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INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby chapcrap on Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:02 am

Razorvich wrote:Image
hope there is no mistakes this time... you guys and gals are nutz

I've come to really enjoy the images of the vote display. Also, anyone who uses a z as a substitute for an s is scummy. IGMEOY!

@ZB. After a third reading of your posts, I don't really follow them. I realized on second reading that I think it was against me. Can you restate?

Serious time now. After the vote count that shows a large split and having many people expressing that we'd like to get on board with one person blacky votes on someone who has just softclaimed a town role. I don't understand this move at all from a townie. Seems to me to be a scum tell. Not helpful and just diverting discussion from actually finding out more information on D1.

Tobikera wrote:
pershy wrote:I was suspicious of dakky earlier, but looking at his play after jfm's claim leads be to believe he is town and has a similar role as jfm and that's why he insists that jfm is lying. I don't see him being scum now.


Pershy rushing to the defense of a a fellow scumster?

Doesn't feel that way to me.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby Skoffin on Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:19 am

Everyone needs to be careful how they word any claim related posts, and everyone else needs to put more effort into trying to understand what those claim posts are actually saying. There seems to be a lot of "confusion" over semantics.


UNVOTE JFM

I am going to say that I still do not trust him, however it's clear he's not for pursuit today.

And not to sound like I am waffling on chap and mets... but I am waffling on chaps and mets; I'm not confident that either of them are actually scum at this point.

Blacky and pershy are the top of my list.

Blacky for the way he appeared on the jm wagon before as mentioned, and his bizarre posting style regarding latest developments. His posts come across as a series of statements posed as questions that are in essence a rehash of what someone has already said. It looks like a way to appear like you are coming at someone without putting any actual conviction for it.

Pershy has been covered better by others and I agree with the assessment of him.

VOTE PERSHY
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby Pikanchion on Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:23 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
Following the initial post, every single one of Metsfanmax's other posts until the recent one on page 14 have either been against chapcrap, a quibble over specifics, or only implicitly accusatory.

This is a blatant misrepresentation of my posting record. I had several posts on other topics, including dakky's choice to instantly go after jfm, and I criticized several other people for the jfm wagon as well, including yourself. (Who, I'll note, gave "one of the clearest possible indications that somebody is scum" according to you, and who you have nevertheless just unvoted.) It's true that I didn't accuse people other than chapcrap and Ragian of being scummy, but to imply that chapcrap is the only substantial thing I've talked about is false.

I was pointing out that chapcrap is the only person you've explicitly stated was acting scummy the entire game, save perhaps for your arguing with Ragian, but with that being largely over semantics I feel it's fair to disregard it as quibbling. I also did not say that you didn't "go after" anybody else, but you've frequently relied on implicit rhetorical devices, rather than actually stating that you find something scummy. This is especially pertinent when it turns out that none of those you went after even appear in the post where you state who you would be willing to lynch on the jfm10 bandwagon, which brings me onto the next part:
Metsfanmax wrote:
The explicit accusations of both Skoffin and pershy in the aforementioned page 14 post coming entirely out of the blue, and only because they were prompted by a direct question from BuJaber.

A post cannot be both "out of the blue" and "prompted." These words are intentionally twisted so as to make me look bad, even though they make no sense together.

Yes, it can, and was. Context and content are distinct; contextually your post was prompted by BuJaber, but the contents of the post have no through line from any of your other posts. You previously mention Skoffin only here and you had not mentioned pershy at all prior to this.

Metsfanmax wrote:
Looking at chapcrap's posts there are certainly things I do consider to have been suspect, as I've stated.
I find it interesting that you comment on how I've been narrowly focused, while neglecting to point out that chap has also not really made any substantial cases against anyone other than me (and even that one was flimsy, as you noted). He expressed skepticism of jfm (like everyone else in the game) and called out pershy for his weird vote (like everyone else in the game). That's... about it.
However, I also realise that while Metsfanmax's constant attacks have pushed chapcrap into having to defend almost every point they make, despite this chapcrap has made an effort to discuss other things happening in the thread, and it's giving me a bit of a town feeling towards chapcrap. Earlier in the game, I held a similar feeling with regards to Metsfanmax, but the way they've focused against chapcrap in the meantime has caused me to doubt this, especially after the response we got to BuJaber's question.
So I chose to discuss something other than chapcrap, and the result is you being even more convinced that the only thing I have to talk about is chapcrap?

