aage wrote:Why must Mets claim cop in this scenario? Welcome to my scumdar, dakky.
I'm saying that pursuing the other wagon will get another claim from another player, be it a cop or vig or whatever, but that claim would be more interesting to scum than the one which won't help them at all. If Jfm is telling the truth then he will protect himself and scum probably won't attack him but may attack another player who claims a more important role today and there is no one to cover them since Doc will protect himself. If you get what I mean.
Getting Mets or Chap or anyone else to L-2 today is asking for their claim which in return can be fatal for town if one of those people have an important power role.
Tobikera wrote:I have voted for pershy for reasons stated below. However, the mod had not credited me with that vote.
Are you referring to the vote that was a color other than #FF0000? You might want to redo it.
Several of you have stated mild to severe doubts about pershy, but no one votes for him. I'm encouraging you to do so.
I find your observance of personality change in pershy to be of great interest. I didn't know him at all until this game, so I'll need to take your word for it. I very much accept that being scum could cause him to behave differently than in the past. But, I don't know him and would very much like more people to comment before I give him my vote.
aage wrote:Why must Mets claim cop in this scenario? Welcome to my scumdar, dakky.
I'm saying that pursuing the other wagon will get another claim from another player, be it a cop or vig or whatever, but that claim would be more interesting to scum than the one which won't help them at all. If Jfm is telling the truth then he will protect himself and scum probably won't attack him but may attack another player who claims a more important role today and there is no one to cover them since Doc will protect himself. If you get what I mean.
Getting Mets or Chap or anyone else to L-2 today is asking for their claim which in return can be fatal for town if one of those people have an important power role.
I'm gonna go ahead and use one of your own arguments against you.
dakky21 wrote:Well Mets, yeah, that's another point of view IF you believe Jfm is the real Doc. Sorry, but I don't.
I'm more inclined to believe jfd is the doc than believe that Mets is town. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be voting him.
That being as it may, your argument simply doesn't work. You say Mets shouldn't have to claim because the doc is absent, but that simply leads to a situation where nobody can be pushed to claim because scum might kill them. Mets is not unique in this. Your solution is to kill off the claimed doc before we can scumhunt for anyone else... but there is no reason to kill off the claimed doc, other than the fact that he claimed doc.
I never said Mets is town. Or Chap. Or anyone. I put him (I could have used you) in a hypothetical situation in which he is town cop and is brought to L-2.
On the other hand, I don't trust Jfm as I have my own reasons and can't write them without claiming or at least partially claiming which I don't want yet.
dakky21 wrote:I never said Mets is town. Or Chap. Or anyone. I put him (I could have used you) in a hypothetical situation in which he is town cop and is brought to L-2.
On the other hand, I don't trust Jfm as I have my own reasons and can't write them without claiming or at least partially claiming which I don't want yet.
Well shit son, you just pulled the same thing jfm was hoisted up on his ankles for. What the hell are we supposed to do with this so close to the deadline?
aage wrote:Why must Mets claim cop in this scenario? Welcome to my scumdar, dakky.
I'm saying that pursuing the other wagon will get another claim from another player, be it a cop or vig or whatever, but that claim would be more interesting to scum than the one which won't help them at all. If Jfm is telling the truth then he will protect himself and scum probably won't attack him but may attack another player who claims a more important role today and there is no one to cover them since Doc will protect himself. If you get what I mean.
Getting Mets or Chap or anyone else to L-2 today is asking for their claim which in return can be fatal for town if one of those people have an important power role.
Aage already pointed out how this argument is weak. Why are you repeating it?
Maxleod wrote:Not strike, he's the only one with a functioning brain.
dakky21 wrote:On the other hand, I don't trust Jfm as I have my own reasons and can't write them without claiming or at least partially claiming which I don't want yet.
Are you confident enough in those reasons that if we followed your lead and lynched jfm, and he flipped town, that you would accept us lynching you in return?
I'll just throw it out... mets was right, I'll get lynched D1 again...
You know the feeling when something doesn't seems right? I feel that about Jfm. I could believe he is the Doc, but he said he can protect himself during the night and the only way to kill him is to be lynched. That's basically my role and I'm not the Doc. There you go... I just can't hold that in myself. So maybe Jfm's role shares the part of not being killable at night but it doesn't necessarily means he is a Doc and why would any sane Doc counter claim on D1? Only to get NK'ed and that is why I think Jfm is fishing for.
dakky21 wrote:On the other hand, I don't trust Jfm as I have my own reasons and can't write them without claiming or at least partially claiming which I don't want yet.
Are you confident enough in those reasons that if we followed your lead and lynched jfm, and he flipped town, that you would accept us lynching you in return?
Good question... you have confidently said that you don’t trust jfm, if we lynch him today and he flips town then you are screwed mate! I would go along this route for now... if you stand by what you say!
dakky21 wrote:I never said Mets is town. Or Chap. Or anyone. I put him (I could have used you) in a hypothetical situation in which he is town cop and is brought to L-2.
