How is there not a thread already about the woodward book?

[mookiemcgee]

errr... maybe it's cus the book isn't out yet. But the fake news network I'm listening to today won't shut up about:

Trump said sessions is a mental retard
Trump said session is a stupid southerner
Everyone working for the president (past and present) are quoted as saying... Trump is a professional liar, a fucking idiot, and a 5 years old

I guess it's not news since anyone paying attention knew this was true of trump after watching season 1 of the apprentice (2004)

[thegreekdog]

Get Neo, Sym, and spurgistan in here to see what populism has wrought.

[Symmetry]

Present!

It's probably because there's a ton of people writing books about Trump at the moment.

1 ) The felons, criminals, and potential convicts.
2 ) The people who've been fired, or quit, or were forced out because of Trump's dysfunction.
3 ) The elected officials who lost because they didn't back him.
4 ) The journalists who followed him before he was President.
5 ) The journalists who followed his campaign.
6 ) The journalists who were in the White House.
7 ) Every member of the Trump family smart enough to hire a ghost writer.
8 ) The ghost writers of every Trump family book.

This ain't exactly a tightly run ship, folks.

[Symmetry]

Just to be clear, that's just a short list of the kinds of insiders.

[Dukasaur]

The funniest part was the phone call:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/09/04/transcript-phone-call-between-president-trump-journalist-bob-woodward/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.15787fdb148a

First Trump says nobody told him that Woodward wanted an interview.

Then he admits that Lindsay Graham approached him about it, but then again says nobody told him.

Then K. Conway admits she had lunch with Woodward and discussed getting him an interview with Trump, but tries to imply that she was too demure to approach the President.

Precious!

[TA1LGUNN3R]

...Trump is a professional liar...

And that's different from any other politician how?

[Dukasaur]

...Trump is a professional liar...

And that's different from any other politician how?

All politicians lie, but most of them have enough conscience that they are ashamed when they get caught, or at least have enough common courtesy to pretend to be ashamed when they get caught. To me, this is the scariest thing about Trump, that he gets caught in very blatant lies on a regular basis and just shrugs as if to say, "who gives a shit?" No shame, no contrition, not even fake contrition.

Unfortunately, because it's working for him, there will be copycats. He may be the first major leader to be completely unconcerned when his lies are uncovered, but he won't be the last. I think we may be walking through the doorway into a world where facts are utterly irrelevant. As someone who has always believed that lies are temporary and the truth will win in the end, this new world scares me.

[thegreekdog]

...Trump is a professional liar...

And that's different from any other politician how?

All politicians lie, but most of them have enough conscience that they are ashamed when they get caught, or at least have enough common courtesy to pretend to be ashamed when they get caught. To me, this is the scariest thing about Trump, that he gets caught in very blatant lies on a regular basis and just shrugs as if to say, "who gives a shit?" No shame, no contrition, not even fake contrition.

Unfortunately, because it's working for him, there will be copycats. He may be the first major leader to be completely unconcerned when his lies are uncovered, but he won't be the last. I think we may be walking through the doorway into a world where facts are utterly irrelevant. As someone who has always believed that lies are temporary and the truth will win in the end, this new world scares me.

I agree... this is an excellent enunciation of what I'm also scared of.

[Serbia]

...Trump is a professional liar...

And that's different from any other politician how?

Don’t forget, one of Trump’s appeals was that he’s “not a politician”. So when he lies, his supporters can still somehow convince themselves it’s different.

[Symmetry]

Present!

It's probably because there's a ton of people writing books about Trump at the moment.

1 ) The felons, criminals, and potential convicts.
2 ) The people who've been fired, or quit, or were forced out because of Trump's dysfunction.
3 ) The elected officials who lost because they didn't back him.
4 ) The journalists who followed him before he was President.
5 ) The journalists who followed his campaign.
6 ) The journalists who were in the White House.
7 ) Every member of the Trump family smart enough to hire a ghost writer.
8 ) The ghost writers of every Trump family book.