The difference is that chapcrap made these points freely despite being under constant attack, while to get anything out of you that isn't against chapcrap somebody had to specifically ask for it, and once they did we find out that those you have been implicitly suspicious of are evidently not those you actually suspect the most.



I've run out of time writing what I have already, but I'll make another post about dakky21 and possibly some other stuff later today.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby blacky365 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:15 am

Skoffin wrote:Everyone needs to be careful how they word any claim related posts, and everyone else needs to put more effort into trying to understand what those claim posts are actually saying. There seems to be a lot of "confusion" over semantics.


UNVOTE JFM

I am going to say that I still do not trust him, however it's clear he's not for pursuit today.

And not to sound like I am waffling on chap and mets... but I am waffling on chaps and mets; I'm not confident that either of them are actually scum at this point.

Blacky and pershy are the top of my list.

Blacky for the way he appeared on the jm wagon before as mentioned, and his bizarre posting style regarding latest developments. His posts come across as a series of statements posed as questions that are in essence a rehash of what someone has already said. It looks like a way to appear like you are coming at someone without putting any actual conviction for it.

Pershy has been covered better by others and I agree with the assessment of him.

VOTE PERSHY


My post was just highlighting what Dakky had been saying.
I didnt want to be accused of putting words in ppls mouths, so I just showed it as he has written it.
I thought its so obviously scummy, I didnt need to explain more!

Re the JFM wagon thing... I posted my reasons, and then posted a few times since. Sorry if you dont like the way I speak, but I genuinely dont know how I should do anything differently.
I do find it abit weird how you keep mentioning me for no reason tho!

I dont want to play the newbie card, but this is only my 4th mafia game so i may still have abit to learn in terms of my posting style!
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:16 am

Pika wrote:Yes, it can, and was. Context and content are distinct; contextually your post was prompted by BuJaber, but the contents of the post have no through line from any of your other posts. You previously mention Skoffin only here and you had not mentioned pershy at all


That is because I never found either of them scummy enough to comment on. BuJ asked me, if I had to vote for someone on that list, who would I pick. So I answered. This is completely consistent with me not actually wanting to vote for either of them at this time.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby Metsfanmax on Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:18 am

I mean I had never commented on anyone on that wagon as far as I recall. Is there any way I could have answered his question that did not prompt your suspicion?!
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby jfm10 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:53 am

chapcrap wrote:
Razorvich wrote:Image
hope there is no mistakes this time... you guys and gals are nutz

I've come to really enjoy the images of the vote display. Also, anyone who uses a z as a substitute for an s is scummy. IGMEOY!

@ZB. After a third reading of your posts, I don't really follow them. I realized on second reading that I think it was against me. Can you restate?

Serious time now. After the vote count that shows a large split and having many people expressing that we'd like to get on board with one person blacky votes on someone who has just softclaimed a town role. I don't understand this move at all from a townie. Seems to me to be a scum tell. Not helpful and just diverting discussion from actually finding out more information on D1.

Tobikera wrote:
pershy wrote:I was suspicious of dakky earlier, but looking at his play after jfm's claim leads be to believe he is town and has a similar role as jfm and that's why he insists that jfm is lying. I don't see him being scum now.


Pershy rushing to the defense of a a fellow scumster?

Doesn't feel that way to me.


I'm not even going to bother going back to look but i would say votes 3 to 7 or 8 on me were because of my soft claim.I cant see how 5 or 6 players wont be jumping on this band wagon but hey even at L-8 i wont be believing his story anyways.just my opinion.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby strike wolf on Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:10 am

So you don't find Dakky scummy Skoffi n? I mean calming down I don't think I'm willing to try to press a Dakky lynch (the only reason would be if we decided two claims was enough today and Dakky was suspicious enough to press more). If it was any Other non-newbie, I don't think I'd be hesitating but Dakky has a history of odd play habits that get him in trouble and this doesn't feel that far from the norm. It was still kinda scummy how he went after JFM without any legitimate counter claim and rather did some serious mental gymnastics. Right now my read on him is neutral to slightly scummy.

Feeding off of that, I know this because I'm familiar with Dakky and even then I had to take a step back to analyze it more calmly before coming to this. Blacky is a new player. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that he would see Dakky as very scummy. It's also not uncommon for newer players to be heavily influenced by other players comments so your argument that he seems to be repeating others doesn't hold much weight in my mind.

Honestly, why this condemnation of Blacky and not Sirius who's changed his more times than I can remember?

Your comments on JFM also sound just non-commital enough where he flips town, you can say 'well good thing I came to my senses' but still be able to say 'I told you So if he flips scum.

