America revels in its role as cancer of the world

[armati]

jusplay4fun on Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:15 am

America is the cancer? Really?
Yes really.

Here’s Blum’s list of over 50 foreign leaders whom the United States has attempted to assassinate:

1949 – Kim Koo, Korean opposition leader
1950s – CIA/Neo-Nazi hit list of more than 200 political figures in West Germany to be “put out of the way” in the event of a Soviet invasion
1950s – Chou En-lai, Prime minister of China, several attempts on his life
1950s, 1962 – Sukarno, President of Indonesia
1951 – Kim Il Sung, Premier of North Korea
1953 – Mohammed Mossadegh, Prime Minister of Iran
1950s (mid) – Claro M. Recto, Philippines opposition leader
1955 – Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India
1957 – Gamal Abdul Nasser, President of Egypt
1959, 1963, 1969 – Norodom Sihanouk, leader of Cambodia
1960 – Brig. Gen. Abdul Karim Kassem, leader of Iraq
1950s-70s – José Figueres, President of Costa Rica, two attempts on his life
1961 – Francois “Papa Doc” Duvalier, leader of Haiti
1961 – Patrice Lumumba, Prime Minister of the Congo (Zaire)
1961 – Gen. Rafael Trujillo, leader of Dominican Republic
1963 – Ngo Dinh Diem, President of South Vietnam
1960s-70s – Fidel Castro, President of Cuba, many attempts on his life
1960s – Raúl Castro, high official in government of Cuba
1965 – Francisco Caamaño, Dominican Republic opposition leader
1965-6 – Charles de Gaulle, President of France
1967 – Che Guevara, Cuban leader
1970 – Salvador Allende, President of Chile
1970 – Gen. Rene Schneider, Commander-in-Chief of Army, Chile
1970s, 1981 – General Omar Torrijos, leader of Panama
1972 – General Manuel Noriega, Chief of Panama Intelligence
1975 – Mobutu Sese Seko, President of Zaire
1976 – Michael Manley, Prime Minister of Jamaica
1980-1986 – Muammar Qaddafi, leader of Libya, several plots and attempts upon his life
1982 – Ayatollah Khomeini, leader of Iran
1983 – Gen. Ahmed Dlimi, Moroccan Army commander
1983 – Miguel d’Escoto, Foreign Minister of Nicaragua
1984 – The nine comandantes of the Sandinista National Directorate
1985 – Sheikh Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, Lebanese Shiite leader (80 people killed in the attempt)
1991 – Saddam Hussein, leader of Iraq
1993 – Mohamed Farah Aideed, prominent clan leader of Somalia
1998, 2001-2 – Osama bin Laden, leading Islamic militant
1999 – Slobodan Milosevic, President of Yugoslavia
2002 – Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Afghan Islamic leader and warlord
2003 – Saddam Hussein and his two sons
2011 – Muammar Qaddafi, leader of Libya

Here is Blum’s list of U.S. attempts to overthrow governments (* indicates success):

China 1949 to early 1960s
Albania 1949-53
East Germany 1950s
Iran 1953 *
Guatemala 1954 *
Costa Rica mid-1950s
Syria 1956-7
Egypt 1957
Indonesia 1957-8
British Guiana 1953-64 *
Iraq 1963 *
North Vietnam 1945-73
Cambodia 1955-70 *
Laos 1958 *, 1959 *, 1960 *
Ecuador 1960-63 *
Congo 1960 *
France 1965
Brazil 1962-64 *
Dominican Republic 1963 *
Cuba 1959 to present
Bolivia 1964 *
Indonesia 1965 *
Ghana 1966 *
Chile 1964-73 *
Greece 1967 *
Costa Rica 1970-71
Bolivia 1971 *
Australia 1973-75 *
Angola 1975, 1980s
Zaire 1975
Portugal 1974-76 *
Jamaica 1976-80 *
Seychelles 1979-81
Chad 1981-82 *
Grenada 1983 *
South Yemen 1982-84
Suriname 1982-84
Fiji 1987 *
Libya 1980s
Nicaragua 1981-90 *
Panama 1989 *
Bulgaria 1990 *
Albania 1991 *
Iraq 1991
Afghanistan 1980s *
Somalia 1993
Yugoslavia 1999-2000 *
Ecuador 2000 *
Afghanistan 2001 *
Venezuela 2002 *
Iraq 2003 *
Haiti 2004 *
Somalia 2007 to present
Honduras 2009
Libya 2011 *
Syria 2012
Ukraine 2014 *
[arguably, Syria 1949 needs to be added to this list. –DS]
The above list does not include numerous coups by U.S.-trained fighters, such as (other than Honduras) those discussed here: “from Isaac Zida of Burkina Faso, Haiti’s Philippe Biamby, and Yahya Jammeh of The Gambia to Egypt’s Abdel-Fattah el-Sisi, Mohammad Zia-ul-Haq of Pakistan, and the IMET-educated leaders of the 2009 coup in Honduras, not to mention Mali’s Amadou Sanogo.” These are just in very recent years, by no means a complete list, though the Haiti coup referenced here was earlier than the one included in the list above.