This ain't exactly a tightly run ship, folks.

So that's a short list of insiders ( I forgot a few)

Here's the outsiders who are also writing books:

1 ) All the foreign leaders Trump has engaged with, or will engage with.
2 ) Every foreign journalist covering the White House.
3 ) All of the Ambassadors
4 ) Oh dear lord, a ton of lawyers.
5 ) Everyone who ever did business with Trump and got screwed.
6) The kids and women he sexually harassed.

[karel]

umm prolly cuz its all fake,yep thats it

[saxitoxin]

umm prolly cuz its all fake,yep thats it

+1

Strength Through Unity. Unity Through Trump.

They cannot divide us.

[armati]

Former UK Ambassador to Syria.

Interview with Ambassador Ford Part 1: Idlib and False Flag chemical Attacks
https://youtu.be/A5bBWRB0FJs

“Trump wants out(of syria), but he is being resisted by what I call “the permanent government of america”. ambassador Ford

This fellow is talking about Trumps challenges.

The Deep State Plot To Overthrow President Trump (7/31/2018)https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/
Sep 03 Traitors within the Gate or the Basic Problem with Coups Bob Moriarty 321gold

I am certain Trump was better than Hillary would have been, but Im still not sure if Trump is opposing the deep state or part of it, he is sure darn close to Israel, on the other hand he is speeding up the world reserve currency change by pissing off nations enough to drop the dollar.

That should end the neocons as they could no longer be funded, ending the american police state and policing the world.

I find it tuff to tell what he's doing.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

...Trump is a professional liar...

And that's different from any other politician how?

All politicians lie, but most of them have enough conscience that they are ashamed when they get caught, or at least have enough common courtesy to pretend to be ashamed when they get caught. To me, this is the scariest thing about Trump, that he gets caught in very blatant lies on a regular basis and just shrugs as if to say, "who gives a shit?" No shame, no contrition, not even fake contrition.

Unfortunately, because it's working for him, there will be copycats. He may be the first major leader to be completely unconcerned when his lies are uncovered, but he won't be the last. I think we may be walking through the doorway into a world where facts are utterly irrelevant. As someone who has always believed that lies are temporary and the truth will win in the end, this new world scares me.

What's worse, the enemy who bumbles around incompetently or the capable enemy who sidles beside you and convinces you of his good intentions with lies?

Americans have steadily been losing their rights for a couple generations because competent people with authoritarian ideologies were in power. Trump can't utter a word without the whole world bitching and moaning. And that's good. My only hope is that worse authoritarians like neoteny don't come to power.

[Neoteny]

Get Neo, Sym, and spurgistan in here to see what [fascist] populism has wrought.

[thegreekdog]

As Senator Sasse put it yesterday, the legislature has been consistently giving up its powers to the executive branch (and by extension the judicial branch). Thus any president has the wherewithal to do what he/she wants. President Obama's administration did lots of things without legislative approval that were authoritarian; but he was an intelligent, charismatic, and polite individual (and well-liked by the majority of the media).

[Neoteny]

There is a straight line from Clinton to Bush 2 to Obama to Trump when it comes to executive power. It's bad and I won't deny the responsibility of anyone involved.

[mookiemcgee]

From Today's New York Fake News Times...

The Times today is taking the rare step of publishing an anonymous Op-Ed essay. We have done so at the request of the author, a senior official in the Trump administration whose identity is known to us and whose job would be jeopardized by its disclosure. We believe publishing this essay anonymously is the only way to deliver an important perspective to our readers. We invite you to submit a question about the essay or our vetting process here.

President Trump is facing a test to his presidency unlike any faced by a modern American leader.

It’s not just that the special counsel looms large. Or that the country is bitterly divided over Mr. Trump’s leadership. Or even that his party might well lose the House to an opposition hellbent on his downfall.

