INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[Metsfanmax]

Its not that I dont believe JFM, its just he hasnt given us anything... your fish is just flavour and not indication of a role.

So now you have to choose between lynching on policy ("he was supposed to tell us his role at this point and he didn't! shun the non-believer!") or lynching who you actually think is scum. Choose carefully.

[jfm10]

Its not that I dont believe JFM, its just he hasnt given us anything... your fish is just flavour and not indication of a role.

nor will i offer it to you blacky
unvote
vote blacky365

[blacky365]

Its not that I dont believe JFM, its just he hasnt given us anything... your fish is just flavour and not indication of a role.

So now you have to choose between lynching on policy ("he was supposed to tell us his role at this point and he didn't! shun the non-believer!") or lynching who you actually think is scum. Choose carefully.

Agreed, its a straight choice and i didn't really think he is scum... until he just voted me for stating the obvious... that is actually rather scummy!
So now, my reasons for NOT unvoting are that I think he actually could be scum in the end!
Could we get lucky on D1 with a scum lynch?

[TX AG 90]

Its not that I dont believe JFM, its just he hasnt given us anything... your fish is just flavour and not indication of a role.

He claimed he was a protector. Do we need more than that?

[blacky365]

Saying he is a protector is abit vague though...
Also, im only one of 7 votes... so lets see what others think about this claim.

[TX AG 90]

I'm just worried 2 scums are going to vote him up at last minute and get him lynch. At least they'll have FoS pointed at them.

[Tobikera]

I am probably the smallest fresh water fish in this game.The last Tokie game didn't have players that could talk with each other at night which makes me believe it was a possible test for this scenario.Players will probably have a personal objective (mine last game was to be on the lynch count of a certain player to be lynched,,which was ragian).

I'm not sure if this is a slip, or ignorance, but an Angle Fish is a marine (saltwater) fish usually associated with reefs. Yet, above jfm refers to himself as "the smallest fresh water fish in this game." More to ponder.

[jfm10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterophyllum

[Pikanchion]

I am probably the smallest fresh water fish in this game.The last Tokie game didn't have players that could talk with each other at night which makes me believe it was a possible test for this scenario.Players will probably have a personal objective (mine last game was to be on the lynch count of a certain player to be lynched,,which was ragian).

I'm not sure if this is a slip, or ignorance, but an Angle Fish is a marine (saltwater) fish usually associated with reefs. Yet, above jfm refers to himself as "the smallest fresh water fish in this game." More to ponder.

"Pterophyllum is a small genus of freshwater fish from the family Cichlidae known to most aquarists as angelfish.

Pterophyllum should not be confused with marine angelfish, perciform fish found on shallow ocean reefs."

—

Its not that I dont believe JFM, its just he hasnt given us anything... your fish is just flavour and not indication of a role.

He claimed he was a protector. Do we need more than that?

You say that as if most of these votes were not made after that was stated. If protective role was good enough we wouldn't have placed the votes...

[jfm10]

Nice try Tobi.

[TX AG 90]

I am probably the smallest fresh water fish in this game.The last Tokie game didn't have players that could talk with each other at night which makes me believe it was a possible test for this scenario.Players will probably have a personal objective (mine last game was to be on the lynch count of a certain player to be lynched,,which was ragian).

I'm not sure if this is a slip, or ignorance, but an Angle Fish is a marine (saltwater) fish usually associated with reefs. Yet, above jfm refers to himself as "the smallest fresh water fish in this game." More to ponder.

"Pterophyllum is a small genus of freshwater fish from the family Cichlidae known to most aquarists as angelfish.

Pterophyllum should not be confused with marine angelfish, perciform fish found on shallow ocean reefs."

—

Its not that I dont believe JFM, its just he hasnt given us anything... your fish is just flavour and not indication of a role.

He claimed he was a protector. Do we need more than that?

You say that as if most of these votes were not made after that was stated. If protective role was good enough we wouldn't have placed the votes...