We might want to add Venezuela 2018.

Here is Blum’s list of nations bombed by the United States:

Korea and China 1950-53 (Korean War)
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-1961
Guatemala 1960
Congo 1964
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Grenada 1983
Lebanon 1983, 1984 (both Lebanese and Syrian targets)
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1980s
Nicaragua 1980s
Iran 1987
Panama 1989
Iraq 1991 (Persian Gulf War)
Kuwait 1991
Somalia 1993
Bosnia 1994, 1995
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999
Yemen 2002
Iraq 1991-2003 (US/UK on regular basis)
Iraq 2003-2015
Afghanistan 2001-2015
Pakistan 2007-2015
Somalia 2007-8, 2011
Yemen 2009, 2011
Libya 2011, 2015
Syria 2014-2016
[Drone strikes in the Philippines should be added to this list. As perhaps should be all the islands and territories destroyed by test bombings. –DS]

[armati]

jusplay4fun on Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:15 am

America is the cancer? Really?
Yes really.

I was going to print the rest of the list but it seems endless so I'll just post the link.
http://davidswanson.org/warlist/

[mrswdk]

I do however feel confident that neither political system is very stable relative to our own.

The shrill talking heads in Western media have predicted that the Chinese government is on the verge of collapse pretty much every year for the last three decades. So far they've been wrong every year to date. The Chinese government, and political system more generally, do actually have pretty widespread support among the general population (check out page 41 of this Edelman Trust Barometer report), and there are a whole host of reasons why:

• The economy is strong, China's power is increasing and the blatant hostility and aggression America is showing towards China these days just serves to make people rally around the Chinese government even more firmly.
• Russia made a fairly rapid switch from a political system vaguely similar to China's to a different one at the start of the 1990s and look what's happened to Russia's economy ever since.
• Let's say you were to get rid of China's current political system. What would you replace it with? Foreign commentators seem to assume that the current US and European models of government represent the most advanced forms of government and that everyone in the world must surely want to 'progress' towards these. That's not actually true and, in China at least, you're unlikely to find many people who would want to do so. The disruption of the transition period aside, Chinese people look at other political systems abroad (Congress constantly gridlocked by partisan bickering, the UK mired in Brexit, etc.) and wonder, what's desirable about that?
• Even ignoring the points above, the current government is unlikely to cede power to anything short of an armed rebellion, and no one in China wants their country turned into another Syria or Libya.

Met with a round of deafening silence. Yet another mic drop moment from your friendly neighbourhood debate winner, Mrs WDK.

[jusplay4fun]

Good point, Duk. I would like to see this happening and good free market incentives are a good way to promote recycling. Think Al.

One benefit of this brouhaha might be that companies invest in improving the efficiency of electronic recycling.

[jusplay4fun]

mrswdk again shows hubris. Do you think every post you do deserves a response. NO. Period.

Most of your posts are so one-sided and biased that they are simply and succinctly answered HERE, along with a few other cogent posts.

End of debate; you lost, again, mrswdk.