The dilemma — which he does not fully grasp — is that many of the senior officials in his own administration are working diligently from within to frustrate parts of his agenda and his worst inclinations.

I would know. I am one of them.

To be clear, ours is not the popular “resistance” of the left. We want the administration to succeed and think that many of its policies have already made America safer and more prosperous.

But we believe our first duty is to this country, and the president continues to act in a manner that is detrimental to the health of our republic.

That is why many Trump appointees have vowed to do what we can to preserve our democratic institutions while thwarting Mr. Trump’s more misguided impulses until he is out of office.

The root of the problem is the president’s amorality. Anyone who works with him knows he is not moored to any discernible first principles that guide his decision making.

Although he was elected as a Republican, the president shows little affinity for ideals long espoused by conservatives: free minds, free markets and free people. At best, he has invoked these ideals in scripted settings. At worst, he has attacked them outright.

In addition to his mass-marketing of the notion that the press is the “enemy of the people,” President Trump’s impulses are generally anti-trade and anti-democratic.

Don’t get me wrong. There are bright spots that the near-ceaseless negative coverage of the administration fails to capture: effective deregulation, historic tax reform, a more robust military and more.

But these successes have come despite — not because of — the president’s leadership style, which is impetuous, adversarial, petty and ineffective.

From the White House to executive branch departments and agencies, senior officials will privately admit their daily disbelief at the commander in chief’s comments and actions. Most are working to insulate their operations from his whims.

Meetings with him veer off topic and off the rails, he engages in repetitive rants, and his impulsiveness results in half-baked, ill-informed and occasionally reckless decisions that have to be walked back.

“There is literally no telling whether he might change his mind from one minute to the next,” a top official complained to me recently, exasperated by an Oval Office meeting at which the president flip-flopped on a major policy decision he’d made only a week earlier.

The erratic behavior would be more concerning if it weren’t for unsung heroes in and around the White House. Some of his aides have been cast as villains by the media. But in private, they have gone to great lengths to keep bad decisions contained to the West Wing, though they are clearly not always successful.

It may be cold comfort in this chaotic era, but Americans should know that there are adults in the room. We fully recognize what is happening. And we are trying to do what’s right even when Donald Trump won’t.

The result is a two-track presidency.

Take foreign policy: In public and in private, President Trump shows a preference for autocrats and dictators, such as President Vladimir Putin of Russia and North Korea’s leader, Kim Jong-un, and displays little genuine appreciation for the ties that bind us to allied, like-minded nations.

Astute observers have noted, though, that the rest of the administration is operating on another track, one where countries like Russia are called out for meddling and punished accordingly, and where allies around the world are engaged as peers rather than ridiculed as rivals.

On Russia, for instance, the president was reluctant to expel so many of Mr. Putin’s spies as punishment for the poisoning of a former Russian spy in Britain. He complained for weeks about senior staff members letting him get boxed into further confrontation with Russia, and he expressed frustration that the United States continued to impose sanctions on the country for its malign behavior. But his national security team knew better — such actions had to be taken, to hold Moscow accountable.

This isn’t the work of the so-called deep state. It’s the work of the steady state.

Given the instability many witnessed, there were early whispers within the cabinet of invoking the 25th Amendment, which would start a complex process for removing the president. But no one wanted to precipitate a constitutional crisis. So we will do what we can to steer the administration in the right direction until — one way or another — it’s over.

The bigger concern is not what Mr. Trump has done to the presidency but rather what we as a nation have allowed him to do to us. We have sunk low with him and allowed our discourse to be stripped of civility.

Senator John McCain put it best in his farewell letter. All Americans should heed his words and break free of the tribalism trap, with the high aim of uniting through our shared values and love of this great nation.

We may no longer have Senator McCain. But we will always have his example — a lodestar for restoring honor to public life and our national dialogue. Mr. Trump may fear such honorable men, but we should revere them.

There is a quiet resistance within the administration of people choosing to put country first. But the real difference will be made by everyday citizens rising above politics, reaching across the aisle and resolving to shed the labels in favor of a single one: Americans.

