What religion? (no flaming!)

[b.k. barunt]

Which is why the Lutheran Church is just Catholic Lite.

[Jenos Ridan]

I'm a Lutheran.
You know, Martin Luther.
Split from the catholic church.
pretty crazy shit.
but I guess being Lutheran isn't really any different than being catholic nowadays.

Being Lutheran myself, you got one fact wrong...
Luther didn't split from the Catholics, the Pope kicked him out.

Luther and his followers were kicked out. The differances helped start the Thirty-Years War (1618-1648). However, Martin Luther wasn't the only cat to tell the pope were to get off. Wesley and Calvin, I think, came before the so-called Reformation. Oh, then their was the Orthodox churches before them.
That got me wondering, how many churches got started because the Catholics were so ridged?

[Dariune]

Well i dont believe in the best Martial art, only in the best Martial artist.
I saw that same program. A friend of mine (who is a Thai Boxer) gave it to me.

As to the chinese soldiers fighting in the Japanese civil war? no they didnt.
Only the Shaolin. The Uno (i think) asked them over to help when the Uno Shogun saw how the Shaolin defended their temple against neighbouring tribes.
The Shaolin did and fought until the end of the war. However when the Shaolin refused to teach Japanese soldiers to fight as they do the Shaolin Monks were massacred on their way home.
I hate to say this, because (as with all Japanese Martial artists) people get offended but it was from watching the Shaolin monks that Ninjitsu (the shadow art) and Jujitsu (the warrior art) was formed.

Im sure your going to disagree with me, but so far every source i have found has confirmed that.

I do disagree. Because by your logic, Buddha (or who ever taught the shaolin at first) learned it from war vets who fought Alexander's Greek and Macedonian troops, who trained in what is now known as Pankration.
Seeing as how war is found everywhere, geographically, through-out history, people developed arts that suited their needs largely independent of outside influance apart from the caldron of battle. This principle applies to ALL arts, regardless of the oral traditions and 'historical research' coming out of the Dojo-Dojang-Kwoon or from Sensei-Sifu-Master's mouth.

At least, that would be the prudent estimation based on the observable data.

I would have been dissapointed if you hadnt disagreed.
However the history of the Shaolin dates back a little further than that.
The situation was that the indian Yogi's were travelling in order to better their meditation and yoga. The Shaolin were merely a tribe of people who prayed day and night and who happened to have a very nice mountain ripe for the picking. When the Yogi's visited China the Shaolin tribe copied the Yoga and started to do it every day. However when neighbouring tribes tried to take their land the Shaolin converted yoga into a fighting art. Roughly at the same time, the Japanese were using the Yari in combat quite commonly. A group of them cut the Yari down to make a very small Naginata (the Katana) and were unbeatable in combat. This group were the foundation for the Bishido warriors. Better known as the Samurai. The Japanese civil war broke out and it was every Shogun for themselves. Each Shogun ammased their armies which included the mighty Samurai warriors.

The Uno (i think) had seen the Shaolin warriors succesfully defending their home in China and requested their aid in the Japanese fight. The Shaolin accepted. Being unused to the very different form of fighting the Samurai were unprepared for the Shaolin. The Uno Shogun (again i think) called in a group of his Samurai and told them to mimic the Shaolin and learn their ways to which the Samurai refused. However what did occur was the assasins of Japan copied the Shaolin light foot and crane techniques to form Ninjitsu. The best fighters formed a group based on the Shaolin Cannon fist and weapons techniques to form Jujitsu.

We could debate this until we end up like Huckleberryhound's avatar, but my point is, were there is war, there are warriors, and where there are warriors, there are masters of combat who proceeded them, who learned the hard way, in the crusable called battle, what works and what doesn't work. Later, the expericenced recorded the techniques, others later expounded ,by way of experimentation and later battle experience, on them and several centuries later, we have Silat, Karate, Sombo, Capoeria, Arnis/Kali, Escrima, Jujitsu, Muay Thai, Pankration and Kung Fu. TThis is how the Martial Arts truelly developed. Again, the logical eestimation of the observed data.

Ah in that i agree. But what you say doesnt contradict my statement. Yes there have always been warriors and yes there have always been masters of that art. My point was Shaolin was what inspired some of these arts. But then again, Yoga inspired Shaolin.

My friend does Escrima. I would take it up but it would mean dropping Tai Chi and i like Tai Chi too much.

