Homosexuals of Conquer Club, Please Identify Yourselves

[Dukasaur]

Remain eternally vigilant against ALL Nazi wannabes in all their socialist forms!

Why not in it's Right wing Nationalist form- the kind it's most well-known for?

Because that's Phatscotty's side - you can't expect him to have the self-awareness to be able to handle that, do you?

Describe for me please, how the national socialist workers party of Germany was right wing. If you convince me you are (most) correct, I will agree with yas and give props.

I know it's difficult for the pea-brain to follow a simple thread, but "right wing nationalist form" was specifically and clearly stated. But keep obfuscating and tap-dancing...it's still the only thing your arguments have going for them.

Clearly stated.... Where? Got a link? I note you declined to Briefly describe a few of the facets and instead side step into tapdancing into an undocumented reference. Sloppy work mate

I suspect Woody thought it was not worth the trouble to go into detail on something so obvious. I don't want it to end like that, so I'll take up your challenge.

"Describe for me please, how the national socialist workers party of Germany was right wing."

Gladly.

Right-wing characteristics of the national socialist workers party of Germany

• Primarily defined itself as a defender of the "Fatherland" and by its hatred of foreign lands.
• Primary vote-getting mechanism was the demonization of a persecuted minority.
• Obsessed with racial purity. Prosecuted mixed-race marriages.
• Measured the success of the nation primarily by its military might and ability to project power (as opposed to the liberal notion that the success of a nation is defined by the health and happiness of its residents.)
• Believed in the concept of "Life unworthy of life" leading to a policy of euthanization or forced sterilization of people with serious mental and physical disabilities (as opposed to the liberal notion that all people deserve the best life we can give them.)
• Persecuted many key minorities, not just the demonized Jews but gypsies, Catholics, blacks, prostitutes, the disabled (partly as noted in the previous point), Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals, anarchists, pacifists and more. Long-term plans never realized called for the extermination of the Slavs after the Jews had been dealt with. A few Slavic nations had a foretaste of this policy (Czechs, Belarussians, Bosnians) but it was mainly a concept still in its infancy when the Nazis lost.
• Abolished constitutional protection for the rights of the criminally accused. Introduced ex post facto punishments, something universally abhorred by all liberal nations. Introduced "preventive custody", another universally-abhorred legal concept, where pretty much anyone can be imprisoned without trial based on the notion that the might be on his way to commit a crime. Abolished the independence of the judiciary, making a mockery of justice.
• "The Old Ways Are Best" One of the less-publicized facets of Nazism was the long-term goal to eliminate "foreign" Christianity and return to the old German pantheon. Another idea that didn't get much past infancy before the Nazis were defeated, but would have been much more prominent had they won.

[notyou2]

Sounds pretty right wing to me.

[tzor]

Not all homosexuals are paedophiles, some hetro sexuals are paedophiles.

I've taken multiple training courses on this topic. Pedophiles can be anyone, literally anyone. Male/Female, Single/Married, Heterosexual/Homosexual. They do tend to have one thing in common; they are some of the nicest people you may ever know; that's how they gain the confidence of people to give them access to vulnerable children in the first place.

[tzor]

Right-wing characteristics of the national socialist workers party of Germany

If that is your definition of "right" then the Democratic Party of the United States (during the same time period) was "right wing."
There you have it; right is left / left is right / up is down / down is up / north is south / south is north.
Such is the logic of liberals.
Fascinating.

Now there is a difference between "national Socialism" and "'International Socialism" ... the basic size of the governing unit.

(Or is it? After all NAZI Germany wanted to expand it's power to the entire world, so it really was "international" in scope after all, only with Germany as the international authority.)



George Bernard Shaw ... apparent Right Winger.

[riskllama]

Not all homosexuals are paedophiles, some hetro sexuals are paedophiles.

I've taken multiple training courses on this topic.

show us your certificate.

[tzor]

show us your certificate.

I don't feel like looking it up and scanning it.

I took Virtus training as a part of being in a church choir in a Roman Catholic Church (I am now a lector in the same church).
Then there was a different set of training that I took as Grand Knight of a Knights of Columbus Council, I forget the name of that organizational training.

The later course included the correct procedure for allowing a group of boys / girls to use a public restroom in order to avoid abuse even from older children to younger children.

[riskllama]

so, do you feel this pedophile training course was useful? what's the going rate for a course like this, tzor?

[Thorthoth]

so, do you feel this pedophile training course was useful? what's the going rate for a course like this, tzor?

llamo is hoping there is a need-based scholarship available.