JP4Fun

I do however feel confident that neither political system is very stable relative to our own.

The shrill talking heads in Western media have predicted that the Chinese government is on the verge of collapse pretty much every year for the last three decades. So far they've been wrong every year to date. The Chinese government, and political system more generally, do actually have pretty widespread support among the general population (check out page 41 of this Edelman Trust Barometer report), and there are a whole host of reasons why:

• The economy is strong, China's power is increasing and the blatant hostility and aggression America is showing towards China these days just serves to make people rally around the Chinese government even more firmly.
• Russia made a fairly rapid switch from a political system vaguely similar to China's to a different one at the start of the 1990s and look what's happened to Russia's economy ever since.
• Let's say you were to get rid of China's current political system. What would you replace it with? Foreign commentators seem to assume that the current US and European models of government represent the most advanced forms of government and that everyone in the world must surely want to 'progress' towards these. That's not actually true and, in China at least, you're unlikely to find many people who would want to do so. The disruption of the transition period aside, Chinese people look at other political systems abroad (Congress constantly gridlocked by partisan bickering, the UK mired in Brexit, etc.) and wonder, what's desirable about that?
• Even ignoring the points above, the current government is unlikely to cede power to anything short of an armed rebellion, and no one in China wants their country turned into another Syria or Libya.

Met with a round of deafening silence. Yet another mic drop moment from your friendly neighbourhood debate winner, Mrs WDK.

[Bernie Sanders]

mrswdk again shows hubris. Do you think every post you do deserves a response. NO. Period.

Most of your posts are so one-sided and biased that they are simply and succinctly answered HERE, along with a few other cogent posts.

End of debate; you lost, again, mrswdk.

JP4Fun

I do however feel confident that neither political system is very stable relative to our own.

The shrill talking heads in Western media have predicted that the Chinese government is on the verge of collapse pretty much every year for the last three decades. So far they've been wrong every year to date. The Chinese government, and political system more generally, do actually have pretty widespread support among the general population (check out page 41 of this Edelman Trust Barometer report), and there are a whole host of reasons why:

• The economy is strong, China's power is increasing and the blatant hostility and aggression America is showing towards China these days just serves to make people rally around the Chinese government even more firmly.
• Russia made a fairly rapid switch from a political system vaguely similar to China's to a different one at the start of the 1990s and look what's happened to Russia's economy ever since.
• Let's say you were to get rid of China's current political system. What would you replace it with? Foreign commentators seem to assume that the current US and European models of government represent the most advanced forms of government and that everyone in the world must surely want to 'progress' towards these. That's not actually true and, in China at least, you're unlikely to find many people who would want to do so. The disruption of the transition period aside, Chinese people look at other political systems abroad (Congress constantly gridlocked by partisan bickering, the UK mired in Brexit, etc.) and wonder, what's desirable about that?
• Even ignoring the points above, the current government is unlikely to cede power to anything short of an armed rebellion, and no one in China wants their country turned into another Syria or Libya.

Met with a round of deafening silence. Yet another mic drop moment from your friendly neighbourhood debate winner, Mrs WDK.

My dear illegitimate son,

Relax when you try typing while expressing your views. You obviously struggle to make it appear that you are some intellectual deeep thinker. Then in a nano-second you get into some childish rant and get into calling posters names that only a teenager uses.

Smoke some pot, grab a beer and get laid kiddo.....you need real life experiences. This might not improve your posts intellectually, but you might actually have something interesting to say.

[mrswdk]

Smoke some pot, grab a beer and get laid kiddo.....you need real life experiences. This might not improve your posts intellectually, but you might actually have something interesting to say.

Uncle Bern is back on the horse. cp4fun just got REKD.

[GoranZ]

Will he dare?

Trump Threatens China With New Tariffs Worth $300 Billion

I think he is bluffing

I wouldn't count on it... much as I wish he was bluffing, so far he's been calling down to the river because he thinks he has the best hand. I think the larger question is who actually has the best hand. Jury very much out on that one IMO

The issue is that in case of another round of Tarrifs the Chinese will be left to retaliate with everything they have. So far they haven't retaliated as much as the Americans.