Understood, since this is my first game, I have no idea how many layers there are to a role. I don't even know if they are consistent from game to game or if Razor can make new ones up. I may be getting duped here, but I genuinely believe jfm and am not in support of him being lynched.

Question, when we lynch someone, do we find out if we were right or not? Do we find out anything?

[dakky21]

I am keeping my vote on jfm, now for one more reason, or actually two more - jfm changed his vote 5 times (Blurp, me, Rage, Tobi and now blacky).. I've learnt so far that frequently changing votes can be scummy... and the second one is the "if you don't lynch me, scum will kill me"... that one sounded to me like a desperate move.

On the other hand, I have accused Pershy early in the game and we've all gone over it as he stopped posting (despite his mention of the sharks and calling for the massclaim). His last post is 4 days ago and his posts overall don't say anything. Could be scummarining.

@TX AG.... when lynch happens everything about the lynched one is revealed.

[jfm10]

yes you find out if you are right or wrong.

[jfm10]

I am keeping my vote on jfm, now for one more reason, or actually two more - jfm changed his vote 5 times (Blurp, me, Rage, Tobi and now blacky).. I've learnt so far that frequently changing votes can be scummy... and the second one is the "if you don't lynch me, scum will kill me"... that one sounded to me like a desperate move.

On the other hand, I have accused Pershy early in the game and we've all gone over it as he stopped posting (despite his mention of the sharks and calling for the massclaim). His last post is 4 days ago and his posts overall don't say anything. Could be scummarining.

@TX AG.... when lynch happens everything about the lynched one is revealed.

In the end.me picking out 3 scum already is pretty good

[ZaBeast]

Who are you comfortable lynching now, then?

I'm voting jfm atm. Might consider chapcrap but I'd have to look back to make up my mind. And I'd much rather keep it on jfm.

I disagree with pressuring people to reveal their role just for the sake of it though.

Why? Are you afraid you will be caught out in a lie if you get pressured?
Seems quite a scummy approach!
If you have nothing to hide why would you be taking this approach?

If we do not get claims then how will we know anything? And dont say from night actions, because there is so little to be learnt from most night actions, unless it can be discussed properly
Surely forcing a claim is the most sensible way of getting a little info that we can potentially use going forward...

If we get a couple of claims or we see some real action then we will start to see who is making sense and who is looking scummy etc

Looks a lot like role fishing. How would knowing who is the doc, or the cop, ... at this stage help you as a townie? Pressuring multiple people just to get them to claim is harmful to town as it exposes town's PR without any positive repercussion. Also scum have a better idea what to fake-claim (or what not to) the more claims they get.

We'll get info from a combination of different things. Night actions, lynches, death, slips. A PR claim might be hard to fake later on, but at this stage it is useless to fish for claims.

First order of business UNVOTE aage for replying to my initial cry for help.
[...]
VOTE jfm10

Not valid. Bold your vote out.

I believe jfm.

Even if the scum kill him tonight, make THEM do the killing. If we lynch him and he is townie, then they are free to kill someone else tonight and we've lost 2.

Not sure what makes you believe him. Is it just your own flavor? The issue with not lynching him also is given how suspicious he acted town PRs could waste a night visiting him. And I'm not sure he would get killed because sometimes it's good for scum to keep someone fishy alive so town has to decide whether he was not killed because he was scum or because scum wanted to frame him.

That's a good plan, I don't want to see anyone out so fast, especially if he's truthful about being a protector.

Guardian angel fish, I wonder how that works? If he lives, we might find out.

I hate sounding like a newbie, but I'm sure there's an option for me to be notified when a thread I'm following get's updated. But, I just searched settings and control panel and can't find it. CC used to notify me when threads I followed got updated, but not lately.

Not exactly sure how that works but I believe you can subscribe to topics or forums to get notified about updates.

Question, when we lynch someone, do we find out if we were right or not? Do we find out anything?

