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Tiananmen Square protests 1989

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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby jusplay4fun on Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:26 am

And again, symm, you are FULL of SHIT. PERIOD. Is that cogent enough for you, symm?

You continue to troll and try to antagonize others without offering anything significant. You continue to provoke and nitpick others. That is the behavior of a TROLL.

QED.

BTW: you did not even correctly cite my source for my report. Again, you're full of CRAP.


Symmetry wrote:Nope- here are some of the ways that you got caught:

It was that you suddenly had a command of language far beyond your capabilities. It made me think "Jp4 is just not capable of crafting that kind of sentence". Maybe as a one off, sure, but a few in a row? That ain't you. You're more the kind of person who would try to use someone else's words to troll people.

The second sign of your plagiarism was of course that you were obviously entirely ignorant of the subject you were plagiarising.

I mean, really, dude, did you really expect to post a thread about this without the iconic picture and have nobody call you out? Mate, it's literally mentioned in the stuff that you copy-pasted as if your own.

You didn't even read your own plagiarised post!

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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby mrswdk on Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:41 am

jusplay4fun wrote:And again, symm, you are FULL of SHIT. PERIOD.


That is the behavior of a TROLL.


Again, you're full of CRAP.


See, look at this Sym. jpmorgan has mastered the art of constructing short sentences with clear meaning and no grammatical errors. Maybe you should cut him some slack and at least concede that he might have googled that CBS article unaided?
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby 2dimes on Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:55 am

If JP runs him over with a tank I might have cake. I'm kind of on reduced calories, so I am craving sweets anyway.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby mrswdk on Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:00 am

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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby 2dimes on Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:05 am

Those look like chocolate covered strawberries which I would usually prefer but right now I want some nice Black Forrest Cake.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby mrswdk on Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:08 am

Those are a complex bake. jpmorgan might need to do something with a bit more flair than a simple hit-and-run. Maybe he could launch the tank off a ramp while Sym stands on the bull's eye of a big target?
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:09 am

mrswdk wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:Over they years I've read, watched, or listened to at least 50 interviews with Tiannanmen survivors. Five of the fifty were just this week, so it's fresh in my mind. I don't think a single one of the fifty said "urban dwellers were not properly benefiting from economic reforms."


And yet, that is the reason why some urban workers and soldiers supported the protests, and why the government brought in soldiers from the countryside to help end them.

Do you think it was different with any of the other examples? Do you think the rising in Azerbaijan would have succeeded if they were not supported by a great many ordinary people, many of whom lacked any high revolutionary ideals and were simply angry about their general lot in life? Do you think the Velvet Revolution would have succeeded if not for ordinary people simply staying home and refusing to work, at least some of which was driven by ordinary self-interest rather than any ideological motive? Ditto for Yugoslavia, Ukraine, Berlin, etc., etc.

Revolutions are usually spearheaded by some young people with high-minded idealistic dreams. In most cases the spear also has a long shaft, which is a great many common working people who passively or sometimes not so passively support the spearhead without actually giving a great deal of thought to its ideological content.

Everything I've read, seen, or heard supports the idea that the students in Tienanmen Square were every bit as idealistic as their counterparts in other places. Again and again, in interviews both during and after the event, they return to the themes of ending censorship (including Party control of newspapers), ending corruption, making the Chinese government more transparent, and general democratic rights. Saying that some of their passive supporters outside the Square may have had more mundane motives for supporting them doesn't change any of that.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby mrswdk on Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:45 am

In interviews that were presumably held with people who have since left the country and are willing/keen to air their views in Western media. Those sorts of exiles are always rabidly anti anti (like how if you ask Edward Snowden and Julian Assange what they think of the US Government, you're unlikely to get a response that reflects what many people in the US think).

The UK's Guardian reckons the protests were about 'greater freedom of speech, economic freedoms and curbs on corruption' (here). There are plenty of sources that say similar. Even you put 'democracy' fourth on your list of your things. They were not 'pro-democracy protests', they were protests within which some people called for an American or European style system of representative democracy to be put in place.

In any case, as I said previously in this thread I think a lot of people commenting are confused about what democracy even is anyway. The Western media hack view is that 'voting = democracy, not voting = no democracy', which is incredibly over simplistic. Democracy is enshrined in the Chinese government's constitutions and expressed values, which it enacts like this - speak to the public, find out what they want, enact policies that will meet their needs/address their concerns. The main difference between the Chinese system and the system in, say, America is that in China representatives are not chosen by a public ballot.