[Dukasaur]

...Trump is a professional liar...

And that's different from any other politician how?

All politicians lie, but most of them have enough conscience that they are ashamed when they get caught, or at least have enough common courtesy to pretend to be ashamed when they get caught. To me, this is the scariest thing about Trump, that he gets caught in very blatant lies on a regular basis and just shrugs as if to say, "who gives a shit?" No shame, no contrition, not even fake contrition.

Unfortunately, because it's working for him, there will be copycats. He may be the first major leader to be completely unconcerned when his lies are uncovered, but he won't be the last. I think we may be walking through the doorway into a world where facts are utterly irrelevant. As someone who has always believed that lies are temporary and the truth will win in the end, this new world scares me.

What's worse, the enemy who bumbles around incompetently or the capable enemy who sidles beside you and convinces you of his good intentions with lies?

Americans have steadily been losing their rights for a couple generations because competent people with authoritarian ideologies were in power. Trump can't utter a word without the whole world bitching and moaning. And that's good. My only hope is that worse authoritarians like neoteny don't come to power.

I think you completely missed the point of my post.

I think the wanton disregard for truth and facts is a dangerous trend that transcends any actual policies promoted by Trump. Quite honestly, if you go by policy alone, I think the Bushes were vastly more evil than Trump, and even Obama was (debatably) more evil than Trump. Policies come and policies go; I'm not talking about those. What I'm talking about is his complete immunity to any fact-based correction, and this trend is vastly more dangerous than any policies he might enact.

Imagine that you spend weeks negotiating a raise or some other change in the terms of your work. On the day it's supposed to happen, your boss changes his mind, except instead of saying "sorry, I changed my mind" he just denies that the conversation took place. When you present him with documentary evidence that he agreed to your proposal, he just gives you a smirk and a shrug and carries on as if nothing had happened.

Imagine being arrested for a crime you didn't commit. The cop tells blatant lies on the witness stand. Your lawyer cross-examines him and pokes giant holes in his narrative, proving that he's lying. Instead of changing his testimony, the cop gives you a smirk and a shrug and carries on with his narrative. A few days later, with a smirk and a shrug, the judge sentences you to hard time.

Imagine that your doctor misdiagnoses your illness and puts you on the wrong treatment, which makes your illness much worse. Months later you find out what you really have. Outraged you go back to the doctor and demand that he fix it or give you a settlement for your needless suffering or both. Instead he repeats over and over that he's done a tremendous job treating you, and that lots of people call him up and tell him what a tremendous job he did treating you. When you present him with facts, test results, hard evidence, he doesn't even bother looking at it. With a smirk and a shrug he sends you on your way.

If these things don't scare you then I don't know what will.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

...Trump is a professional liar...

And that's different from any other politician how?

All politicians lie, but most of them have enough conscience that they are ashamed when they get caught, or at least have enough common courtesy to pretend to be ashamed when they get caught. To me, this is the scariest thing about Trump, that he gets caught in very blatant lies on a regular basis and just shrugs as if to say, "who gives a shit?" No shame, no contrition, not even fake contrition.

Unfortunately, because it's working for him, there will be copycats. He may be the first major leader to be completely unconcerned when his lies are uncovered, but he won't be the last. I think we may be walking through the doorway into a world where facts are utterly irrelevant. As someone who has always believed that lies are temporary and the truth will win in the end, this new world scares me.

What's worse, the enemy who bumbles around incompetently or the capable enemy who sidles beside you and convinces you of his good intentions with lies?

Americans have steadily been losing their rights for a couple generations because competent people with authoritarian ideologies were in power. Trump can't utter a word without the whole world bitching and moaning. And that's good. My only hope is that worse authoritarians like neoteny don't come to power.

I think you completely missed the point of my post.