General statement: I Don't remember Pershy style that well. Is there anyone who knows him other than Tobi who can weigh into if what Tobi says is true?

@Chap: I'll reread your response in a bit and get back to you on my thoughts. Right now I am starting to lean towards Pershy as the better lynch target anyways since were running low on time and I'm still not really convinced on the argument against Mets.

@Za: You were one of Maybe 2 players who didn't just vote him because 'soft claiming early is scummy!' Pretty much every other vote until he got to L-2 was "he soft claimed early! Omg we need to vote him!"
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby ZaBeast on Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:33 am

@BuJ you're right, it looks like pershy is a more likely lynch candidate than chap
Unvote vote pershy
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby TX AG 90 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:23 am

It looks like the jfm wagon has broken an axle.

I'll go back to my original suspicion chapcrap. I have not been swayed yet that it is pershy or mets.

Unvote jfm
Vote chapcrap
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby dakky21 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:04 pm

Well, since I already said on multiple occasions that either Jfm or/and Pershy are scum and since we are really low on time and the only wagon which could pass is on Pershy, I will again

unvote
vote Pershy
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby jfm10 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:23 pm

I dont know much mafia slang.I am going to read up on it eventually
jfm10 wrote:this is a Tokie game and we are fish.There won't be any guns and i doubt thier will be any players chatting together during the night.I have a protective role and that's all i got to say.

The way i read the context if knowing guns was slang then apparently i would think we are in Eden.
That said scum to me are anyone that has an effect against town.
I believe that dakky is scum(probably a bad term)because it is my feeling that he has to vote a townie and be apart of the lynch for his bonus credits.
I also think his ability is to look at a player at night to see if they are town or not.That will enable him to set up the band wagon for his bonus.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby Ragian on Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:06 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Ragian wrote:My vote on you is NOT because you have an issue with me pondering alternatives, which, according to you, is what scum does, but because you keep representing A D1 no lynch as my stance. I don't care (ish) whether you think I'm scummy, I care about how you change my words. To me, that's what scum do. Hence my vote.


You're the one who is misrepresenting my stance here. I've never once said that you definitively advocate a D1 no lynch. I've said that the original post represents indecision on the issue, and I gave you the opportunity to clarify why you expressed indecision, which should make it clear that I didn't accuse you of holding that alleged stance. Why would I ask the question below if I thought your original post clearly was advocating for a no lynch?

Mets wrote:So my question is simple: are you in favor of a D1 lynch today or not? If you are, why are you pointing out that you might have made another decision?


So to summarize, my original comment was that you shouldn't have any indecision on this matter, not that you were definitively taking a stand for a D1 lynch. I think the indecision was something of a scum tell, so I brought it up. Perhaps the only reason it got to this point is because your initial comment accused me of "pounding" on you merely for commenting that I disagreed with your reasoning.

Fair enough. Ugh...

unvote

pershy wrote:..and Bujaber just came onto my radar.


Why?

Long discussion about lynching jmf. No way, he seems town to me. Whatever he does with his abilities, he'll decide each night. Not by stating it in the thread. As mentioned, we need his vote even if we don't have his ability (but we don't know if we have it, neither do scum).

Why is dakky softclaiming? And then claim a bit more...oh boy...I don't see the information benefit town, only scum. Now they may have two targets. If both are town.

@ZaBeast, it seems likely that jmf was saying guns as flavour rather than as meaning roles that typically have guns. That's how I read it. (Lord, I agree with BuJ.)

re: Pershy. He has a habit of accusing everyone who goes after him when he's town with little to no other justification. The way he mentioned BuJ seems Pershy-like to me. I often want to vote him because a lot of his deductions rely on him assuming that everyone thinks that he's town ... I just don't know why he would get jmf to L-1 no matter how busy he was. I'd defo check a VC before voting. Tobi is right, however, in the very accomodating tone that Pershy has had during the game. As mentioned above, he go full frontal on whoever gets at his throat. Here, he's saying how he can understand that people find him scummy. It feels off if we go by metagaming.

Vote Pershy

Moreover, he hasn't really provided any input on anyone.

FP'ed
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby pershy on Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:34 pm

I have provided plenty of input on many people - I have said those who I find town like - jfm, dakky (not before but now yes) and others, including chap and mets who I haven't voted today because I didn't find them particularly scummy.

