argument that the Confederate Flag is a racist... at least there’s a direct connection between that flag and a State/Country that was actively fighting to keep slavery a thing. I see that flag and I think “Dukes of Hazard”... so to me it’s not racist... but at least I can understand how it can be seen as such.

I can not see a similar logical connection with the 13 States Flag.

Sure, I can give it a go. It's a symbol of a slave state the masquerades as a symbol of freedom. It represents a past that seems nostalgic for some, but to others is a legacy of slavery and racism. Those stars, each represent a state that said that you can be bought and sold based on the colour of your skin. The stripes, they each represent a state where you had no rights based on your skin colour.

I ain't looking to portray the US as a demon- hell. take a look at British history after you've looked into this. You might well be even more appalled.

[HitRed]

Only one colony allowed Catholics (Maryland). Still don't see the flag as an issue.

[Symmetry]

Only one colony allowed Catholics (Maryland). Still don't see the flag as an issue.

Do you actually not understand the issue? It sort of seems like that you don't have any understanding of the history at all.

[Symmetry]

What's history

Well that's kind of an interesting dodge- I'd recommend EH Carr's "What is History?" as a starting point.

I guess you kind of answered my earlier question already though.

[saxitoxin]

At a recent demonstration by anti-Brexit protesters they displayed flags that represented a state that didn't allow women to vote.

Shame on the women hating, pro-rape Anti-Brexit movement.

[mookiemcgee]

[Symmetry]

At a recent demonstration by anti-Brexit protesters they displayed flags that represented a state that didn't allow women to vote.

Shame on the women hating, pro-rape Anti-Brexit movement.

I am outraged. We should be outraged together.

[Symmetry]

When you suck with words, just post a huge image file someone else put together, claim it as your own, and be done.

[saxitoxin]

At a recent demonstration by anti-Brexit protesters they displayed flags that represented a state that didn't allow women to vote.

Shame on the women hating, pro-rape Anti-Brexit movement.

I am outraged.

Yeah, but that's your resting state. Like a sloth saying it's slow.

I'm seeking more relevant outrage partners. Might check-out Craigslist.

[Symmetry]

At a recent demonstration by anti-Brexit protesters they displayed flags that represented a state that didn't allow women to vote.

Shame on the women hating, pro-rape Anti-Brexit movement.

I am outraged.

Yeah, but that's your resting state. Like a sloth saying it's slow.

I'm seeking more relevant outrage partners. Might check-out Craigslist.

Of course you are. Bon chance, buddy.

[mookiemcgee]

When you suck with words, just post a huge image file someone else put together, claim it as your own, and be done.

or as the rest of the world knows it "sharing a meme".

[jimboston]

Sure, I can give it a go. It's a symbol of a slave state the masquerades as a symbol of freedom. It represents a past that seems nostalgic for some, but to others is a legacy of slavery and racism. Those stars, each represent a state that said that you can be bought and sold based on the colour of your skin. The stripes, they each represent a state where you had no rights based on your skin colour.

So a few things...

1) Yes slavery was technically legal in all 13 States at the time the flag was created, but it really wasn’t practiced in most of the northern states, and within a decade of the flag’s creation it had been made illegal in several of those same states.

2) It’s not a symbol of a slave State masquerading as a symbol of freedom. It’s a symbol of freedom. Granted, the freedom was imperfect... not just to slaves but also to women, religious minorities, homosexuals, and also poor white men. The ‘freedom’ we currently enjoy is still imperfect. That does not negate the power of the symbol. The symbol helps drive us and remind us to continue working for a better ‘more free’ and ‘more equal’ world. Allowing a minority of people to steal this symbol and corrupt it for their own unfree/unequal purposes diminishes us.... by ceding ground to these Haters we give them more power. We let them take that symbol which then allows them another way to communicate their hate. I say we refuse to cede this symbol to them. We keep it and reinforce it’s true meaning and we use it to expand love for all... that makes the world better.

3) If this symbol can be stolen and used to represent hate then any/all symbols can (are) also corrupted.

What about my Marvel Punisher symbol.... does that mean by wearing that shirt I’m a racist? NO!

What about the cross? The church and many people/countries in the name of the church have used the cross symbol while committing all sorts of crimes against humanity... including slavery, genocide, murder, rape, child molestation, book burning/knowledge destruction, etc. So why doesn’t that symbol also represent hate?

I’m not saying we should forget our past.... we shouldn’t.... but the negatives of the past don’t automatically outweigh the positives of the past. It’s very possible that Great Britain would not have outlawed slavery as early as it did if the South was still part of its’ territory... if the US hadn’t broken away (thereby creating that flag) then it’s quite possible Great Britain would have resisted outlawing slavery because it would be in their interest to perpetuate it. So just that possibility alone is enough to call the flag anti-slavery.

[Symmetry]

Sure, I can give it a go. It's a symbol of a slave state the masquerades as a symbol of freedom. It represents a past that seems nostalgic for some, but to others is a legacy of slavery and racism. Those stars, each represent a state that said that you can be bought and sold based on the colour of your skin. The stripes, they each represent a state where you had no rights based on your skin colour.

So a few things...

1) Yes slavery was technically legal in all 13 States at the time the flag was created, but it really wasn’t practiced in most of the northern states, and within a decade of the flag’s creation it had been made illegal in several of those same states.

2) It’s not a symbol of a slave State masquerading as a symbol of freedom. It’s a symbol of freedom. Granted, the freedom was imperfect... not just to slaves but also to women, religious minorities, homosexuals, and also poor white men. The ‘freedom’ we currently enjoy is still imperfect. That does not negate the power of the symbol. The symbol helps drive us and remind us to continue working for a better ‘more free’ and ‘more equal’ world. Allowing a minority of people to steal this symbol and corrupt it for their own unfree/unequal purposes diminishes us.... by ceding ground to these Haters we give them more power. We let them take that symbol which then allows them another way to communicate their hate. I say we refuse to cede this symbol to them. We keep it and reinforce it’s true meaning and we use it to expand love for all... that makes the world better.