On the other hand, I don't trust Jfm as I have my own reasons and can't write them without claiming or at least partially claiming which I don't want yet.
No one can really do much with this information without knowing more. We'd have to trust you and you haven't given me much to trust. Here's one hopefully fairly innocuous question, does your info prove JFM is lying? Or do you just interpret it to mean he is likely lying?
Maxleod wrote:Not strike, he's the only one with a functioning brain.
dakky21 wrote:I'll just throw it out... mets was right, I'll get lynched D1 again...
You know the feeling when something doesn't seems right? I feel that about Jfm. I could believe he is the Doc, but he said he can protect himself during the night and the only way to kill him is to be lynched. That's basically my role and I'm not the Doc. There you go... I just can't hold that in myself. So maybe Jfm's role shares the part of not being killable at night but it doesn't necessarily means he is a Doc and why would any sane Doc counter claim on D1? Only to get NK'ed and that is why I think Jfm is fishing for.
jfm said he can protect someone, and then said that includes being able to protect himself. That's very different from the claim you are evidently making (bulletproof). So I don't think you're counter-claiming him.
why would any sane Doc counter claim on D1
That's how mafia works! Any town member, including the doc, would gladly trade themselves if it meant grabbing mafia. The town to mafia ratio always makes this a good deal.
Well if I was just bulletproof then he could still be the doc... but then, there is more to my role and that part I will not claim and that is why I believe Jfm is lying about protecting himself.
One thing I didn't think about when I was analyzing is that jfm does n't have to protect himself every night. If scum thinks he's always protecting himself, they might leave him alone. Then he could be protecting someone else. There is luck involved, so don't know how realistic that is.
Now, dakky says he can similarly protect himself, but can he protect someone else? I'm still studying up on the roles, and I know some are similar. In a game with a lot of people, I would expect some duplication. If you lose a Doc or a Cop early, wouldn't it make for a lousy game if there wasn't someone else to do the healing or the investigating?
Just saw your last, about being bulletproof, is it like a bulletproof vest that's transferable?
Look, I'm not going to make this more complicated than it is. I'm not the doc so it's possible Jfm is saying the truth that he is really a doc. I do have an investigative role but if I use it then I am not bulletproof- scum can kill me at night.
That being said I believe Jfm has a similar role and can probably choose to protect himself or risk and protect someone else.
dakky21 wrote:Look, I'm not going to make this more complicated than it is. I'm not the doc so it's possible Jfm is saying the truth that he is really a doc. I do have an investigative role but if I use it then I am not bulletproof- scum can kill me at night.
That being said I believe Jfm has a similar role and can probably choose to protect himself or risk and protect someone else.
I had my eyes on you,i am pointing my fins at you AND oh my god you suck
you are experienced enough to know Tobi had me at L-2 which was granting the extension yet complained with 3 hours left about heading into night. unvote vote dakky21
Tobikera wrote:I have voted for pershy for reasons stated below. However, the mod had not credited me with that vote.
Are you referring to the vote that was a color other than #FF0000? You might want to redo it. I voted for pershy in red bold near the bottom of page 12.
Several of you have stated mild to severe doubts about pershy, but no one votes for him. I'm encouraging you to do so.
I find your observance of personality change in pershy to be of great interest. I didn't know him at all until this game, so I'll need to take your word for it. I very much accept that being scum could cause him to behave differently than in the past. But, I don't know him and would very much like more people to comment before I give him my vote.
dakky21 wrote:Look, I'm not going to make this more complicated than it is. I'm not the doc so it's possible Jfm is saying the truth that he is really a doc. I do have an investigative role but if I use it then I am not bulletproof- scum can kill me at night.
That being said I believe Jfm has a similar role and can probably choose to protect himself or risk and protect someone else.
I don't think jfm ever claimed to be a doc. He just said he could protect "prevent all attacks against your target".
I'd like a little precision from jfm about his claim, because there seems to be a contradiction between your soft claim and your full claim. In the first one you explicitly state you don't believe we have any vigs, in the second you say the wording of your role lends you to believe town has vigs. What made you change your mind?
jfm10 wrote:this is a Tokie game and we are fish. There won't be any guns and i doubt thier will be any players chatting together during the night.I have a protective role and that's all i got to say.
jfm10 wrote:My ability is "prevent all attacks against your target"
I have been trying to tell yous i am town and i just get the you must be scum for giving out info on yourself.My ability is weak at the beginning of the game as i have a less than 7% chance of picking the scums target unless i make myself the target and then they waste thier night.
I have no choice now but to target myself every night but atleast town now knows that i can only be lynched.Also note attacks is plural so you can count on vigilantes in this game.