Tobi says I'm defending dakky, that's bull (and dakky is voting me btw Tobi) - I found him scummy the way he was pushing for a lynch, then when he continued pushing and justified why I thought it must be because he's town and thought jfm's claim stunk. I already said this. Tobi is coming out with a lot of not very logical stuff so I'm gonna officially FOS him.

I am keeping an open mind because it's still early days, I don't understand how many of you seasoned players can be saying "he's definitely scum, and he's scum" - if you are town YOU DON'T KNOW! We have no clue yet. Just a few arguments to go on. A lot of the time it's town on town violence and scum can surreptitiously FOS and vote and go with the flow. Notice I have not done that - I voted jfm but I was also one of the first to unvote after his claim. Maybe that's why dakky thinks I'm scummy as he suspects jfm still. dakky your arguments don't hold weight. Whatever you are I'm sure jfm's role can exist in the same game but I may be wrong. If you are so convinced he's scum then convince people and I will happily revote him.

I now want to vote Tobi because of the contradiction that I am in cahoots with dakky but yet dakky is convinced I'm scum and he hasn't realised that.

Anyway, back to my point - you can't be so sure, we have very little to go on. Be careful of town upon town violence. That is why I have been cautious to make my second vote, because I'm weighing things up and waiting to have a good lead but I don't yet - to me the scummiest is Tobi at the moment and bujabber seems opportunistic so possibly him.

Anyway I must be close to minus 2 so be careful voting me in case you lynch me before you force me to out my role.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby chapcrap on Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:41 pm

I still have scummy vibes against Mets. This vote change doesn't signify that I don't, but I would say that the pershy feeling is equal and that's where the day is going toward the deadline, so I'm going there.

unvote vote Pershy

Fastposted

I counted the votes and this puts you at L-2. What you say is true. No one really knows, but this is how we get information. I guess we'll have to decide with your potential claim. And as has already been stated before. town on town violence is inevitable and will cause more leads to emerge.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby pershy on Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:43 pm

Tobi has kinda been a bit of a stuck record about me actually -

https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/search.php?keywords=into+the+deep&terms=all&author=tobikera&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Tobi, I already tried to warn you that you are barking up the wrong tree. If you are town then you are being very very single minded which does not help town.
However I don't think you are.

Tobikera wrote:
pershy wrote:I was suspicious of dakky earlier, but looking at his play after jfm's claim leads be to believe he is town and has a similar role as jfm and that's why he insists that jfm is lying. I don't see him being scum now.


Pershy rushing to the defense of a a fellow scumster?

I was rushing to dakky's defence? Really? I gave my reasons why I thought he was town earlier after his insistence on jfm lynch. And I fossed him early on and he's been calling for my blood.

Screw it - maybe we can get traction on someone who actually IS scummy. Come on guys.

vote Tobi

I said before I would vote for a second claim - but i don't particularly suspect chap or mets - both of which have made sense to me so far so I'm gonna go with this vote on Tobi (knowing full well that it will probably be me who has to claim but whatever)...(and I say yet again that that is a bad idea....ask me again on D2 - that would be ok).

fastposted by chap :roll:
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby pershy on Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:45 pm

chapcrap wrote:I still have scummy vibes against Mets. This vote change doesn't signify that I don't, but I would say that the pershy feeling is equal and that's where the day is going toward the deadline, so I'm going there.

unvote vote Pershy

Fastposted

I counted the votes and this puts you at L-2. What you say is true. No one really knows, but this is how we get information. I guess we'll have to decide with your potential claim. And as has already been stated before. town on town violence is inevitable and will cause more leads to emerge.


no - I recounted and it puts me at L-3

There is still time to reverse this madness.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby pershy on Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:46 pm

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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby chapcrap on Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:53 pm

pershy wrote:no - I recounted and it puts me at L-3

There is still time to reverse this madness.

Going back to last mod vote count.

Current votes:
  1. Tobi
  2. BuJ
  3. Skoffin
  4. ZB
  5. dakky
  6. Ragian
  7. chap

That's L-2. I think your points against Tobi are good. If you are town and lynched, I think he becomes my biggest FOS.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby blacky365 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:56 pm

This is utter madness!
I go into a meeting for a few hours and come out to see Pershy is at L-2!!
I really don’t think pershy has said anything that warrants this and for those that say they want a claim is just hypocritical after I and others were called out for doing the same to jfm!

