Waiting For Series 7

[riskllama]

i liked the pretty elf ladies...

[Dukasaur]

Not really. LotR is a classic, but suffers in its moral simplicity. Sure, it's a great story, following Frodo through his trek into despair, but it's black and white. You always know that the good guys will ultimately prevail.

Actually, that's far from the truth. Yes, the Dark Lord is defeated and the Ring is destroyed, but people don't just go to being happy and whole. Frodo never overcomes his melancholy and sails off to the Undying Lands. The elves are nothing but sadness; everything about them is a slow fading and waning. The dwarves are less numberous, the Ents are headed towards extinction. Man is the only species that is rising, but he is a more banal and less majestic version of his Numenorean ancestor. One day, it is said, even Tom Bombadil will sing no more.

It's far from black and white. It is as complex as life itself; a sad and wistful look at how bright and promising things were in the morning of your youth, followed by one realization after another that tomorrow will never be as bold as yesterday.

That isn't what I'm taking about. That's the setting. The trilogy was always meant to be the history of a past era (middle era preceding this one), so the exodus and extinction of non human races is expected. That's world building.

I meant the actual plot. About the only thing that stands out is the temptation of Boromir.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "stands out." Do you mean that's the only part that you find interesting? I just don't know what to say to that. I guess it's subjective and if that's how you feel then that's how you feel.

To me, LOTR is not one plot. It's a whole library of different stories woven together. Sure, the story of the War of the Ring is what ties it all together, but there are at least a dozen stories that are fascinating in their own right. Really, I see the overall story as a frame-tale. All of the following are interesting tales in their own right:

• The fall from grace of Saruman
• The story of the awakening and last hurrah of the Ents
• The glorious re-awakening from dotage of Theoden and his final great adventure
• The triple love story of Aragorn-Arwen, Eowyn-Aragorn, Faramir-Eowyn
• The corruption of the Shire and its subsequent cleansing
• The fall of the House of Steward and the madness of Denethor
• The adventure story as seen from Sam's perspective, almost completely oblivious to the concerns of the great warlords, knowing only that he must keep his beloved master alive through thick and thin
• The story of Gimli's conversion from Elf-hater to Elf-lover, and his lifelong friendship with Legolas
• The coming-of-age tales of Merry and Pippin, and their different but parallel roads to knighthood

That's not even an exhaustive list, but it's certainly enough. You can read those stories independently and ignore the rest of the book and have a whole different experience.

Many times I read LOTR only from Theoden's awakening to Theoden's death. That's the most compelling of the tales to me, and it's a complete and powerful story. After probably 100 reads, I still cry at the death of Theoden. I don't know how anyone can go through that and not be moved. And that entire story, a world in itself, is only tangentially related to the whole War of the Ring thing.

[Maxleod]

Liv Tyler was hot as an elf.

[Symmetry]

Not really. LotR is a classic, but suffers in its moral simplicity. Sure, it's a great story, following Frodo through his trek into despair, but it's black and white. You always know that the good guys will ultimately prevail.

Actually, that's far from the truth. Yes, the Dark Lord is defeated and the Ring is destroyed, but people don't just go to being happy and whole. Frodo never overcomes his melancholy and sails off to the Undying Lands. The elves are nothing but sadness; everything about them is a slow fading and waning. The dwarves are less numberous, the Ents are headed towards extinction. Man is the only species that is rising, but he is a more banal and less majestic version of his Numenorean ancestor. One day, it is said, even Tom Bombadil will sing no more.

It's far from black and white. It is as complex as life itself; a sad and wistful look at how bright and promising things were in the morning of your youth, followed by one realization after another that tomorrow will never be as bold as yesterday.

That isn't what I'm taking about. That's the setting. The trilogy was always meant to be the history of a past era (middle era preceding this one), so the exodus and extinction of non human races is expected. That's world building.

I meant the actual plot. About the only thing that stands out is the temptation of Boromir.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "stands out." Do you mean that's the only part that you find interesting? I just don't know what to say to that. I guess it's subjective and if that's how you feel then that's how you feel.

To me, LOTR is not one plot. It's a whole library of different stories woven together. Sure, the story of the War of the Ring is what ties it all together, but there are at least a dozen stories that are fascinating in their own right. Really, I see the overall story as a frame-tale. All of the following are interesting tales in their own right:

• The fall from grace of Saruman
• The story of the awakening and last hurrah of the Ents
• The glorious re-awakening from dotage of Theoden and his final great adventure
• The triple love story of Aragorn-Arwen, Eowyn-Aragorn, Faramir-Eowyn
• The corruption of the Shire and its subsequent cleansing
• The fall of the House of Steward and the madness of Denethor
• The adventure story as seen from Sam's perspective, almost completely oblivious to the concerns of the great warlords, knowing only that he must keep his beloved master alive through thick and thin
• The story of Gimli's conversion from Elf-hater to Elf-lover, and his lifelong friendship with Legolas
• The coming-of-age tales of Merry and Pippin, and their different but parallel roads to knighthood

That's not even an exhaustive list, but it's certainly enough. You can read those stories independently and ignore the rest of the book and have a whole different experience.

Many times I read LOTR only from Theoden's awakening to Theoden's death. That's the most compelling of the tales to me, and it's a complete and powerful story. After probably 100 reads, I still cry at the death of Theoden. I don't know how anyone can go through that and not be moved. And that entire story, a world in itself, is only tangentially related to the whole War of the Ring thing.

I think you're maybe a bit more into it than I am. There are better books out there.

But yeah, it's a story about a world. Only Frank Herbert seems close to what Tolkien was doing.