I think the wanton disregard for truth and facts is a dangerous trend that transcends any actual policies promoted by Trump. Quite honestly, if you go by policy alone, I think the Bushes were vastly more evil than Trump, and even Obama was (debatably) more evil than Trump. Policies come and policies go; I'm not talking about those. What I'm talking about is his complete immunity to any fact-based correction, and this trend is vastly more dangerous than any policies he might enact.

Imagine that you spend weeks negotiating a raise or some other change in the terms of your work. On the day it's supposed to happen, your boss changes his mind, except instead of saying "sorry, I changed my mind" he just denies that the conversation took place. When you present him with documentary evidence that he agreed to your proposal, he just gives you a smirk and a shrug and carries on as if nothing had happened.

Imagine being arrested for a crime you didn't commit. The cop tells blatant lies on the witness stand. Your lawyer cross-examines him and pokes giant holes in his narrative, proving that he's lying. Instead of changing his testimony, the cop gives you a smirk and a shrug and carries on with his narrative. A few days later, with a smirk and a shrug, the judge sentences you to hard time.

Imagine that your doctor misdiagnoses your illness and puts you on the wrong treatment, which makes your illness much worse. Months later you find out what you really have. Outraged you go back to the doctor and demand that he fix it or give you a settlement for your needless suffering or both. Instead he repeats over and over that he's done a tremendous job treating you, and that lots of people call him up and tell him what a tremendous job he did treating you. When you present him with facts, test results, hard evidence, he doesn't even bother looking at it. With a smirk and a shrug he sends you on your way.

If these things don't scare you then I don't know what will.

These things already happen every day and have for years. That's why documentation, "having it on paper" with notaries and such, is so important. It predates the u.s. political class and it's why the law should be held in high esteem, although like all things is limited. I'm not sure why you think this is anything new. Where Trump makes a mockery of truth, the Romans made a mockery of casus belli (and by extension, truth) by maneuvering their enemies like the Galls into situations whereby rome was justified in going to war, yet everyone knew and those responsible never faced penalties.

Much as i disagree with neoteny in many things, he's right when he starts on about police brutality. They regularly lie and commit false witness by charging you with crimes (and get away with it with little more than a smirk and a shrug). My only issue is that he always seems focused on the racial bias; i don't care one bit about the racial bias, it still happens to everybody and shouldn't.

I mean, if you're worried that such moral or ethics lapses will become acceptable and par for the course, i would argue that it's already been acceptable, you've just been blind to it. Instead of "wanton diregard of truth and facts," it's "necessary evil." People always accept the necessary evils their side must do in order to prevail or for the greater good or whatever. For the last 70ish years it's been American imperialism, but that's hardly the only moral lapse. The socialists want to diregard the fact that, no matter how they couch it in humanism, their ideal governance is a tyranny of the majority.

It's just the way it is.

[Dukasaur]

...Trump is a professional liar...

And that's different from any other politician how?

All politicians lie, but most of them have enough conscience that they are ashamed when they get caught, or at least have enough common courtesy to pretend to be ashamed when they get caught. To me, this is the scariest thing about Trump, that he gets caught in very blatant lies on a regular basis and just shrugs as if to say, "who gives a shit?" No shame, no contrition, not even fake contrition.

Unfortunately, because it's working for him, there will be copycats. He may be the first major leader to be completely unconcerned when his lies are uncovered, but he won't be the last. I think we may be walking through the doorway into a world where facts are utterly irrelevant. As someone who has always believed that lies are temporary and the truth will win in the end, this new world scares me.

What's worse, the enemy who bumbles around incompetently or the capable enemy who sidles beside you and convinces you of his good intentions with lies?

Americans have steadily been losing their rights for a couple generations because competent people with authoritarian ideologies were in power. Trump can't utter a word without the whole world bitching and moaning. And that's good. My only hope is that worse authoritarians like neoteny don't come to power.

I think you completely missed the point of my post.