Also, for those wanting a claim, I was under the impression that we don’t push for more than one claim per day. Otherwise why don’t we just go round everyone and demand a claim...
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby Tobikera on Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:05 pm

Ragian said:

re: Pershy. He has a habit of accusing everyone who goes after him when he's town with little to no other justification. The way he mentioned BuJ seems Pershy-like to me. I often want to vote him because a lot of his deductions rely on him assuming that everyone thinks that he's town ... I just don't know why he would get jmf to L-1 no matter how busy he was. I'd defo check a VC before voting. Tobi is right, however, in the very accomodating tone that Pershy has had during the game. As mentioned above, he go full frontal on whoever gets at his throat. Here, he's saying how he can understand that people find him scummy. It feels off if we go by metagaming.

Vote Pershy

Moreover, he hasn't really provided any input on anyone.


Ragian and I probably know more than anyone here how pershy plays. As I said before, what he has done in this game is atypical, which equates to scummy for me. Yes, I could be wrong, and I could suffer if he flips town, but he's who I'm putting my money on at present. As you can see above, Ragian agrees with at least a part of my assessment of Pershy, so this is not something I am contriving out of thin air.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby blacky365 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:12 pm

And to be fair, you have had ure vote on him for quite a while!
It’s skoffin who called me out a number of times for wanting a jfm claim who is doing the same thing now...
Also this wagon suddenly gained traction and seems really odd to me
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby Pikanchion on Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:38 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:I mean I had never commented on anyone on that wagon as far as I recall. Is there any way I could have answered his question that did not prompt your suspicion?!
Metsfanmax wrote:This is a blatant misrepresentation of my posting record. I had several posts on other topics, including dakky's choice to instantly go after jfm, and I criticized several other people for the jfm wagon as well, including yourself.

Well, okay then.

Going back to grab that quote did remind me of another thing I took issue with though:
Metsfanmax wrote:(Who, I'll note, gave "one of the clearest possible indications that somebody is scum" according to you, and who you have nevertheless just unvoted.)

Nice of you to deliberately omit any and all context from this quote, which was specifically in reference to jfm10 having not fully claimed. What event could possibly have occurred between these two posts I wonder?



Now, dakky21. *sigh* Just... why?
In a single page of the thread, you: go from not wanting to risk a new wagon forming in case it reveals something vital to scum, to having claimed the majority of your role.

Semi-Bulletproof Investigator is a world apart from Super Doctor, so they are certainly not counter-claimable. My understanding is that you thought there were too many bulletproof roles on the town team to be believable, but this too is a poor argument. True, potential game breaking scenarios do exist where too many town roles are effectively day-kill only, but it is possible to build counters to this into a scum team; scum super kills, day kills, or roleblocks can all do this to name just a few. Without knowing the composition of the scum team, or perhaps a reasonably large selection of the roles present generally, you cannot know that you are the only role capable of being bulletproof.

Anybody else I would vote for without a second thought here but you have a track record, and it's giving me a WIFOM headache. Regardless, seeing as pershy is at or around claim-or-lynch territory, I expect the cases against either Metsfanmax or dakky21 will have to wait until tomorrow.
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby Sirius Kase on Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:04 pm

It seems like deja vu all over again. Last time I was in a position to put someone to L-1, I backed out and move my vote first to Pershy and then to darin. I didn't think it was fair to leave my vote on someone who just didn't seem scummy enough. I don't think it's wise to get any closer to a lynch when all we wanted was an extension. Pershy woke up so I was uncomfortable voting for him, but darin died at the hands of the moderator.

I don't think anyone else is going to volunteer more information. But, I also don't want to lynch someone who shouldn't be lynch.

I have several names on my potential scum list, namely anyone who participated in the doctor debate. Some of those people knew too much. It seemed too well orchestrated. It's possible that this was a common strategy that everyone but me is familiar with. But, most people stayed quiet while jfm got punched by just a few, then he was let off with only a partial claim. As though, he was in on it. I didn't want to cast so near a deciding vote, so I didn't. Now, that it's over, I still think some of them scum, but they won an extension, and the focus has shifted to Pershy. We need a consensus, now, the doctor group can wait. Unless Pershy is the entire mafia, we'll have time to identify who is next, tomorrow.

With Pershy it's different. He was seemingly absent for awhile, then started posting only when he had to explain. Then, he was too defensive. Worse, no one else wanted to give him any benefit of the doubt. He's been on my watch list for awhile. I pay attention to what he says and what others say about him. The only reason I don't confront him directly is that I don't have that skill. Others do, and are willing to use it.

VOTE Pershy
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Re: INTO THE DEEP

Postby blacky365 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:14 pm

Oh damn... newbie put pershy at L-1!!!
Can’t believe wot I’m seeing here...
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