About the chaps & mets issue: I like the case on chaps, not so much the one on mets. He seemed pretty on the fence about jfm after his soft claim, which to me is playing it on both sides, so he could point out he didn't wanted jfm dead while still throwing shade at him (see below), role-fished (but I think others on the jfm wagon have engaged in worse role fishing, see below), and His vote on mets looked more like an OMGUS than an actual argument.
chapcrap wrote:jfm's claim came out of nowhere, IMO. It seems REALLY fishy to me. That being said, I'm not sure if I believe him, but I think if someone is claiming that straight off, we should give them the benefit of the doubt, not lynch him. No one is counterclaiming, so I would believe him at this point.
Random points: I take issue with Tobi, pershy, blacky and SK's opportunistic bandwagonning and role-fishing.
pershy wrote:But that's just based on a gut feeling. I suppose the likely candidates based on current votes to get any traction are chapcrap or mets or possibly myself according to what a few people have said. I personally don't find chapcrap scummy. But there probably isn't time unless the mod grants another couple of days I guess. I feel we have had a fairly productive D1 at least and we have got one claim which cleared jfm in my eyes at least for now. Seems a fitting ability for this game - especially the detail of the ability starting weak and getting stronger. Seemed legit to me.
pershy seemingly not understanding that every role that can target people becomes more useful as the game progresses. As time goes by you have a smaller pool of people to investigate/kill/jail/... and a better idea who to target. I mean, there's a reason why vigilantes should wait and not kill on the 1st phase they're able to. For someone who said he played mafia 8 years that's pretty weird to see that part as a confirmation the role is legit. It is the least useful part of jfm's claim, as BuJ already stated.
pershy wrote:..and Bujaber just came onto my radar.
A fine OMGUS if you ask me, even if there wasn't a vote associated with it. I also liked BuJ case about pershy.
Tobikera wrote:Read some more, Strike Wolf. My goal was to get jfm10 to do what you are supposed to do at L-2. I didn't even get a flavor claim out of him the first time. It was obvious that there were enough newbies here that I thought it important to stress that you are supposed to provide good info at L-2 or suffer a potential lynch. Not responding to such pressure is considered scummy. No threat, no results, no game....just wild ass guesses, done at random on a whim.
Tobikera wrote:Pershy is usually much smoother and accommodating than what I have seen since he reappeared and started posting again. Also, without much basis, he immediately take jfm10 to L-1. This is atypical pershy play from my experience with him in about 10-12 games. Most of these recent posts appear to be smoke and are defensive for him. Yes, I think we should have another claim, and I think it should be pershy. IF I was voting for a lynch, it would be him rather than jfm10.
UNVOTE VOTE Pershy
You pointed out yourself that you expected people to claim when brought at L-2 or you'd lynch them, then you switch your vote for pershy. Mind you, that was before jfm fully claimed. At that point, would you still have voted jfm and just happened to find pershy a better suited candidate or had you dropped the jfm case completely?
All in all, if I had to rank the players I find the scummiest (on decreasing order of scumminess), I'd go with pershy, tobi, blacky=chap, jfm (as an aside can people stop saying the only argument against jfm was that he soft-claimed? As I pointed out already, my main reason for voting him is how and why he bandwagonned on Ragian early on (link1link2). I liked how jfm tried to get an extension going and claimed (I assumed so we could try to pressure someone else).
strike wolf wrote:@razor: Can docs and other protective roles target themselves?
Keep in mind a positive answer wouldn't necessarily mean jfm was lying but could mean he wasn't aware about that (if it wasn't specified on his role PM). Combining that with the fact that not knowing whether jfm (if he is truthful) could protect himself would mostly be an handicap to scum as it would be harder for them to guess who is protected, I don't think I want to know the answer.
Unvote Vote chap. I'd be more enclined to vote pershy and would switch to him if others do too, but as far as I can tell he has 1 vote on him (tobi) and BuJ said he would vote him. That doesn't make him a likely lynch candidate.
fp'ed well, by a lot of people @jfm: how is that alignment indicative? And tobi's unvote should have counted. A different shade of red is still the red color, guess raz just missed it. @TX: that is what a doc does, protecting people from night kills. That claim seems even more powerful than a regular doc because it seems he can protect from other people than just scum.
Either jfm10 or dakky21 could be a bus driver. They can protect someone by switching them with someone else at night. They can also protect themselves by switching themselves with someone else, preferably an assumed scum. I did this very thing in a recent game with the DBD folks.
I'd like a little precision from jfm about his claim, because there seems to be a contradiction between your soft claim and your full claim. In the first one you explicitly state you don't believe we have any vigs, in the second you say the wording of your role lends you to believe town has vigs. What made you change your mind?
jfm10 wrote: this is a Tokie game and we are fish. There won't be any guns and i doubt thier will be any players chatting together during the night.I have a protective role and that's all i got to say.
Ididn't say thier won't be any vigs , I said thier won't be any guns because fish don't have fingers.