I think the wanton disregard for truth and facts is a dangerous trend that transcends any actual policies promoted by Trump. Quite honestly, if you go by policy alone, I think the Bushes were vastly more evil than Trump, and even Obama was (debatably) more evil than Trump. Policies come and policies go; I'm not talking about those. What I'm talking about is his complete immunity to any fact-based correction, and this trend is vastly more dangerous than any policies he might enact.

Imagine that you spend weeks negotiating a raise or some other change in the terms of your work. On the day it's supposed to happen, your boss changes his mind, except instead of saying "sorry, I changed my mind" he just denies that the conversation took place. When you present him with documentary evidence that he agreed to your proposal, he just gives you a smirk and a shrug and carries on as if nothing had happened.

Imagine being arrested for a crime you didn't commit. The cop tells blatant lies on the witness stand. Your lawyer cross-examines him and pokes giant holes in his narrative, proving that he's lying. Instead of changing his testimony, the cop gives you a smirk and a shrug and carries on with his narrative. A few days later, with a smirk and a shrug, the judge sentences you to hard time.

Imagine that your doctor misdiagnoses your illness and puts you on the wrong treatment, which makes your illness much worse. Months later you find out what you really have. Outraged you go back to the doctor and demand that he fix it or give you a settlement for your needless suffering or both. Instead he repeats over and over that he's done a tremendous job treating you, and that lots of people call him up and tell him what a tremendous job he did treating you. When you present him with facts, test results, hard evidence, he doesn't even bother looking at it. With a smirk and a shrug he sends you on your way.

If these things don't scare you then I don't know what will.

These things already happen every day and have for years. That's why documentation, "having it on paper" with notaries and such, is so important. It predates the u.s. political class and it's why the law should be held in high esteem, although like all things is limited. I'm not sure why you think this is anything new. Where Trump makes a mockery of truth, the Romans made a mockery of casus belli (and by extension, truth) by maneuvering their enemies like the Galls into situations whereby rome was justified in going to war, yet everyone knew and those responsible never faced penalties.

Much as i disagree with neoteny in many things, he's right when he starts on about police brutality. They regularly lie and commit false witness by charging you with crimes (and get away with it with little more than a smirk and a shrug). My only issue is that he always seems focused on the racial bias; i don't care one bit about the racial bias, it still happens to everybody and shouldn't.

I mean, if you're worried that such moral or ethics lapses will become acceptable and par for the course, i would argue that it's already been acceptable, you've just been blind to it. Instead of "wanton diregard of truth and facts," it's "necessary evil." People always accept the necessary evils their side must do in order to prevail or for the greater good or whatever. For the last 70ish years it's been American imperialism, but that's hardly the only moral lapse. The socialists want to diregard the fact that, no matter how they couch it in humanism, their ideal governance is a tyranny of the majority.

It's just the way it is.

Okay. I get your point. Dishonesty has always been with us and always will be, and those with power are more likely to get away with it than those without.

My personal impression is that I have never seen it this bad and we've reached a new high point (low point?). I can think of many examples of evil and dishonest men, but I can't think of anyone else so casually unconcerned about their lies being exposed as Trump is. Still, without any way of quantifying this, it can't really be proved or disproved. Rather than flog a dead horse, I'll just leave it at that.

[jonesthecurl]

Also: someone did something similar before, so meh, it's OK, Trump's fine?

[TA1LGUNN3R]

I'm prone to pessimism- i could very well be cherry-picking the worst examples throughout history in a sort of survivorship-bias (like music of yesterday is so much better than today because all the hits are the ones you hear). I won't say you're necessarily wrong. You've got considerably more time to have seen the western political landscape than i have, and i would consider that such things are maybe cyclical, like how prudishness seems to alternate between generations. Trump's disregard for the truth is certainly troubling, but i don't think it's unique.

[Neoteny]

Much as i disagree with neoteny in many things, he's right when he starts on about police brutality.

I started with AnCaps but I don't actually recall all your politics, and redneck might be too harsh, but you get the sentiment.