[riskllama]

you just ruined it, vegetable lasagne. holy f*ck you're an idiot...

[Symmetry]

show us your certificate.

I don't feel like looking it up and scanning it.

I took Virtus training as a part of being in a church choir in a Roman Catholic Church (I am now a lector in the same church).
Then there was a different set of training that I took as Grand Knight of a Knights of Columbus Council, I forget the name of that organizational training.

The later course included the correct procedure for allowing a group of boys / girls to use a public restroom in order to avoid abuse even from older children to younger children.

Do you really think that the Catholic church's approach to prevention of child abuse is right? I don't want to be another anti-Catholic guy here, but they don't seem like the right people to get training from, to put it gently

[BoganGod]

you just ruined it, vegetable lasagne. holy f*ck you're an idiot...

Reported for insulting idiots. Putting them in the same category. You bigot.

[Thorthoth]

you just ruined it, vegetable lasagne. holy f*ck you're an idiot...

Reported for insulting idiots. Putting them in the same category. You bigot.

Wha?! lol...

btw, DogNagob, your tea sig is looking sharp.

[Dukasaur]

Right-wing characteristics of the national socialist workers party of Germany

If that is your definition of "right" then the Democratic Party of the United States (during the same time period) was "right wing."

Yeah, the Democratic Party at that time was in a very right-wing phase. Certainly nowhere near the level of the Nazis, that would be an absurd claim for you to make. Negroes and Hispanics in the U.S. may have been oppressed, but they sure as hell weren't being slaughtered by the millions.

Nor were Jehovah's witnesses. Homosexuals may have gone to jail, but they didn't get the death penalty. Inter-racial marriages may have been frowned upon, but they didn't get you 15 years hard labour.

The press was never crushed, nor did freedom of speech cease to exist. Ex post facto punishments were not inflicted, nor did warrant-less searches or arrests become commonplace.

There was a really racist undertone to the war with Japan, but not so with the war against Germany and Italy. The kind of wholesale xenophobia that the Nazis displayed towards everyone was never common in the U.S. Most foreigners living in the U.S. continued to feel welcome, with the sole exception of the Japanese. When it was time to invade the Vichy territories in Algeria and Morocco, the operation was put under American leadership primarily because the Americans were considered by most of the world to be evenhanded in dealing with everyone, even their enemies, and it was felt (correctly) that antifascist factions in the Vichy government would be more willing to co-operate with the Americans than with the British or the Free French.

In fact, the more examples I think about, the more I realize that your statement really is trying to draw a connection based on a relatively small number of similarities versus a large number of differences.

[Woodruff]

Remain eternally vigilant against ALL Nazi wannabes in all their socialist forms!

Why not in it's Right wing Nationalist form- the kind it's most well-known for?

Because that's Phatscotty's side - you can't expect him to have the self-awareness to be able to handle that, do you?

Describe for me please, how the national socialist workers party of Germany was right wing. If you convince me you are (most) correct, I will agree with yas and give props.

I know it's difficult for the pea-brain to follow a simple thread, but "right wing nationalist form" was specifically and clearly stated. But keep obfuscating and tap-dancing...it's still the only thing your arguments have going for them.

Clearly stated.... Where? Got a link? I note you declined to Briefly describe a few of the facets and instead side step into tapdancing into an undocumented reference. Sloppy work mate

You mean "where within this exact post that I'm replying to", you mean? Are you genuinely unable to read the very post you're responding to?

This isn't difficult stuff Phatscotty...it's right up there ^^^^ in the quote by Symmetry in this post.

[Symmetry]

Scotty's grasp of history isn't great.

[notyou2]

show us your certificate.

I don't feel like looking it up and scanning it.

I took Virtus training as a part of being in a church choir in a Roman Catholic Church (I am now a lector in the same church).
Then there was a different set of training that I took as Grand Knight of a Knights of Columbus Council, I forget the name of that organizational training.

The later course included the correct procedure for allowing a group of boys / girls to use a public restroom in order to avoid abuse even from older children to younger children.

Makes sense. The Catholic Church is the undisputed expert in the field of pedophilia. Head of the class.

[tzor]

Do you really think that the Catholic church's approach to prevention of child abuse is right? I don't want to be another anti-Catholic guy here, but they don't seem like the right people to get training from, to put it gently

I don't know as I don't have any data for recent abuse cases. The Catholic Church has also been rapidly changing. Lay single and married people are taking more responsibility for youth activities but that doesn't mean the risks are lower; they are the same. Guidelines and awareness is one element of the problem.