[Bentelbow]

Asimov had a fairly large universe with many stories set in it too. For a series of books with bucketloads of characters that are frequently killed off, David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series is similar in style to GoT.

[Thorthoth]

Asimov had a fairly large universe with many stories set in it too. For a series of books with bucketloads of characters that are frequently killed off, David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series is similar in style to GoT.

Chung Kuo chicken?

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Not really. LotR is a classic, but suffers in its moral simplicity. Sure, it's a great story, following Frodo through his trek into despair, but it's black and white. You always know that the good guys will ultimately prevail.

Actually, that's far from the truth. Yes, the Dark Lord is defeated and the Ring is destroyed, but people don't just go to being happy and whole. Frodo never overcomes his melancholy and sails off to the Undying Lands. The elves are nothing but sadness; everything about them is a slow fading and waning. The dwarves are less numberous, the Ents are headed towards extinction. Man is the only species that is rising, but he is a more banal and less majestic version of his Numenorean ancestor. One day, it is said, even Tom Bombadil will sing no more.

It's far from black and white. It is as complex as life itself; a sad and wistful look at how bright and promising things were in the morning of your youth, followed by one realization after another that tomorrow will never be as bold as yesterday.

That isn't what I'm taking about. That's the setting. The trilogy was always meant to be the history of a past era (middle era preceding this one), so the exodus and extinction of non human races is expected. That's world building.

I meant the actual plot. About the only thing that stands out is the temptation of Boromir.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "stands out." Do you mean that's the only part that you find interesting? I just don't know what to say to that. I guess it's subjective and if that's how you feel then that's how you feel.

To me, LOTR is not one plot. It's a whole library of different stories woven together. Sure, the story of the War of the Ring is what ties it all together, but there are at least a dozen stories that are fascinating in their own right. Really, I see the overall story as a frame-tale. All of the following are interesting tales in their own right:

• The fall from grace of Saruman
• The story of the awakening and last hurrah of the Ents
• The glorious re-awakening from dotage of Theoden and his final great adventure
• The triple love story of Aragorn-Arwen, Eowyn-Aragorn, Faramir-Eowyn
• The corruption of the Shire and its subsequent cleansing
• The fall of the House of Steward and the madness of Denethor
• The adventure story as seen from Sam's perspective, almost completely oblivious to the concerns of the great warlords, knowing only that he must keep his beloved master alive through thick and thin
• The story of Gimli's conversion from Elf-hater to Elf-lover, and his lifelong friendship with Legolas
• The coming-of-age tales of Merry and Pippin, and their different but parallel roads to knighthood

That's not even an exhaustive list, but it's certainly enough. You can read those stories independently and ignore the rest of the book and have a whole different experience.

Many times I read LOTR only from Theoden's awakening to Theoden's death. That's the most compelling of the tales to me, and it's a complete and powerful story. After probably 100 reads, I still cry at the death of Theoden. I don't know how anyone can go through that and not be moved. And that entire story, a world in itself, is only tangentially related to the whole War of the Ring thing.

I meant as far as moral complexity, Boromir's fall was the only thing that was similar to ASOIAF. I suppose Faramir's actions in the wake of his brother's death would also qualify.

You make very good points. My original post though was to rebut soresloth's comment that ASOIAF was LotR beefed up. They aren't similar at all. If you read ASOIAF you would understand. Soresloth's comment was something one would say who only has a passing knowledge of fantasy. I would say Sanderson's work, like his Stormlight Archives would be more similar to a beefed up LotR.

-TG

[betiko]

Can you guys stop talking about tolkien here?

The last season of game of thrones feels like it was 2 years ago, in the normal calendar season 7 should be over already.. so that s the good news... even if it s 7 episodes, they are comming starting tonight.

#teamlittlefinger (although I'm worried Sansa has taken the upper hand on him, she's too much of his soft spot..)

So Robert's bastard is back I guess, he s now the only baratheon left?
The tyrells and martels are pretty much out of the picture now?..

[waauw]

Can you guys stop talking about tolkien here?

The last season of game of thrones feels like it was 2 years ago, in the normal calendar season 7 should be over already.. so that s the good news... even if it s 7 episodes, they are comming starting tonight.

#teamlittlefinger (although I'm worried Sansa has taken the upper hand on him, she's too much of his soft spot..)

So Robert's bastard is back I guess, he s now the only baratheon left?
The tyrells and martels are pretty much out of the picture now?..

I fear they ruined Littlefinger last season and are going to completely trash him this season.

Go Jaime!

[Symmetry]

Can you guys stop talking about tolkien here?

The last season of game of thrones feels like it was 2 years ago, in the normal calendar season 7 should be over already.. so that s the good news... even if it s 7 episodes, they are comming starting tonight.

#teamlittlefinger (although I'm worried Sansa has taken the upper hand on him, she's too much of his soft spot..)

So Robert's bastard is back I guess, he s now the only baratheon left?
The tyrells and martels are pretty much out of the picture now?..

I fear they ruined Littlefinger last season and are going to completely trash him this season.

Go Jaime!

Littlefinger isn't really a great character in the books either beyond the first. He's kind of a plot device. I think the show makes more of him as a kind of devil on the shoulder of everyone.

I don't think he'll survive the season. He was born to fly.

[riskllama]

lol, born to fly. good one.

[Symmetry]

Asimov had a fairly large universe with many stories set in it too. For a series of books with bucketloads of characters that are frequently killed off, David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series is similar in style to GoT.

Asimov was an ideas man and his characters were just there to express his ideas. I'm not trying to knock the guy, but he never really got characters for me. I'd be hard pressed to think of a character in Asimov's books that can be described without reference to their sci-fi role in the plot.

[riskllama]

what about Steve, the robot? that guy was alrite...