I have never even heard of the religions on the first page. Dariune where did yours begin? oh, and by the way I am a baptist

Mine began with me. I dont follow organised religions. I never have done. However i have always liked the idea that the earth is more than just a lump of rock. In fact i genuinly believe (regardless of how it may sound) that the planet is alive. I dont mean alive like us or like a cat or dog. But i believe the planet is a huge source of energy or has a spirit. We all live and feed off of the planet. Therefore i think that when we die our energy, soul, spirit, whatever is rejoined with the planet and the experiences our lives earned us are shared with the spirit of the planet or Gaia. I am not a deeply religious person and i dont pray or think about this until i am blue in the face. However, when asked, these are my beliefs

[Anarchist]

I believe that aswell,

it was highlighted in Final fantasy; the spirit within

[Dariune]

I believe that aswell,

it was highlighted in Final fantasy; the spirit within

Yes i saw that and to be honest i was a little uncomfortable with how close to my beliefs it got considering how rare it is to meet a like minded person.

[Anarchist]

having no organised faith,

Im pleasantly suprised with shows like bleach and inuyasha who highlight certain spiritual views that i agree with

[chewyman]

I'm an agnostic, I don't believe there is a God or that there isn't a God (or Gods). It's basically the 'religion' for those that can't make up their minds.

But in all seriousness, faith and logic are polar opposites. I don't have faith, all I have is logic. Logic cannot disprove faith and therefore I am forced to remain undecided for the rest of my life.

[b.k. barunt]

Don't forget the agnostic dyslexic insomniac, who lies awake all night wondering whether or not there really is a dog.

[Dariune]

Don't forget the agnostic dyslexic insomniac, who lies awake all night wondering whether there or not there really is a dog.

Hahahahaha

You should leave the flame forums more often, that was funny.

[mpmrunner]

I'm a Lutheran.
You know, Martin Luther.
Split from the catholic church.
pretty crazy shit.
but I guess being Lutheran isn't really any different than being catholic nowadays.

Being Lutheran myself, you got one fact wrong...
Luther didn't split from the Catholics, the Pope kicked him out.

My history isnt all that great so I apologize for the flaws everyone has found in my short explanation

[Jenos Ridan]

Ah in that i agree. But what you say doesnt contradict my statement. Yes there have always been warriors and yes there have always been masters of that art. My point was Shaolin was what inspired some of these arts. But then again, Yoga inspired Shaolin.

I just don't like the whole "If it weren't for [incert random art/person here] there wouldn't be any of your arts" mantra. Honestly, it is ignorant, presumsuous and just flat rude to spout off such half-truths. Such, cultures collide, sometimes, in battle and might discover that the enemy is better at something else, but mostly the ancient arts developed interally. I'll agree, influances can come from anywhere, but Jujitsu is as much uniquely Japanese as Kung Fu and Hwa Rang Do are distinctly Chinese and Korean, respectively.

[Dariune]

Ah in that i agree. But what you say doesnt contradict my statement. Yes there have always been warriors and yes there have always been masters of that art. My point was Shaolin was what inspired some of these arts. But then again, Yoga inspired Shaolin.

I just don't like the whole "If it weren't for [incert random art/person here] there wouldn't be any of your arts" mantra. Honestly, it is ignorant, presumsuous and just flat rude to spout off such half-truths. Such, cultures collide, sometimes, in battle and might discover that the enemy is better at something else, but mostly the ancient arts developed interally. I'll agree, influances can come from anywhere, but Jujitsu is as much uniquely Japanese as Kung Fu and Hwa Rang Do are distinctly Chinese and Korean, respectively.

Easy tiger, Im not saying Shaolin is the master Martial art nor am i claiming any superiority. You seem to be getting overly defensive. As i said, The Japanese liked the way the Shaolin fought and decided to develope two martial arts based on the moves they saw. Of course it is still Japanese. It was Inspired by the Shaolin, not created by. Nor is Jujitsu or Ninjitsu any less because of that situation.
However being a student of Shaolin, of course i am going to study its history. I dont get angry that Shaolin was based on Yoga. Infact im proud of that. Yoga is a very respectable art. It doesnt take anything away from Shaolin at all.

Now i may lose some credibility here, but it is written down in the journal of the emperor's commander of the time.
Im not bigging myself up or belitteling you. Infact i was trying to have an educated conversation about a subject we obvioudly both have a passion for as per your request in the PM you sent me.