There his a death scene where his role and flavor is given, a bit like the opening scene. Same for any night kill.

[jfm10]

I'm just worried 2 scums are going to vote him up at last minute and get him lynch. At least they'll have FoS pointed at them.

In my opinion all the scum have voted on me already so i wouldn't consider the hammer on me to be scum just a player that wants to move on with the game.
ragian is very quiet this game making me think he is town.Just so yous know.

[TX AG 90]

Not sure what makes you believe him. Is it just your own flavor?

I'm, not sure what you mean by Is it just your own flavor?

His story just seems to be too consistent to be scum.

On the other hand, he could be an Angel Fish AND scum, since we really don't know what flavor matches what role.

Also, if he is Scum, he is bad at this by soft claiming early. Unless he is going next level and wants us (me) to think he can't be scum because a scum would never do that, but is in reality a very good scum player acting like a bad scum player.

Basically, at this point, I have nothing to go on for anybody, chapcrap, jfm, Mets, Pinka, but instinct.

Maybe I should have gone with my 1st plan and just kicked back Day 1 and absorbed as much as possible. I feel now my contributions may be doing more harm than good.

[TX AG 90]

Right now I have placed people into 4 buckets:

Suspected Scum - chapcrap
Probable Town - ZaBeast, Pinka
Either convincing scum or Town - Mets, jfm
No Clue - everyone else

[ZaBeast]

@TX What I meant by that is I don't see how this claim should make him less scummy, unless you have in some way flavor in your role that would make you think an angel fish would be town. Very unlikely but you never know with the interwebbing roles (and it doesn't hurt to ask). Keep in mind in a game like this, there are no "strong" flavor claims like there would be in a mafia themed around a known universe (harry potter, LotR, ...) ik angel fish fits that protective claim pretty well, but either claim could have been made up based on the other.
About the soft claim, he had no reason to do this as town, so I don't see how you should see him as more town in light of that.

[aage]

@aage, how do you suggest that we move forward if you don't want jmf to claim? Whom would you like to hear a claim from? I see you and mets are voting for chapcrap. Care to elaborate or reiterate or anoter ate?

Sure. "Lowkey fishing for counterclaims to a vague roleclaim."
(Does 'repeate' count?)
His defense was "dont bandwagon me bro", as well as drawing a false dichotomy on my FoS towards Mets, so obviously I am keeping my vote on him. Since then he's said little, and none of it sense. He hasn't even bothered to respond to my post, even though he clearly reads them based on his comment to Tobi.
Several other people have made other arguments, some of which even hold water.
So yeah, I'd suggest you guys either shit or get off the pot and we proceed to look at chap et al. The metaphor is appropriate because this wagon on jfm is a shitshow, it's just bullying the guy into a fullclaim. BuJaber has already pointed most of the flaws out. Several people, much like you, Ragian, have thrown up their hands and said "well what do you suggest we do instead?" BuJ has tried pushing Mets, but nobody seems interested. Nobody seems to know what to do, and everyone is content to attack jfm for his premature claim - an action indicative of inexperience, not alignment - whilst we all wait for the fabled pro town hero.

There are several things I'd like to do instead. I'd like to push chapcrap to take a proper stand instead of constantly diverting the discussion away and ignoring people. I'd like to look at Pika's posts more closely, since he is extremely active and his posts are very long but don't seem to say much. I'd like to have another look at Mets - even though we share the view that this wagon is bad, the way he goes about showing it is not effective (and therefore kinda scummy) because he only pokes small holes in it one small post at a time without giving an alternative. I'd like to look at Skoffin, who doesn't even concern herself with discussion any more and simply calls for jfm's lynch - I suspect she's trying to avoid a Mitch situation by killing him off early. That's four people, but we don't really have time to crack down on four people, so I'm happy to start with the first on the list. Incidentally, my vote is already on him, so what are you waiting for?