Conversely, the training from the Knights of Columbus (which used to have a "Squires" program) is a lot like the case with groups like the Boy and Girl Scouts (as opposed to the church which mostly has events and programs where adults and children interact). This is closer to the procedures that teachers are currently being taught.

Remember that the Catholic Church was rocked by those scandals. That shock brought in the lawyers. Those lawyers imposed these procedures so that they would look like morons the next time they represent their religious clients in court. Of course it's like any hierarchy, it's probably poorly implemented and if it does work it's a miracle.

[tzor]

Makes sense. The Catholic Church is the undisputed expert in the field of pedophilia. Head of the class.

Actually that's been debunked pretty well. Link

Were it not for the way the problem of clergy sexual abuse has been socially defined, the public would know that the problem is hardly confined to the Catholic community. Indeed, as Jenkins has written, “In reality, Catholic clergy are not necessarily represented in the sexual abuse phenomenon at a rate higher than or even equal to their numbers in the clerical profession as a whole.” The biggest difference between the Catholic and Protestant clergy in relation to this problem is due mostly to reporting procedures: there is no counterpart among Protestants to the highly centralized data keeping done by the Catholic Church, hence it is often difficult to make comparisons between the clergy of the two religions.

[notyou2]

Makes sense. The Catholic Church is the undisputed expert in the field of pedophilia. Head of the class.

Actually that's been debunked pretty well. Link

Were it not for the way the problem of clergy sexual abuse has been socially defined, the public would know that the problem is hardly confined to the Catholic community. Indeed, as Jenkins has written, “In reality, Catholic clergy are not necessarily represented in the sexual abuse phenomenon at a rate higher than or even equal to their numbers in the clerical profession as a whole.” The biggest difference between the Catholic and Protestant clergy in relation to this problem is due mostly to reporting procedures: there is no counterpart among Protestants to the highly centralized data keeping done by the Catholic Church, hence it is often difficult to make comparisons between the clergy of the two religions.

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid

[Dukasaur]

Makes sense. The Catholic Church is the undisputed expert in the field of pedophilia. Head of the class.

Actually that's been debunked pretty well. Link

Were it not for the way the problem of clergy sexual abuse has been socially defined, the public would know that the problem is hardly confined to the Catholic community. Indeed, as Jenkins has written, “In reality, Catholic clergy are not necessarily represented in the sexual abuse phenomenon at a rate higher than or even equal to their numbers in the clerical profession as a whole.” The biggest difference between the Catholic and Protestant clergy in relation to this problem is due mostly to reporting procedures: there is no counterpart among Protestants to the highly centralized data keeping done by the Catholic Church, hence it is often difficult to make comparisons between the clergy of the two religions.

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid

It may be difficult for you to let go of your cherished stereotypes, but tzor is correct on at least two counts. First, as the quoted article says, it is quite possible that the problem is equally common among all clerical regimes; the Catholic Church is just an easier and more prominent target than most. Second, in the last ten years the Church has made enormous efforts to eradicate the problem. It may have been swept under the rug 20 years ago, but times change, and everything I've read shows vigorous efforts over the last decade to root the problem out.

[Thorthoth]

Makes sense. The Catholic Church is the undisputed expert in the field of pedophilia. Head of the class.

Actually that's been debunked pretty well. Link

Were it not for the way the problem of clergy sexual abuse has been socially defined, the public would know that the problem is hardly confined to the Catholic community. Indeed, as Jenkins has written, “In reality, Catholic clergy are not necessarily represented in the sexual abuse phenomenon at a rate higher than or even equal to their numbers in the clerical profession as a whole.” The biggest difference between the Catholic and Protestant clergy in relation to this problem is due mostly to reporting procedures: there is no counterpart among Protestants to the highly centralized data keeping done by the Catholic Church, hence it is often difficult to make comparisons between the clergy of the two religions.

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid

It may be difficult for you to let go of your cherished stereotypes, but tzor is correct on at least two counts. First, as the quoted article says, it is quite possible that the problem is equally common among all clerical regimes; the Catholic Church is just an easier and more prominent target than most. Second, in the last ten years the Church has made enormous efforts to eradicate the problem. It may have been swept under the rug 20 years ago, but times change, and everything I've read shows vigorous efforts over the last decade to root the problem out.

Keep playing Forum Games, Duk. That is where you really excel.