Regardless, i propose we stop talking about this, its obviously upsetting you and that wasnt my intention. I like Jujitsu (except when im fighting against it.)

[Jenos Ridan]

Regardless, I propose we stop talking about this, its obviously upsetting you and that wasnt my intention. I like Jujitsu (except when im fighting against it.)

I'm not slamming you about this. I fell we can talk about this like the civilized men we proportedly claim to be. You have your view on the origins on the arts, fine. The influance is there, has to be at some point.

[2dimes]

I have heard the martial arts originated in Egypt so your both wrong.




The big problem with comparing arts is they are so different.

If you want to punch a board for 15 years until the bones in your fist are significantly denser and suitible for breaking a skull bone you need a hard style.

If you would prefer to develop your balance and sensitivity to a degree that you can evade and use your opponants own power against him you need a soft style.

However if a better fighter in either style confronts a lesser fighter in the other then it will apear that the style is responsible.

It's much more likely for a person to become a better fighter in the hard style because it's more combative, so as you learn it you will get to be a better fighter sooner. The problem being that for a lot of people as you age you develop arthritis instead of super strong bones and joints.

Also by it's nature the soft styles tend to bring about a more peacefull spirit. So you would be much more likely to choose to avoid conflict as you get better in a soft style. The problem being it takes 15 years before you have learned enought to actually start learning the art.

I think it should be obvious that shaolin had significant influence on all Japanese arts and I would agree that they would not exist in their current form with out it.

I also understand where that was a hudred or thousands of years ago so they have history and lineage of their own.

I think if you look at the pride in Japanese culture you would see how the people involved in their arts for a lifetime, would prefer to say there is no influence at all from the inferior Chinese. I also think any Japanese person would put more kung fu into training thier art than most non Japanese.

[Jenos Ridan]

I have heard the martial arts originated in Egypt so your both wrong.

And Egypt came from and alien called Ra, who then put a portal on earth to send his newfound slaves to a planet on the far side of the known universe..........

The big problem with comparing arts is they are so different.

If you want to punch a board for 15 years until the bones in your fist are significantly denser and suitible for breaking a skull bone you need a hard style.

If you would prefer to develop your balance and sensitivity to a degree that you can evade and use your opponants own power against him you need a soft style.

However if a better fighter in either style confronts a lesser fighter in the other then it will apear that the style is responsible.

It's much more likely for a person to become a better fighter in the hard style because it's more combative, so as you learn it you will get to be a better fighter sooner. The problem being that for a lot of people as you age you develop arthritis instead of super strong bones and joints.

Also by it's nature the soft styles tend to bring about a more peacefull spirit. So you would be much more likely to choose to avoid conflict as you get better in a soft style. The problem being it takes 15 years before you have learned enought to actually start learning the art.

I think it should be obvious that shaolin had significant influence on all Japanese arts and I would agree that they would not exist in their current form with out it.

I also understand where that was a hudred or thousands of years ago so they have history and lineage of their own.

I think if you look at the pride in Japanese culture you would see how the people involved in their arts for a lifetime, would prefer to say there is no influence at all from the inferior Chinese. I also think any Japanese person would put more kung fu into training thier art than most non Japanese.

I believe that while one art can, and sometimes do influance others, 9 times out of 10, the art in question was in development long before the outside influance came around. This is mostly because it is all based on human anatomy. Hence the similarities in most arts. Not denying that at some point, chinese arts influances others in japan and korea; it happened in okinawa with karate (which, in all likelyhood, existed before the merchants arived to show off their kung-fu).

[Anarchist]

I have read that kalarippayattu was the original martial art, which would be India.

[Dariune]

As has been said there is no original martial art. All cultures started developing martial arts as soon as they worked out how to make flint spears.

I was trying to give a bit of the history for three specific martial arts and point out how intersting it is that these three arts are so intwined.

As to a best Martial art? there isnt one. They suit different people. Due to us all having different personalities (therefore higher and lower threshholds for pain and willingness to inflict it) and different body shapes (for instance i am quite small and athletic so any art involving powerful strikes wouldnt be for me) it is impossible to say one art is the best.

However, due to differing amounts of dedication and of course natural skill and different instructors there are better martial artists.
But this is not really that related to the art.

[Jenos Ridan]

As has been said there is no original martial art. All cultures started developing martial arts as soon as they worked out how to make flint spears.

I agree. Finally, you post something that makes clear what you're trying to say.