Incidentally, that Chinese 'consultative democracy' is actually the same way that the vast majority of government policies get designed and implemented in countries like the US and UK as well. The UK's health service just published its plan for its next 10 years of spending and service transformation. None of the content of that was put to a public vote or discussed in the UK Parliament (and actually this current plan didn't even go to the Prime Minister's office for approval). The same happens all across government. Most people in the country don't know about most government policies and they certainly don't vote on them.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby 2dimes on Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:58 am

Disagree. I think most people distrust their government in the US. They just feel it is more in check there because of all the fire arms.

Of course unless I have the right to an A-10, personally I feel threatened by a tank.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby jusplay4fun on Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:59 pm

What are we to make of these protests against the Chinese Government?

Why Are People Protesting in Hong Kong?

[Game]https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/10/world/asia/hong-kong-china-protests-explained.html[/Game]

Why is Beijing meddling in Hong Kong?

The pressure reflects a broader tightening of controls across China under President Xi Jinping, who came to power in 2012 and has pursued critics with increasing boldness.

Hong Kong is an obvious target because it has a vocal community of pro-democracy activists and lawmakers. Tens of thousands took part in a movement demanding free elections that seized control of downtown streets for 11 weeks in late 2014, and large crowds attend an annual vigil that commemorates Beijing’s 1989 crackdown on Tiananmen Square.

But the Basic Law guarantees that Chinese authorities cannot stifle dissent in Hong Kong with an iron fist, as they do across the mainland and in the autonomous regions of Tibet and Xinjiang. Analysts say that has forced Beijing to chip away at the independence of Hong Kong’s institutions by other means — for example, by pressing the extradition plan.

The plan has sparked petitions from people across Hong Kong who fear they could end up in a mainland legal system where the Communist Party routinely prosecutes dissidents and others for political reasons.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:13 pm

I wonder if there will be a thread marking the 200th anniversary of the Peterloo peaceful protests.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby mrswdk on Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:38 am

No. When will you learn that it doesn't matter how bad the atrocity is, as long as the person committing it is white?
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby 2dimes on Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:48 am

I don't know if justplay found a tank or not but I had a slice of Black Forest cake from one of the local bakeries ranked highly by Google reviews. I'd give it a six.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:06 pm

mrswdk wrote:No. When will you learn that it doesn't matter how bad the atrocity is, as long as the person committing it is white?


The last couple of weeks have seen ridiculous atrocities in Sudan that have led to demonstrations which led to further atrocities which led to the banning of internet.

Yet, nothing gets covered by the media. I don't think this is a racial issue.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby jusplay4fun on Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:54 pm

Now where is all this going? The Chinese Government continues to clamp down on and put significant limits on the Freedom of its citizens.

An Emboldened China No Longer Cares What Its Critics Think

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/14/world/china-detentions-canadians-human-rights.html?module=inline

BEIJING — Two Canadians detained in an apparent act of prosecutorial retaliation. A prominent pastor, an internationally renowned Chinese photographer and China’s top international police officer all held by the authorities. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims in the western region of Xinjiang locked up in camps for mass indoctrination.

These and the detentions of many others — including billionaires, lawyers, even the American children of a Chinese fugitive — suggest that the ruling Communist Party no longer cares much about the risk to its international stature posed by harsh actions against its opponents.

Already there are signs that this hard-line approach might be costing China support overseas, alienating even the moderate voices in the United States and elsewhere who have for decades argued that engaging the Chinese leadership is vastly preferable to confronting it.

“It undermines the work of those who have tried to be neutral,” said Kerry Brown, a professor at King’s College, London, and author of a 2016 biography of China’s leader, “C.E.O., China: The Rise of Xi Jinping.”

“All sorts of people — academics, business people and others — will be wary now: ‘This can happen to anyone.’ It creates a corrosive sense of doubt.”

China’s ruling Communist Party has never shown much forbearance for those it views as critics and it has long bristled at international criticism of its actions — its treatment of Tibet, say, or the bloody crackdown on protesters on Tiananmen Square in 1989. Even so, there was a time when internal qualms about international blowback restrained its behavior, or at least factored into the public defense of its actions.
That political calculus has now clearly shifted.

In all of the cases cited above, China has dismissed widespread international opprobrium. And it has fought back. In the state media, in diplomatic channels and in international organizations like the United Nations Human Rights Council, the Chinese have accused critics of interfering in its internal affairs or wielding double standards to check a rising economic, diplomatic and military power.