3) If this symbol can be stolen and used to represent hate then any/all symbols can (are) also corrupted.

What about my Marvel Punisher symbol.... does that mean by wearing that shirt I’m a racist? NO!

What about the cross? The church and many people/countries in the name of the church have used the cross symbol while committing all sorts of crimes against humanity... including slavery, genocide, murder, rape, child molestation, book burning/knowledge destruction, etc. So why doesn’t that symbol also represent hate?

I’m not saying we should forget our past.... we shouldn’t.... but the negatives of the past don’t automatically outweigh the positives of the past. It’s very possible that Great Britain would not have outlawed slavery as early as it did if the South was still part of its’ territory... if the US hadn’t broken away (thereby creating that flag) then it’s quite possible Great Britain would have resisted outlawing slavery because it would be in their interest to perpetuate it. So just that possibility alone is enough to call the flag anti-slavery.

1) Slavery was legal and practised in all 13 states circa 1777. I'm glad that you mostly accept that, apart from some waffling.

2) That, given, it's not really a symbol of freedom for everyone- I think you're starting to accept that, at best, it was a symbol of freedom for the few- not the many,

3) Maybe don't put all your faith in symbols. Rather put your faith in the good things they represent.

As for the rest- what are the positives of slavery that you think I should be balancing?

[jimboston]

1) Slavery was legal and practised in all 13 states circa 1777. I'm glad that you mostly accept that, apart from some waffling.

2) That, given, it's not really a symbol of freedom for everyone- I think you're starting to accept that, at best, it was a symbol of freedom for the few- not the many,

3) Maybe don't put all your faith in symbols. Rather put your faith in the good things they represent.

As for the rest- what are the positives of slavery that you think I should be balancing?

1) It was legal but mostly out of favor in many Northern States in 1776. Within a decade, and prior to the signing of the Constitution, it was made illegal in most of the North.

2) It’s a symbol of Freedom to the VAST majority of average Americans. Most of whom have no idea any group is trying/has taken this awesome symbol and corrupted it with their vile hatred. Symbols are like words. and they only mean what we AGREE they mean. If the vast majority of people think a word means one thing... guess what, that’s what it means.

Now if a minority are able to convince the majority that a word means something different, then the meaning of the word changes. You accept that language evolves yes?

I am attempting to resist this change in meaning of the 13 States Flag because I think it has more value if we keep its’ original meaning.

I think Colin Kaepernick’s actions, essentially ceding this symbol to the racists, are counter-productive to (what I am assuming is) his ultimate goal of racial equality and harmony. His motives may be pure, his goals may be laudable, but ultimately his ceding this image to racists is a mistake.

3) I personally don’t put ‘so much faith in symbols’. That said, most people / the masses do put faith in symbols... at least in the sense that they CAN be powerful tools to communicate ideas quickly. Most social movements, good or bad, use symbols to communicate their ideas and goals. If we cede valuable symbols to the racists we lose a tool and give them a tool... it’s lose-lose.

Some symbols are inherently racist, I’m thinking something like a cartoon image of blackface or something. Obviously these are inherently racist and we can’t change their meaning.

Some symbols are not inherently racist, but have been associated with racism for so long that the ship has sailed and we’re not reclaiming them anytime soon. I’m thinking the swastika. It’s not inherently racist in it’s design, but it’s meaning is pretty much locked up... so we can’t use these images.

Some symbols may be contested and have multiple meanings. I say we should fight to clam these images and symbols for righteous causes.


As for the rest, I never said there were positives associated with slavery... if I misspoke or made a typo please forgive me... but I think you’re Pulling A Nomad on me here.

[Symmetry]

Thanks for backing down on point 1.

So:
2) I don't necessarily agree that it's a symbol of freedom for the vast majority you claim. I'm open to your stats on this claim though, but I suspect your stance is more rooted in the the idea that minorities have no rights to define themselves.

3) I accept your point, but there's only so much ignorance combined with views. At some point, it becomes ridiculous to argue away these things. I s**t you not- I actually had a mod try to pretend that a poster with SS in his screen-name, and who was posting about how his name was a tribute to Nazi generals, actually try and say that he thought it meant Southern State.

Thanks for the reply

[jimboston]

Thanks for backing down on point 1.

So:
2) I don't necessarily agree that it's a symbol of freedom for the vast majority you claim. I'm open to your stats on this claim though, but I suspect your stance is more rooted in the the idea that minorities have no rights to define themselves.

3) I accept your point, but there's only so much ignorance combined with views. At some point, it becomes ridiculous to argue away these things. I s**t you not- I actually had a mod try to pretend that a poster with SS in his screen-name, and who was posting about how his name was a tribute to Nazi generals, actually try and say that he thought it meant Southern State.

Thanks for the reply

1) I didn’t cede this point.

You are right that slavery existed in 1977 when the flag was created. What you are ignoring is nuance. 1977 was the beginning of the end of slavery in the United States. I know if took another 100 years (almost), and i’m not saying that’s cool. I am saying it could be worse. Great Britain didn’t make slavery illegal till 1833. The creation of the US, which required a flag, enabled several Northern States to abolish slavery 50 years earlier.

2) I can’t find stats. I think no one has yet done a study because the controversy is so new. The fact that it’s new supports my opinion.

3) Thanks for ceding this point. One idiot mod in a stoopid Conquer Club forum doesn’t mean I have to give up my symbols.