[tzor]

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid

I don't drink ... Kool-Aid

[notyou2]

Duk, do you not believe that the fact that the Catholic church does not allow it's clergy to marry exacerbates the problem? Most other Christian denominations allow their clergy to marry. Did it ever dawn on you that the Catholic clergy attracts sexual deviants for many different reasons. Some feel that god will change them. Some are gay, so choose celibacy. For whatever reason they join, controlling their urges becomes increasingly difficult and sooner or later they succumb.

I am not saying this doesn't occur in other faiths, or in everyday life, it's just that this particular faith was a refuge for many. Times certainly do change, and often for the better. I believe the church has progressed as have many others as well. But, it seems the RC Church vehemently defended itself and did all in it's power for many years to thwart complaints and reparations, which to me is despicable when the evidence is staggering.

[Dukasaur]

Duk, do you not believe that the fact that the Catholic church does not allow it's clergy to marry exacerbates the problem? Most other Christian denominations allow their clergy to marry. Did it ever dawn on you that the Catholic clergy attracts sexual deviants for many different reasons. Some feel that god will change them. Some are gay, so choose celibacy. For whatever reason they join, controlling their urges becomes increasingly difficult and sooner or later they succumb.

I am not saying this doesn't occur in other faiths, or in everyday life, it's just that this particular faith was a refuge for many. Times certainly do change, and often for the better. I believe the church has progressed as have many others as well. But, it seems the RC Church vehemently defended itself and did all in it's power for many years to thwart complaints and reparations, which to me is despicable when the evidence is staggering.

I don't deny that historically the Church swept the problem under the rug. Just that times change, and they are working hard not to sweep it under the rug any more, so I think instead of snickers and innuendo about the past they deserve credit for finally moving forward. So that's an answer to part of your post.

As far as reparations, I'm sympathetic. I think people dredging up the distant past demand compensation for every wrong that was ever done is just compounding those wrongs. The criminal law usually has a statute of limitations for most crimes and I think civil law and moral law should too. We've all suffered various abuses from others in our lives. If they can still be fixed in some way then by all means lets make the perps pay and fix these problems. But if the problem is so far back that it can't be fixed or is no longer having an active impact then maybe it's time to let it go. In many cases we are not even trying to set things right, we are just demanding revenge, and one of the first things I learned in school is that two wrongs don't make a right. So that's my second point.

Now, I turn to your first point. Do I think clerical celibacy exacerbates the problem? Probably, to some degree, but how much? I can't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I suspect the difference is small. Everything I've read on the subject indicates that while some sexual predators are repressed or undersexed, most are not. Many sexual predators are married men who have a healthy and boisterous sexual relationship with their wife. Whatever drives them to prey on youngsters, it does not seem to be, in most cases, lack of sex. I've known several victims of sexual exploitation, and I think 3 out of 4 were abused by their father or uncle or some other married man who was not doing it for lack of other sexual outlets. So, while I reiterate that I'm not an expert, I find it very plausible that the overall rate of sexual deviancy in the Catholic Church is not dramatically higher than in other faiths. It's just that due to its huge size and visibility it's an easy target to hit. It's a case of "you'll find more bad apples in a warehouse of apples than at your corner store."

[Symmetry]

Do you really think that the Catholic church's approach to prevention of child abuse is right? I don't want to be another anti-Catholic guy here, but they don't seem like the right people to get training from, to put it gently

I don't know as I don't have any data for recent abuse cases. The Catholic Church has also been rapidly changing. Lay single and married people are taking more responsibility for youth activities but that doesn't mean the risks are lower; they are the same. Guidelines and awareness is one element of the problem.

Conversely, the training from the Knights of Columbus (which used to have a "Squires" program) is a lot like the case with groups like the Boy and Girl Scouts (as opposed to the church which mostly has events and programs where adults and children interact). This is closer to the procedures that teachers are currently being taught.

Remember that the Catholic Church was rocked by those scandals. That shock brought in the lawyers. Those lawyers imposed these procedures so that they would look like morons the next time they represent their religious clients in court. Of course it's like any hierarchy, it's probably poorly implemented and if it does work it's a miracle.

I don't know, to be fair, but it seems like the kinds of benefits of clergy were part of the problem. I genuinely think it's a good thing to see parts of lay orthodoxy become more important, but there are still major figures within the church who are only just being brought to account, Cardinal Pell in Australia, for example.

I guess I'm a little sceptical though- there are, at least in the UK, courses that are secular available on how to teach and safeguard children.