Observers say the timing of the investigation into the two Canadians this week suggested it was retaliation for the arrest in Canada of Meng Wanzhou, a senior executive of Huawei, the Chinese tech company that American prosecutors have accused of committing bank fraud.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby jusplay4fun on Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:31 pm

and protests continue:

Hong Kong protests: All the latest updates

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/06/ ... 25753.html

Tens of thousands of people surrounded Hong Kong's government complex in opposition to a proposed extradition law that would allow criminal suspects to be sent to mainland China for trial.
Hong Kong police fired rubber-coated bullets, water cannon, and canisters of tear gas at goggle-wearing demonstrators, who threw plastic bottles and set up metal barricades with umbrellas to protect from pepper spray.
The police commissioner called it a "riot situation".
Here are the latest updates:

Thursday, June 13:
Hong Kong authorities shut government offices due to protests
Hong Kong authorities have shut government offices in the city's financial district for the rest of the week after a day of violence over an extradition bill that would allow people to be sent to mainland China for trial.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:52 am

Excellent Protest:
Click image to enlarge.
image


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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby mrswdk on Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:05 pm

Image

>Protesters ask for either democracy or death
>Army gives them death
>Everyone bitches and complains about it for the next 30 years

This is why it sucks being a leader. People are never satisfied.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby Bernie Sanders on Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:27 pm

I say, let the chinese murder each other.

Fuk, we do it in Amerikkka.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby jusplay4fun on Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:55 pm

So you admit the Chinese government killed many of its citizens that were protesting during this time period. Right?

mrswdk wrote:Image

>Protesters ask for either democracy or death
>Army gives them death
>Everyone bitches and complains about it for the next 30 years

This is why it sucks being a leader. People are never satisfied.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby mrswdk on Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:30 am

I admit that the sun is shining in London this morning and you’re being a buzz kill.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby jimboston on Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:19 am

So it’s certainly true that different cultures with different histories, values, languages, and modes of thoughts, etc. will both want/prefer and be able handle/control different forms of gov’t.

The arrogance of most people in ‘the West’ is that ‘we’ feel our form of government is ‘the best’ and therefore every other person/nation on the face of the planet must also want THE EXACT SAME THING. This has gotten ‘us’ into trouble over and over again. Sometime we try to ‘help’ countries become ‘democratic’ only to find that this imposed form of gov’t doesn’t take. Other times we have ‘helped’ establish a democratic system only to find that the people of that country hate us, and then they start using their new democratic powers to establish policies we don’t like or (more frequently) policies that US business doesn’t like. It’s a dangerous game to play, but still ‘we’ (the West) continue to play it over and over.

Another complicating factor is that most people in ‘the West’ don’t even really understand our own form of gov’t. People here throw out the term Democracy, and think that defines our form of government... it really doesn’t. You might call the USA a ‘Democratic Republic’ or a ‘Constitutional Republic’... but we’re not a true ‘Democracy’. I dare say that no one here would really want to live in a total ‘pure’ Democracy. It would be unmanageable especially on the scale of a country the size of the US. I live in a Town were we still have olde fashion ‘Town Meetings’. If you’ve never experienced a New England style Town Meeting let me tell you, you’re not missing much. It’s an antiquated and unwieldy system. It probably worked well in the 1700’s when it was setup... and it likely serviced the local towns throughout the 19th century and most of the 20th, when the town was smaller and most people new each other and worked locally. Today it makes no sense, and there is a movement to reform it in my town, but that itself is going to be a cluster-f**k.... and that’s in a town with a population less than 20K. How hard is it to reform a system that governs 1.4 billion people?

China’s not perfect... the gov’t certainly likes to control information in a way that offends Western sensibilities, but this is primarily a tool the gov’t is using to ‘manage’ change. China has changed for the better in the past 30 years. It’s more free, the economy is better, and the lives of more people are better now than they were 30 years back. That’s progress. Who are ‘we’ to say it’s the wrong kind of progress or not fast enough? If China just dropped all control tomorrow it’s likely there would be a lot of chaos, and once that happens how can you be sure that the change you get is good? The ‘West’ would do well to have a little more respect for China, especially where it’s internal issues don’t impact us. Perhaps then we would be able to focus on where their actions affect other countries, and we’d get more cooperation?
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby mrswdk on Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:00 pm

=D> =D> =D> =D>

Yes, jb. Top post, can't fault it.
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Re: Tiananmen Square protests 1989

Postby jusplay4fun on Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:47 pm

You agree since the post by him defends what you have been unable to defend. You are still wrong in nearly all your posts and the posted ideas by someone else does not make your biased ideas any closer to the truth, except in your mind.

Drop the mic.
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