[jimboston]

It’s funny how people here ignore 90% of a post and refuse to counter valid points.

Instead they prefer to “quote” one line and then go on to pull “quotes” off biased internet sources, then claim they’ve won.

The simple truth is I have history and facts on my side and the opposition doesn’t.

I’m only arguing/debating the relative stability of the US form of gov’t in comparison to the gov’t in China and Russia.

I am not pretending that sometimes the US has not done bad things to/in other countries in a misguided attempt to defend our interests. We (the US) have done that... as has EVERY OTHER country with the capabilities to do so, these generally being regional power-players and/or world powers. This is the truth, it’s not great, I’m not ‘proud’ of many of the US actions referenced earlier in this thread, but let’s NOT pretend this is unique to the US. One could argue that we at least (often) believed we were doing it to ‘help’ whereas past world powers made no bones about it and would blatantly take actions without apology.

Now... to the relative stability question...

The US form of government was established in 1787, and is now 232 years old. It has been tested and survived a bloody and protracted civil war. It wasn’t fully healed at the end of that war but after several major foreign wars it’s safe to say we’ve mostly put that behind us. Though we still have regional differences people born in this country (for the most part) consider themselves Americans first and can’t envision a world without this country. We are not perfect, we have racial tensions and some wealth disparity, but in general people are happy. There are decent social support systems, some opportunities to advance oneself, and though healthcare is expensive it’s pretty good. People like to bitch about the political system, but there are not a lot of riots and really no social unrest to note. Our political system / justice system / general ‘personality’ of the country... it’s all based on the British/English models from which we came. These models have changed / evolved over time but also have a long history.

Though the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) was founded in 1920, they seized power in 1949. So it’s been in place for 70 years. It has never been seriously tested by a foreign war. It was initially very repressive and it’s hard to lay down an exact time when this changed. One could argue that the repression/control was necessary initially for it to maintain peace and allow for economic development...it’s probably fair to give them some ramp-up time. The political system today allows for much more freedom than it did in the 60’s and 70’s. China has done a fair job or slowly evolving it’s political and justice system, and it appears (to me) that though many will complain about Human Rights in China they are on the right path and slow but steady progress allows for change while preventing upheaval. Though the current regime /political system is relatively young, the country itself is ancient and the Chinese people (rightly) take pride in their country/culture. These feelings are the source of much antagonism towards the US, because the US ‘attitude’ is one of “we’re right, copy us” and this attitude is perceived by many Chinese as condescending. (That is a failing of many in the US, we don’t often recognize the fact that different cultures demand different forms of gov’t... and there’s not always a ‘right’ answer. Cookie cutter approach doesn’t work.). Anyway, all said, the country itself is going nowhere... the political system is fairly stable, but it’s hard to tell because it has not really been tested.

Russia... that’s another story. The country and culture is old also... it the political system is less than 30 years old. It’s being held together with knockoff duct tape and the will of Putin. A strong wind will knock this baby over.

So, as stated previously, of the three the US clearly has the most robust gov’t... and it’s not a coincidence that we also have the most democratic one too.

[jusplay4fun]

As usual, JimBoston, your recent posts show thought and insight and analysis. Most who post frequently can only post one idea or offer a simple level of rebuttal. Quite frankly, most "rebuttals" do not rise to that level, but merely offer a superficial or cursory level of thought. Many are profane and are laced with obscenities. Does that remind you of anyone that frequently posts here?

The one on China shows a level of respect for the culture of ideas and acknowledges something that I have thought about since the Arab Spring protests: NOT all nations are ready for democracy and that democracy cannot be imposed very well top down. This is expecially true in an old country with numerous generations of NOT expecting to be governed as a democracy or as a republic. Russia and China seems to yearn for rule by a single male autocrat. That avoids the "messiness" of a democracy or a republic.

Your last several posts in different threads show a deeper level of thought and challenges those who post only one idea or have a very myopic view of the world. Keep contributing and offer more than a simple response or a even simpler, banal, and cursory idea as do the many trolls who are frequent posters.

JP4Fun