I'm also gonna throw in this little gem, you guys can accuse me for putting words in your mouth all you like:

A note to jfm10: if you are town-sided (and telling the truth therefor), please do not further clarify your role unless pushed by general agreement to do so, i.e. unless you reach 7+ votes against you. To do otherwise would further hurt town.

@Tobikera ... I agree we should get someone to L-2 but your reason sucks.

I basically agreed with the L-2 strategy..

The agreed upon convention is that if you're at L-2, you reveal your role. If you don't, you will be pegged as anti-town and most likely lynched for anti-town behaviour.

I just wanted to get everyone to focus on one person, get them to L-2, and get some more info. Nothing personal. jfm10 seems to be everyone's player of choice, which I am unsure about, but to maintain my actual intent I will join that wagon.

UNVOTE
VOTE jfm10

Ok, so the convention is that we vote someone to L-2 and only then do they claim. Glad we cleared that up..

@jfm I agree with Tobi on the claim. Is there a reason to not say your species? It does not make sense to me. Your role (protective) is a lot more potent information than your species and you gave that up like it was a tictac. Are you just waiting for L-2?

[Sirius Kase]

First order of business, change my vote...

Not valid. Bold your vote out.

Thanks, I missed that.
UNVOTE aage
VOTE jfm10

Question, when we lynch someone, do we find out if we were right or not? Do we find out anything?

There his a death scene where his role and flavor is given, a bit like the opening scene. Same for any night kill.

Thanks for asking good questions, TX AG 90. I was wondering that myself. I'll try to ask more of them myself.

[Tobikera]

Nice try Tobi.

Thought I had you by the short and curlies there. Was not aware of the freshwater group referred to as Angel Fish....good to know.
That's the problem with using common names instead of scientific names, they change from place to place, and can be used for multiple groups.
Kudos to you.

[ZaBeast]

So yeah, I'd suggest you guys either shit or get off the pot and we proceed to look at chap et al. The metaphor is appropriate because this wagon on jfm is a shitshow, it's just bullying the guy into a fullclaim. BuJaber has already pointed most of the flaws out. Several people, much like you, Ragian, have thrown up their hands and said "well what do you suggest we do instead?" BuJ has tried pushing Mets, but nobody seems interested. Nobody seems to know what to do, and everyone is content to attack jfm for his premature claim - an action indicative of inexperience, not alignment - whilst we all wait for the fabled pro town hero.

Not only that. I voted for jfm when he admitted he wanted to out Ragian because he was good at pressing other players. He later admitted his vote was plain bandwagonning. He hasn't given me a reason to change my vote so far.

[Sirius Kase]

Something that may be of interest: You can find a lot more than you think by googling for mafia vocabulary. Just include the word "mafia" as one of the keywords. I don't like asking stupid questions in game because I don't want to admit to how inexperienced I am. But, now that the cat is out of the bag, I'll admit to googling like crazy, trying to understand what people are saying. I was lurking here because it's hard to speak up when you don't think you have anything to contribute, but now I know that was a bad strategy. Studying archived games has shown me that I don't want to look like a scummariner. It's just not my nature to ask questions in game. But, I'll say something.

[aage]

So yeah, I'd suggest you guys either shit or get off the pot and we proceed to look at chap et al. The metaphor is appropriate because this wagon on jfm is a shitshow, it's just bullying the guy into a fullclaim. BuJaber has already pointed most of the flaws out. Several people, much like you, Ragian, have thrown up their hands and said "well what do you suggest we do instead?" BuJ has tried pushing Mets, but nobody seems interested. Nobody seems to know what to do, and everyone is content to attack jfm for his premature claim - an action indicative of inexperience, not alignment - whilst we all wait for the fabled pro town hero.

Not only that. I voted for jfm when he admitted he wanted to out Ragian because he was good at pressing other players. He later admitted his vote was plain bandwagonning. He hasn't given me a reason to change my vote so far.

Tobi pulled the same stunt, but when I questioned him about it, you actually came to his defense. So... What gives?